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PvP Prestige system revamp, pvp souls gone and more.Follow

#1 Jan 10 2012 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
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"PVP planar attunement & Prestige system revamp and more!

Last but definitely not least we have a number PVP improvements coming with this patch focused on improving a player’s PVP leveling experience while still keeping the matches as competitive as possible. New level 50 players who are placed in both ranked and non ranked matches will have their base stats automatically bolstered to a minimum level, allowing them to be more than just a speed bump for a higher level player.

For existing PVP players, Items purchased from the Prestige store will get the same improvements as the rest of the game, making sure that the jump in power between each set of items is more consistent. In addition we are removing the prestige rank requirements from many of the items, which will give players more freedom when choosing to purchase / upgrade PVP equipment.

Speaking of ranks we will be adjusting the Prestige Rank system to have significantly more ranks, players will have their old rank automatically mapped to the new rank. With these new Ranks come new rewards, including costume versions of PVP armor sets, Planar Attunement Points, and more.

Finally we will be doing away with our existing PVP Souls. Moving forward we want PVP players to be able to play the soul combination they want to play and not have to worry about sacrificing soul points to obtain PVP bonuses. Instead we have taken many of the popular bonuses & abilities from these soul trees and placed them in a NEW planar attunement tree specifically focused on PVP." -Gersh_Trion
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#2 Jan 10 2012 at 8:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Trion just took Biowares idea of a bolster system and put it on steroids. TOR's bolster system stops at 50 and geared 50's vs non geared = [predictable result]

Trion just took a system they already had and applied it past 50. Say good bye to queue times because it is about to become instant. No more waiting for ranked matches.
#3 Jan 10 2012 at 11:30 PM Rating: Good
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This outwardly sounds like a good change, though I'm concerned about having to devote PA points to PvP utilities instead of soul points... PA points are MUCH more difficult to reassign and are needed for PvE as well...
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#4 Jan 10 2012 at 11:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
This outwardly sounds like a good change, though I'm concerned about having to devote PA points to PvP utilities instead of soul points... PA points are MUCH more difficult to reassign and are needed for PvE as well...


You play a game where one archeatype can play 8 souls and have 5 roles with 3 souls a piece. Please don't sound like the guys on the forums who are stuck in TOR mode where dual spec is beyond their technology.

These guys design game code faster then I can drink. The amount of info in 1.7 like always does not make any sense how they pulled it off from 11/16/2011 to today.

Zam is going to literally have to update their entire 45+ database thanks to this patch. This is all stuff Blizzard told us for years was not even remotely possible and these guys are doing it in about a month and a half.

Whoever writes Rift off as a failed game needs to give me the number to the guy who is selling them drugs because I want some.
#5 Jan 11 2012 at 12:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Puremallace wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
This outwardly sounds like a good change, though I'm concerned about having to devote PA points to PvP utilities instead of soul points... PA points are MUCH more difficult to reassign and are needed for PvE as well...


You play a game where one archeatype can play 8 souls and have 5 roles with 3 souls a piece. Please don't sound like the guys on the forums who are stuck in TOR mode where dual spec is beyond their technology.

These guys design game code faster then I can drink. The amount of info in 1.7 like always does not make any sense how they pulled it off from 11/16/2011 to today.

Zam is going to literally have to update their entire 45+ database thanks to this patch. This is all stuff Blizzard told us for years was not even remotely possible and these guys are doing it in about a month and a half.

Whoever writes Rift off as a failed game needs to give me the number to the guy who is selling them drugs because I want some.


Where did all that come from?

I said it sounded like a good change but I was concerned about one aspect of it due to how PA works and the prohibitive nature of changing your PA points once assigned
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#6 Jan 11 2012 at 1:10 AM Rating: Decent
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At first glance, I wasn't really all that interested in a shift from PvP soul -> PA because I have neither the time nor the inclination to grind PA xp. But then I thought about it a little more and realized that none of my rogue's builds use the PvP soul for anything more than Break Free anyway, so being able to get more out of a PA matrix than I do out of the PvP soul will be a good thing in my eyes.

