Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Cleric Tank buildFollow

#1 Mar 20 2011 at 3:50 AM Rating: Decent
1 post
http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=10rna.EuRsqeekRR.Mcd.x

Heavy in Justicar with bonuses from Shaman and Druid. Thoughts appreciated!
#2 Mar 20 2011 at 6:32 PM Rating: Decent
Repressed Memories
******
20,566 posts
Full 51 in justicar and at least 8 in Shaman is pretty standard. Variants for the third soul include going 7 points into purifier for the 6% shields (procs on your passive healing) or going 5 points into sentinel for the spell pwoer bonus and throwing the leftover 2 into shaman to grab the strength buff.

You have the right idea, and it will be a very effective tanking build.
#3 Mar 29 2011 at 7:06 AM Rating: Decent
13 posts
I feel that Forced to Kneel (and Humility, for that matter) along with Vengeful Justice and Sovereignty are fairly useless to a tank. I've been getting by just fine without any of them... and those points could be better spent elsewhere. My tank spec uses a similar Shaman backing, though, so I agree with about 85% of your setup. Here's what I'm working with at lv37:

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00rno.VhRsqxezoo.Mcb.Vz

If you feel that Dark Harbor's benefits aren't worth the 6 pts to get to it, then by all means, scrap Cabalist for something else. I find the extra resistance quite helpful, though. Aside from that, it's mostly the same as what you're rocking right now.

Just Defense is awfully tempting, though...

Edited, Mar 29th 2011 9:07am by haliphax
____________________________
Helsing / Defiant Cleric / Carrion Shard (PvP)
#4 Apr 16 2011 at 12:11 AM Rating: Decent
3 posts
Does Thick Skinned (Shaman) stack with Shield of Faith (Justicar)?
#5 Apr 16 2011 at 12:53 AM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Quote:
Does Thick Skinned (Shaman) stack with Shield of Faith (Justicar)?


As far as I know yes. Every single Cleric tank build takes both talents so it would be unusual if Trion decided to make them mutually exclusive.
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#6 Apr 16 2011 at 6:24 AM Rating: Decent
13 posts
I find the shaman soul as a whole kind of a waste to use with tanking. I've seen tons of builds where they put points into the 3% damage reduction, but looking at it realistically that's not much mitigation. The purifier soul offers much more damage mitigation as well as a curse/disease/poison removal. This is the build i've been using, breaking the mold.

Edited, Apr 16th 2011 8:29am by Pimpinabox
#7 Apr 16 2011 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Quote:
I find the shaman soul as a whole kind of a waste to use with tanking. I've seen tons of builds where they put points into the 3% damage reduction, but looking at it realistically that's not much mitigation. The purifier soul offers much more damage mitigation as well as a curse/disease/poison removal.


Your forgetting +10% healing done to the tank AND a great shield that adds threat due to causing damage to all that attack you. And yes as for tanking, Clerics should be adding Purifier as well, at the very lest for it's shield (the Druid shield is garbage). Also no tank should ever have to remove it's own poisons, that's what your healers are there for.
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#8 Apr 16 2011 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
13 posts
delindsay90210 wrote:

Your forgetting +10% healing done to the tank AND a great shield that adds threat due to causing damage to all that attack you. And yes as for tanking, Clerics should be adding Purifier as well, at the very lest for it's shield (the Druid shield is garbage). Also no tank should ever have to remove it's own poisons, that's what your healers are there for.


I'm not forgetting the 10% healing done, I am however saying that the mitigation provided via puri outweighs that 10% healing, not to mention that shield is pretty much garbage compared to what you get from purifier. I've never had a problem keeping aggro so if your citing that as a reason to use this soul over another thats silly. I kept druid over shaman because you need to put more points into shaman for it to be worth something, while i can leave druid empty and have a healing pet or put 2 and get a mediocre shield. As for you calling the shield garbage, I disagree, its not a great shield as it only absorbs phys damage, but at this point (I'm 35) I take almost solely phys damage as a tank.

Edit:
Point is, you spent 7 points to receive and extra 10% healing and mitigate 3% damage. Let me run some numbers by you. Lets assume in a 30 second period you've received healing for 2000, you've just received an extra 200 healing, you've been hit for 2000, its been reduced to 1940 damage. For those seven points you're getting an extra 260 life gain, while I'm getting 830.

Edited, Apr 16th 2011 8:07pm by Pimpinabox
#9 Apr 16 2011 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Quote:
I am however saying that the mitigation provided via puri outweighs that 10% healing, not to mention that shield is pretty much garbage compared to what you get from purifier.


The shield absorbs almost identical damage as the untalented Puri shield while at the same time causing more threat and doing a tiny amount of damage to all attackers while it's up. As for your 2000 heal in 30sec, my Puri spec heals more than that in 3sec, and I guarantee you will take more than 2000hp damage in 30 sec on a boss fight. The Druid shield is identical to the Shaman one, save it's ONLY physical damage and there are no tanking (mitigation) talents in the lower Druid tree. Taking Shaman + Puri are the way to go. Put 8 in Shaman for the 3% dmg reduction, +10% heal and the shield, put 7 in Puri for the shield at +20% strength.

I in no way suggested that you shouldn't take Puri as I believe that + Shaman are the ONLY secondary souls to take after the obv Justicar. Druid is a complete waste as the Shaman shield is stronger (since it absorbs all dmg) and the Shaman soul gives damage mitigation, however small, vs the Druid soul giving zero mitigation. And the Fae pet healing is about 1/5th of what your passive Justicar self healing is.

EDIT: 5% HP in Druid base (spending 5pts) is not worth the loss of +10% healing, -3% damage taken and a better (overall) shield.

Edited, Apr 16th 2011 8:37pm by delindsay90210
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#10 Apr 16 2011 at 7:45 PM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
I thought about it and wanted to clear something up. I am NOT attacking your build, simply pointing out a few issues I see as a Healer. I have always played a healer of some kind, I have also tanked and pretty much everyone has a DPS. The issue with not taking Shaman and getting the -3% damage reduction and +10% healing done means I as a healer have to work about 13% harder to keep you alive, and I also OOM about 13% faster. As a Cleric healer (I have both 51pt Puri for MT Raid healing and Sent/Warden for Experts and Raid/group healing), we have mana issues at the current level in Rift (T1/T2 content). So anything I can do to help with mana efficiency, I try to do. If we have players in party with Wisdom or Int buff I ask for those, and I prefer tanks with the best possible damage mitigation their gear level allows so that I am as efficient a healer as possible. Shaman trumps Druid for mitigation, however small the amount. And Cleric tank should, IMHO, always have Puri as a secondary soul.

EDIT: Totally forgot to add something about damage/healing in Rift (so far). At current level (T1/T2 and maybe some Rift Raiding gear) tanks have about 8-9k hp. full 51pt Purifiers fully buffed have a 3 sec casted heal (with added shield) that crits for about 2-3k hp. We went into River of Souls today after the event with a full 20m raid of all 50's all in a mix of T1/T2 and a few with CC/AP reg gear +. The entire raid got 1-shot by a 3 pull, not a boss TRASH, the tank had 8400 hp and had toughness over what is needed for T2, just not Raid, he survived 1 hit with about 600hp left then died (through my talented shield. Having ANY additional mitigation however slight will probably be required for Raiding.

Edited, Apr 16th 2011 10:02pm by delindsay90210
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#11 Apr 16 2011 at 8:33 PM Rating: Decent
13 posts
delindsay90210 wrote:


The shield absorbs almost identical damage as the untalented Puri shield while at the same time causing more threat and doing a tiny amount of damage to all attackers while it's up. As for your 2000 heal in 30sec, my Puri spec heals more than that in 3sec, and I guarantee you will take more than 2000hp damage in 30 sec on a boss fight. The Druid shield is identical to the Shaman one, save it's ONLY physical damage and there are no tanking (mitigation) talents in the lower Druid tree. Taking Shaman + Puri are the way to go. Put 8 in Shaman for the 3% dmg reduction, +10% heal and the shield, put 7 in Puri for the shield at +20% strength.

I in no way suggested that you shouldn't take Puri as I believe that + Shaman are the ONLY secondary souls to take after the obv Justicar. Druid is a complete waste as the Shaman shield is stronger (since it absorbs all dmg) and the Shaman soul gives damage mitigation, however small, vs the Druid soul giving zero mitigation. And the Fae pet healing is about 1/5th of what your passive Justicar self healing is.

EDIT: 5% HP in Druid base (spending 5pts) is not worth the loss of +10% healing, -3% damage taken and a better (overall) shield.