I'm iffy on the bolster system for level 50 but I'll have to wait and see how it pans out in the grand scheme of things. If it's dynamic and adjusts to the average rank of the enemy team or something similar, it might be fine. If it's a static boost for rank 1 players to give them a leg up until they can get their first tier of gear under their belt, that might be fine too. If it goes beyond that, I think it would be kind of silly.
#7 Jan 11 2012 at 1:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well I can definitely say that as a fresh 50 right now, pvp is insanely frustrating. You don't stand even the remotest chance against someone 6+ ranks above you (aptly described above as a speed bump) which leads to playing in an environment that isn't fun.

And yes yes, I can hear it already, "QQ moar n00b - get dat presteeg." I get it, it's meant to be a reward for people who have devoted a lot of time and effort in to pvp. But when you're just starting out, all you can see ahead of you is a grind that puts Korean MMOs to shame filled with hours upon hours of you playing a game and not having fun (which seems like it'd be missing the point).

Removing that barrier with the bolster mechanic as well as eliminating the ranks altogether (but not the gear, which I assume still requires the tier progression) means that a new 50 can gear up relatively quickly and maybe not feel like they're being punished while doing it. I really hope it works.

Let me elaborate about my concern over the PA attachment here though. When you have one of your roles devoted to pvp (certainly not unreasonable) that role includes your pvp soul, usually for Break Free (maybe Detaunt too) which you have to sacrifice points in your primary souls to acquire. So you lose some functionality in order to have some necessary pvp utility. Ok, cool. But what if we take out the pvp soul and move it into the PA system. Now you're using EXP for pvp utility instead, and you aren't able to turn it off when you don't want it anymore (unless you have a ton of money).

Let's take the example of someone who raids AND pvps. They need their PA xp for PvE progression... but now they also need it for PvP viability, and they can't realistically switch between the two. So even though it initially appears to be the same as before (sacrifice of some class functionality for pvp utility) the result is a lot more permanent when you can't just push a button to role change out of it.

Edited, Jan 11th 2012 1:36am by Callinon
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#8 Jan 11 2012 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Source: http://forums.riftgame.com/public-test-shard/291157-upcoming-1-7-endgame-improvements-11.html#post3518400

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Morning everyone,

So lots of PVP questions over the past evening, so its pretty obvious that everyone wants to see more details on those changes. Bad news is I don't have those details for you this morning, good news is that Elrar and Archonix will be working on a more detailed post to go out hopefully today or tommrow. Which with any luck will be accompanied by a PTS update so you can actually see more of the changes.

I do have a couple of small bits of info I can help with

We're still looking closely at the item power jumps between tiers especially between raid 1 relics and raid 2 rare items. In addition we'll be starting in on more detailed hand tuning of items which should work out some of the kinks.

We're still working on the final values for bolstering new level 50 players. Our goal is to bring them up to a more competitive level but not take away the benifits of earning PVP gear

Players won't loose any progress in the rank conversion, your old rank will map to the new rank and you should still have access to all of the things you had previously

PA for PVP is in a very rough form right now we're still very early in development which is why we want to get it out there with details as fast as possible for feedback.

PVP players will actually get PA points for gaining PVP ranks, so if your a high rank player the day you log in you'll have a stack of PA to spend. You won't get 100% of the points you need to fill the PA tree however. We're also working on ways for players to convert that excess favor into PA XP tokens as well.


Thanks!
-Gersh
#9 Jan 11 2012 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Well I can definitely say that as a fresh 50 right now, pvp is insanely frustrating. You don't stand even the remotest chance against someone 6+ ranks above you (aptly described above as a speed bump) which leads to playing in an environment that isn't fun.

And yes yes, I can hear it already, "QQ moar n00b - get dat presteeg." I get it, it's meant to be a reward for people who have devoted a lot of time and effort in to pvp. But when you're just starting out, all you can see ahead of you is a grind that puts Korean MMOs to shame filled with hours upon hours of you playing a game and not having fun (which seems like it'd be missing the point).

Removing that barrier with the bolster mechanic as well as eliminating the ranks altogether (but not the gear, which I assume still requires the tier progression) means that a new 50 can gear up relatively quickly and maybe not feel like they're being punished while doing it. I really hope it works.


I think, first of all, that a lot of your concerns are entirely valid. I have a rank 3 rogue that I progressed when the rank cap was 6, and a rank 5 (almost 6) rogue that I got to rank 3 also while the cap was rank 6, took a break from the game for a while, and came back after the cap had been raised to rank 8. Between the underperformance of rogues at the time and the rank difference, I know well some of the frustrations associated with lower rank PvP. I've been beat down and blown up more times than I can count.

From my current understanding, the bolster mechanic will only apply to rank 1 characters. (May also apply to rank 2, I haven't seen any specifics) to give them a bit of a break while they're getting their first full set of PvP gear together. That seems reasonable to me.

At the same time, I saw those lower ranks as an opportunity to learn as much as I could about what works and what doesn't. The margin for error is lower and the outcome of your decisions is actually more visible on higher ranked players. Even if I couldn't kill them, I could say, "Okay, that didn't work at all," or "that guy only lived because of his gear because I outmaneuvered him at every turn." I appreciate that not everyone shares my point of view on the issue which is why I'm not winding up the "way to cater to casuals and scrubs!!11!" rhetoric, but it wasn't all bad. I think a big part of the reason for these changes now is because a new tier of gear is coming. If folks thought it was bad now, wait and see what it feels like to be rank 1 vs. rank 10.

Quote:
Let me elaborate about my concern over the PA attachment here though. When you have one of your roles devoted to pvp (certainly not unreasonable) that role includes your pvp soul, usually for Break Free (maybe Detaunt too) which you have to sacrifice points in your primary souls to acquire. So you lose some functionality in order to have some necessary pvp utility. Ok, cool. But what if we take out the pvp soul and move it into the PA system. Now you're using EXP for pvp utility instead, and you aren't able to turn it off when you don't want it anymore (unless you have a ton of money).


A lot of people have been running builds with no use of the PvP soul, or the PvP soul in their build but 0 points invested for Break Free, but also because their build of choice really only made use of two other souls. For example, my cleric doesn't use her PvP soul at all. She's shaman/justicar/warden. My rogue uses the PvP soul with 0 points in Infiltrator. 51 SIN/15 BD/0 INF for the second CC break.

One of the complaints about the PvP soul is that for a lot of people and a lot of builds, it just doesn't offer enough to warrant investing points into. Shifting it to PA means a couple of things. One is that the calling-specific abilities will probably be done away with. Trion MIGHT have the functionality in the PA system to offer calling-specific PA matrices, but I'm not counting on it.

If you look at the current PA system with the planar attunements, typically the first one you unlock is the one to open the type of rift associated with that plane. For the PvP matrix, replace that with Break Free. From there on out, you'd be looking at maybe a very small boost to valor here or a very small increase to damage done vs. other players there, but not something Joe Casual needs to fill out because they feel it's mandatory.

I think in a lot of cases, people look at grinding PA as something they "have" to do, which is not what it was implemented to represent. It's a perk system, not a mandatory progression system. Of course, when it comes to MMOs, if you give someone a 6 month soul sucking grind that offers a performance boost of 1% as a reward, people will say they "have" to do it, they'll kvetch about it every step of the way, but they'll still do it.

I think there are enough people whose interest lies mainly in PvP that they'll welcome the PvP matrix. People who split their time amongst a variety of activities in-game might resent it slightly, but overall I think it's a reasonable solution to the "PvP souls are useless" issue you see pop up from time to time.
#10 Jan 11 2012 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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So for those not sued to the system here is how it works now.

Rank 1-4 get their own bracket
Rank 5-8 get their own

Problem is obvious. You just split you playerbase, so simple math dictates you just doubled the queue times. My guess how it will work.

If a Rank 1-4 gets stuck in a warfront with Rank 5-8 they get bolstered atleast up to Rank 5 type stats.
#11 Jan 11 2012 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Puremallace wrote:
So for those not sued to the system here is how it works now.