Edited, Apr 16th 2011 8:37pm by delindsay90210


With my build you get more shields than that single shield in purifier, you get 4 shields and extra self heals. I dropped shaman because as far as mitigation goes puri outweighs shaman, but to do that you are left with few points to spare, with having less than 5 points to put into a 3rd spec, druid is a better choice than shaman. You probably could divide it up between shaman and puri, and I do intend to look into that, but for now (at lvl 35) the spec I gave gives me the most utility with the shields.

2ndly, the numbers I gave were just thrown out there, I don't have a lvl 50 yet and I don't know what kind of damage/healing you take at that lvl. The point remains the same though, lets say you take 10000 damage and 10000 healing in 30 seconds, the 10% healing now gives an extra 1000 health and the 3% damage reduction is still unworth the points spent, taking only 300 damage. having the extra mitigation from the puri soul with those 3 points is more worth it. If you HAVE to have those points spent in shaman to get something later, then I suppose that might be the best option, but its hard to say for endgame when I'm not there.

I understand you're not bashing my build and I'm not bashing yours either. I actually enjoy getting other people's input on my spec and trying to see things from someone elses point of view, it allows me to learn more about my spec.
#12 Apr 18 2011 at 5:35 PM Rating: Decent
2 posts
i'm totally jumping in here once i get some numbers hammered out. My wow script just ran out and i'm done for good, not that i hit 50 2 days ago and now i'm looking at endgame tanking specs quite intently. keep it up guys ... you'll have a 3rd person bouncing crazy ideas here soon.
#13 Apr 18 2011 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Quote:
you'll have a 3rd person bouncing crazy ideas here soon


Aye tis true, I am crazy, lol.
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#14 Apr 19 2011 at 1:42 AM Rating: Decent
4 posts
I suppose I'll add my 2 pence.

Build

The passive mitigation buff from Flame Ward, in addition to the buffed shield are far superior to anything that the Druid soul provides. As has been already mentioned, the Shield of Oak is a physical damage only mitigator, whilst the Sheild of Ancestors soaks it all. The passive damage reduction of the Thick Skinned talent, along with the 10% increase to healing, & Glacial Shield are mandatory, in my opinion, as they assist my healer. The sheilds also provide me with that greatest of tanking utility: the mitigation coooldown. Stacking the TS talent with the Sheild of Faith talent in t4 of the Justicar soul provides a straight 18% damage reduction regardless of type (Death, Fire, Physical, etc.).
Within the Justicar soul, I am not happy with the Doctrine of Valiance talent eating all of my Conviction, I took the point just in case i need to heal myself, but I have no intention of using it in my regular rotation. Humility & Supremacy, as short duration stun/roots, are, again IMO, not particularly useful. As a tank I will be focused on controlling the boss/adds during a fight &, while I took the talent, I have no intention of using it in a fight.
I also took Healing Blessing in the Purifier tree as it adds even more passive healing to my build, further reducing the stress on my healer.
I would love for Trion to lower the Shaman talent Combat Charge from high in the tree to t2 or 3. Having a charge as a tank is extrordinarily useful.

Edited, Apr 19th 2011 3:52am by Stumpbum21

Edited, Apr 19th 2011 4:04am by Stumpbum21
#15 Apr 19 2011 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
40 posts
^^^ I feel like this guy almost nailed it ^^^

rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=10nrG.Mcd.VuRsVeezoo.Vgkzc

I dropped 4 points in Shaman (vengeance, + melee crit) and doctrine of valiance for caregiver's gift and the associated talent, along with 1 point in Enflamed Rejuvination( helps Doctrine of Bliss, or Doctrine of Rightousness)

caregiver's blessing is so good. You might call this build a "shield" build, because you get the shaman shield, the beastly Justicar shield, the purifier basic shield (with talent), and talented Caregiver's blessing. Note that shields are unaffected by Mien of Leadership, making them superior to self-heals in a tanking situation (especially since you can effectively tack them onto your max health in certain situations). Just remember to use all of your abilities! I could see this build having challenges maintaining caregiver's blessing/ healing blessing by running out of mana or simply having to many activated prevention abilities (IE not focused on passive healing enough), but building 4 conviction and activating the blessing right before a spike, then spamming the just self-heal will probably keep you alive very well! Also, this build pretty much gets every mitigation point possible, while only giving up the 48 point ability for Justicar.
It might be though that you will run out of mana too often. In that case, drop Pur down to 14 points (getting Caregiver's blessing still), and try to get 14 points into Shaman for Ageless Ice. Also note that with this build you can off-tank and have significant shields/heals on the tank using caregiver's and Doctrine of Rightousness, then switch Miens when its time to tank!