Rank 1-4 get their own bracket
Rank 5-8 get their own

Problem is obvious. You just split you playerbase, so simple math dictates you just doubled the queue times. My guess how it will work.

If a Rank 1-4 gets stuck in a warfront with Rank 5-8 they get bolstered atleast up to Rank 5 type stats.


The rank matching is not hard coded. It tries to put together ranked matches 1-4 and 5-8, but it's just like the premade queuing system...if it can't get you into a ranked match within a certain span of time, it just throws you in with whatever is available. If it was a hard-coded 1-4 and 5-8, there would be no need for a bolster mechanic because rank 1 v rank 4 is manageable, as is rank 5 v 8. The bolster system will serve to assist fresh 50s with no PvP gear at all to be on a slightly more competitive footing, but a rank 8 is still going to roll them with the quickness.
#12 Jan 12 2012 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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If anything noone can not say Trion is not willing to fix a issue

Source: http://forums.riftgame.com/public-test-shard/291110-gear-buffs-too-big-25.html#post3521157

Quote:
Morning everyone,

Been a busy couple of days sorting through everyone's feedback, we knew this would be a contraversial change but it's also one we feel fairly strongly about. I've sat down with our design leads & item designers and got a few updates / answers to questsions.

Right now the team is focused on making adjustments and getting the rest of the new features up to PTS, but we should be seeing a larger more detailed post on the changes (along with some revisons) early next week.

I also want to re-iterate that the hand tuning process is going to take a decent chunk of time, so you don't immediately see item X change don't immediately assume its not being adjusted.

Thanks
-Gersh

Why are you changing item power progression

So first I want to be clear, we're not changing the power of items just to get more people through our raid content. Yes, these changes have the added benifit of making some of the harder content more accessible, but the item changes were made to address a more core problem across our entire endgame that only gets worse as we released new content.

As it stands right now on live our gear progression sort of looks like this

LEVEL 50 --> CHRONICLE --> EXPERT1 ------> EXPERT T2 ----------> RAID 1 -------------------------> RAID 2

As you progress through the content the item power grows in significant leaps, not only does this make it harder for earlier players to progress through content in PVE, it also causes problems with things like PVP balance.

With the changes we're looking to get things to look more like this

LEVEL 50 --------> CHRONICLES -----------------> EXPERTS -----------------> RAID 1 -----------------> RAID 2

This results in an overall better experience for all of our endgame players, gear upgrades are more consistant, players in general get better rewards, and it doesn't become progressively worse to gear up new players each time we add new content, since the gaps no longer grow on a harsh curve.

Another nice side effect of this change is it helps make our various tiers of PVP players a bit more competitive, since PVP matches PVE gear in progression there is also not as massive of a gap between the lower PVP players and the Rank 8 ones.

RELIC vs EPIC items across content tiers

Another really important question I want to answer is where we intend Relics to compare across Tiers. First off we very much want to move away from the idea that having 100% coverage of availible RELICS are required to complete the next tier of content. That was never our intent..... Relic Items are a reward for extra effort up and beyond the normal progression, and intended for those people who play the content first / more then what is needed for the normal progression. Ultimately you should be able to do a couple of bosses in the next raid without a single Relic from the previous tier. However players with Relics will definately have an advantage moving into the next raid. They won't have to gear up as much to take on harder bosses and they will be able to progress through the content faster, and thus get to the best gear in the next raid sooner.

Now that being said while we wanted to reduce the gap between EPIC and RELIC we didn't really want it to be as tight as it is on PTS today. Our Raid Lead and Item Designers have been tweaking the general power ranges so that Relics are always an upgrade in the existing tier, but also have a pretty decent lifespan into the next tier as well. With that in mind they threw me some example 2H weapons so people could see where we are going

Current LIVE weapons
Lineup-Original.jpg

Current PTS weapons
Lineup-Current-PTS.jpg

Weapons after next round of changes
Lineup-Proposed.jpg

As you can see there is still some definate and clear upgrades as players move from R1 EPIC -> R1 RELIC -> R1 EPIC -> R1 RELIC. We've also added additional information to tooltips such as Weapon DPS (the amount of damage this weapon adds to most abilities) so its clearer to players what those extra DPS actually equate to.

Ultimately the choice to replace a relic is always going to be harder then replacing an EPIC. We don't want all that hard work from the previous tier to just go in the dumpster when new content is released, while still making sure there are immediate and desireable upgrades in the new content.

Further hand tuning of items

We've got alot of work ahead of us comparing and tuning items, we will be paying special attention to items at the TOP TIER of the game... So items from Raid 1, Raid 2, and Rank 8 will be getting extra special attention to make sure that the progression feels good. This includes some limited work on items with procs as well.

There will occasionally be items from previous content tiers that remain best in slot for one reason or another, sometimes thats intended and other times it's a happy accident and we're ok with that. It gives people a reason to go back to older content, or some rewards to shoot for while helping new guild mates gear up. That being said it will always be the case that the vast majority of items in the next tier will become your new best in slot gear.

Difficulty of content & Encounters

One last thing I want to mention is that we're not just upgrading items and making everything way easier. We will be going through and making a few selective changes to existing content in both Expert, Master, and Raid zones. While you shouldn't expect to see a huge increase in difficulty we will do some minor adjustments to monster DMG / HP to account for some of the item progression changes.

Cleric Items & FOCUS

For Cleric players I want to assure you we're not quite done with item changes. Yes we did add focus in on many healer items in an attempt to reduce the number of sets a cleric needs (Tank/DPS/Healer). This also means we'll be going back to some of the older items with focus currently on live and bringing them more in line with the items we just tacked focus onto.

Last edited by Gersh_Trion; Today at 12:45 PM.

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#13 Jan 12 2012 at 5:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Puremallace wrote:


Zam is going to literally have to update their entire 45+ database thanks to this patch. This is all stuff Blizzard told us for years was not even remotely possible and these guys are doing it in about a month and a half.



No problems, as we update whenever Trion releases data, and when y'all add your discovery logs to it to make it awesomer.

As for whatever Blizzard has said, it's tremendously unfair to ever judge what one company says against what any other company says. Game development is very organic, and priorities can shift often. It's like comparing what the governments of two different countries do: there's too many dependent variables.
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#14 Jan 13 2012 at 11:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Calthine wrote:
Puremallace wrote:


Zam is going to literally have to update their entire 45+ database thanks to this patch. This is all stuff Blizzard told us for years was not even remotely possible and these guys are doing it in about a month and a half.



No problems, as we update whenever Trion releases data, and when y'all add your discovery logs to it to make it awesomer.

As for whatever Blizzard has said, it's tremendously unfair to ever judge what one company says against what any other company says. Game development is very organic, and priorities can shift often. It's like comparing what the governments of two different countries do: there's too many dependent variables.


Aye, and don't forget that fantastic little detail that the farther you progress into a project, the more difficult it becomes to alter. WoW has seven-plus years of original code, patch code, hackfixes and other annoyances that no doubt get in the way of actually getting things done.

This sounds like a fantastic change to me. One of the things that really turned me off to Rift recently was the PvP grind. I (finally) hit rank 3 (which took far longer than it should have because I won a grand total of 4 matches going from 2->3) only to discover that I was mistaken about the set requirements and could only get off-pieces. I know that the new system won't automagically let me get the rest of the set, but I'd rather play for a night to get one piece than play for the better part of a week to get five.

As for moving PvP souls to PA, this is great in my book. Trion already has the capability to make PA trees calling-specific (just compare the Warrior Air tree to the Mage Air tree; they're similar but with different stats for each calling), so I wouldn't be suprised to see a lot of the class-specific abilities getting put into PA in place of the Rift abilities and teleports. I know that on my Warrior I only used the PvP soul occasionally for Break Free (ie 0 points in it). It'll be nice to have it all the time -- even in PvE (Break Free works on quite a few boss abilities).
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