Edited, Apr 19th 2011 10:46am by stewewewewism

Edited, Apr 19th 2011 10:47am by stewewewewism
#16 Apr 19 2011 at 12:49 PM Rating: Decent
1 post
Hi!
Thought that I could spend some minutes here to share my tank spec.

My spec

First of all, I would like to know why not all of you go for 44 points in justicar. Best cd we have tbh (increasing incoming healing by 50% for 10 sec).


So, what do I get from my off specs?
Shaman & Inquisitor

* Unyielding + Inner focus - Crit hit chance 10%
* Dauntless - Physical damage increase 5%
* Thick skinned - 3% damage reduction
* Favored of the valnir - Increasing incoming healing by 10%
* Glacial shied - absob xxx damage + gives extra initial threat to enemies from the damage it does.
* Armor of devotion - Adds 50 endurance

* Additional things I get for 16 points spent in shaman soul that I use while tanking:
- Vengeance of the winter storm - adds damage to your attacks.
- Fated blow - Reactive ability that is of my GCD (Global cooldown for you that dont know)
- Courage of the bear - Buff for whole group that adds 40 strength
- Ageless ice - Same as Purpose in justical soul (these abilitys dont share cd)

My choice of inquisitor is of course only for 50 endurance from armor of devotion (at level 50 that is ofc).



Edited, Apr 21st 2011 6:15am by Strandbergh
#17 Apr 19 2011 at 6:34 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,302 posts
/sigh.

1. Increasing the critical hit chance of spells does absolutely nothing to the abilities that require a melee weapon, which you are going to be using the majority of the time. Going up the Inquisitor tree to grab that armor is basically spending 5 points increasing only the critical hit chance of your nukes, which have a cooldown and aren't going to be the ones you're hitting the most often.

2. Ageless Ice is nice, but you don't NEED it if you work on raising your block rating.

3. Adding more crit isn't going to do a lot for Justicars, who don't focus on crit. With the aggro increase from Mien of Leadership, aggro issues for Justicar occur when you aren't actually hitting something, not because you didn't do enough damage.

4. There's nothing wrong with speccing for more shields. Damage shields as a whole usually don't last anywhere near their full duration in actual fights. If you're actually tanking something that is a threat, you will burn through a shield extremely quickly. It just might not be necessary to get a shield if your healer dabbles in the Purifier soul.

5. Flame Ward only increases your armor based on your base (i.e. before any buffs like Mien of Leadership) amount.

6. Healing Breath, even with the -40% effectiveness, heals significantly more than a Doctrine, and is a (not the) reason why some people dabble in Sentinel.
#18 Apr 19 2011 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
21 posts
Pimpinabox wrote:
Point is, you spent 7 points to receive and extra 10% healing and mitigate 3% damage. Let me run some numbers by you. Lets assume in a 30 second period you've received healing for 2000, you've just received an extra 200 healing, you've been hit for 2000, its been reduced to 1940 damage. For those seven points you're getting an extra 260 life gain, while I'm getting 830.


Strandbergh wrote:
Say that we get hit by 2000:
Flame ward would reduce that damage by 72 (2000x0,036=72).
Armor of devotion gives you 450 health (50endx9=450) - (yeah, warriors get 11hp/endurance!!)
So, 450hp > 72 damage reduction .. well I guess we should'nt forget about the 5% wisdom we get while taking flame ward. Dont think it would help me to reduce more then 378 damage of a 2000 hit though (450-72=378)



I wish people would stop posting bias numbers. In both the above examples you can put an extra 0 on the incomeing dmg and it would look like:

Pimpinabox wrote:
you're getting an extra 2600 life gain, while I'm getting 830.


and

Strandbergh wrote:
Say that we get hit by 2000 ten times:
Flame ward would reduce that damage by 720. Armor of devotion gives you 450 health (50endx9=450). So, 450hp > 720 damage reduction .. well I guess we should'nt forget about the 5% wisdom we get while taking flame ward.
#19 Apr 19 2011 at 8:38 PM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Quote:
1. Increasing the critical hit chance of spells does absolutely nothing to the abilities that require a melee weapon, which you are going to be using the majority of the time. Going up the Inquisitor tree to grab that armor is basically spending 5 points increasing only the critical hit chance of your nukes, which have a cooldown and aren't going to be the ones you're hitting the most often.


This

Quote:
3. Adding more crit isn't going to do a lot for Justicars, who don't focus on crit. With the aggro increase from Mien of Leadership, aggro issues for Justicar occur when you aren't actually hitting something, not because you didn't do enough damage.


Again this, and I'll add if you have issues with aggro as a Justicar, don't roll tank.

Quote:
4. There's nothing wrong with speccing for more shields. Damage shields as a whole usually don't last anywhere near their full duration in actual fights. If you're actually tanking something that is a threat, you will burn through a shield extremely quickly. It just might not be necessary to get a shield if your healer dabbles in the Purifier soul.


When it really counts ALL shield the Cleric can put on his/herself will be eaten in one hit. I do however disagree about the second bit with having less of a need if you roll with Puri healers. ANY mitigation CD's a tank can have helps the healers and therefore your group, the more the better (even if that shield only negates 1/10th of the incoming "I'm-going-to-kill-you-now" Boss move).

Quote:
6. Healing Breath, even with the -40% effectiveness, heals significantly more than a Doctrine, and is a (not the) reason why some people dabble in Sentinel.


Yes and no. Healing breath heals significantly more than ONE Doctrine of Bliss, but with an 8sec CD I can spam all FOUR convictions with Doctrine of Bliss and heal for much more. Or use Doctrine of Valiance once for roughly the same heal then build 1-2 more convictions for more Doctrine spamming and again get even higher healing in that 8sec.

I'm not in any way against "outside the box" thinking, I do it myself all the time, but there are certain static abilities/talents that are considered by anyone who does end game seriously to be mandatory. The Inq Soul has uniqueness in it but not practicality once fully thought out. IMHO Shaman and Purifier are the ONLY two Souls to pair with Justicar for tanking to realize the greatest benefit from overall mitigation (and yes that means we become cookie cutter like everyone else, sigh).

____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#20 Apr 19 2011 at 8:58 PM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Quote:
^^^ I feel like this guy almost nailed it ^^^

rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=10nrG.Mcd.VuRsVeezoo.Vgkzc


Some points to be made about that build:

Healing Blessing is absolutely horrible. ONE Doctrine of Bliss heals for more than all 3 of the Blessing heals and for the same GCD.

Caregiver's Blessing: You do realize that YOU personally have to spam 6 heals in order to achieve those 6 shield right. While your healing your not hitting the mob(s).

Flame Ward is a nice idea but is truly meant for PvP healing not Justicar tanking IMO.

No 44pt Justicar which is a GREAT tank CD, but I agree the 51pt is meh.

Searing Transfusion and Ward of the Ancestors in Purifier cannot be cast on yourself.

Enflamed Rejuvenation...WTF??? Is this guy gonna be heal tanking or something?


IMO the added points in Purifier are wasted, the Shaman Soul is correct and the Justicar Soul is fine, just get it to 44 pts at least.


Edited, Apr 21st 2011 11:46am by delindsay90210

Edited, Apr 21st 2011 11:46am by delindsay90210
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#21 Apr 19 2011 at 10:04 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,302 posts
delindsay90210 wrote:

Quote:
4. There's nothing wrong with speccing for more shields. Damage shields as a whole usually don't last anywhere near their full duration in actual fights. If you're actually tanking something that is a threat, you will burn through a shield extremely quickly. It just might not be necessary to get a shield if your healer dabbles in the Purifier soul.


When it really counts ALL shield the Cleric can put on his/herself will be eaten in one hit. I do however disagree about the second bit with having less of a need if you roll with Puri healers. ANY mitigation CD's a tank can have helps the healers and therefore your group, the more the better (even if that shield only negates 1/10th of the incoming "I'm-going-to-kill-you-now" Boss move).

From my understanding, most shields won't stack with each other. So you shielding yourself with something other than Just Defense and a Purifier shielding you at the same time (i.e. boss mob about to do something nasty, or about to hit an "oh crap, I'm getting a little low" moment) nets one wasted action. Again, it's only a "might not be necessary", not a "will not be necessary" there.

delindsay90210 wrote:

Quote:
6. Healing Breath, even with the -40% effectiveness, heals significantly more than a Doctrine, and is a (not the) reason why some people dabble in Sentinel.


Yes and no. Healing breath heals significantly more than ONE Doctrine of Bliss, but with an 8sec CD I can spam all FOUR convictions with Doctrine of Bliss and heal for much more. Or use Doctrine of Valiance once for roughly the same heal then build 1-2 more convictions for more Doctrine spamming and again get even higher healing in that 8sec.

Wrong context. Mathematically, yes Bliss nets more in the 8 seconds. Realistically? You use Healing Breath to help stretch out your Convictions as long as possible. Since it can do more than one Bliss, it's an acceptable substitute to rotate in when you're trying to buy time for other things.

Quote:

I'm not in any way against "outside the box" thinking, I do it myself all the time, but there are certain static abilities/talents that are considered by anyone who does end game seriously to be mandatory. The Inq Soul has uniqueness in it but not practicality once fully thought out. IMHO Shaman and Purifier are the ONLY two Souls to pair with Justicar for tanking to realize the greatest benefit from overall mitigation (and yes that means we become cookie cutter like everyone else, sigh).

Unfortunately, you have to consider other things, like avoidance. Mitigation literally falls in your lap when you upgrade gear. You may find that your combination of souls works best for you, but I can guarantee that not everyone feels the same just by sifting through the Justicar threads on the official boards.
#22 Apr 19 2011 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,302 posts
delindsay90210 wrote:

[...]
Caregiver's Blessing: You do realize that YOU personally have to spam 6 heals in order to achieve those 6 shield right. While your healing your not hitting the mob(s).

The problem I remember running into with Caregiver's Blessing is that the charges run out way too fast because Salvation triggers them. However, I haven't tried it in a bit, and don't feel like sinking 50 gold just for that.

delindsay90210 wrote:

Flame Ward is a nice idea but is truly meant for PvP healing not Justicar tanking IMO.

I know Flame Ward procs off of Salvation heals, which occur pretty much every swing.

#23 Apr 19 2011 at 10:51 PM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Quote:
I know Flame Ward procs off of Salvation heals, which occur pretty much every swing.


That I didn't know, then I change my opinion to it's worth a shot trying it for Justicar tanking to see if it's viable (for the 44pt Justicar tank build, not the 51pt). As for shields, no they do not stack (however your personal shield stacks with a Puri shield placed on you by the healer, again one at a time from both toons).

To point out jsut how important Purifier is to tank mitigation, Garad Nallam < Focus Merchant > in the college of Planar Studies in Meridian sells a raid Essence that increases the absorbed amount of Purifier shields by 727. http://rift.zam.com/en/item/ABF4F0CB0601010101/Ancestral-Soulstone with 5/5 Protection of the Ancestors, that means every 30sec you have a 1973.5 hp shield that absorbs ALL incoming damage.

Oh and someone mentioned Glory of the Chosen in Shaman for non-GCD self heals. If you are being critically hit in experts or Raid, you should not be tanking, period. A tank is required to have enough toughness to be uncritable and therefore that ability would never proc.
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#24 Apr 20 2011 at 1:33 AM Rating: Decent
4 posts
@ delindsay, the Searing Transfusion talent can be self-cast. I tested it today, in fact & it worked exactly as advertised.
I also tested Caregiver's Blessing & Flame ward. Both proc off Salvation.

edit. I was looking at the wrong tooltip :] Caregiver does NOT proc off Salvation. Making it more or less useless to a tank. Flame Ward does, though.

Edited, Apr 20th 2011 3:38am by Stumpbum21
#25 Apr 20 2011 at 2:13 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,302 posts
Stumpbum21 wrote:
@ delindsay, the Searing Transfusion talent can be self-cast. I tested it today, in fact & it worked exactly as advertised.
I also tested Caregiver's Blessing & Flame ward. Both proc off Salvation.

edit. I was looking at the wrong tooltip :] Caregiver does NOT proc off Salvation. Making it more or less useless to a tank. Flame Ward does, though.

Edited, Apr 20th 2011 3:38am by Stumpbum21


Thanks for the confirmation, Stumpbum. If that's the case, I'm not sure what I tried with Caregiver's when I fooled around with it back at headstart, only that it burned out way too fast to be useful.

Regarding Ancestral Soulstone, the fact that it exists only means that the devs consider the spell type it boosts one of the Purifier's defining traits. You may choose to reserve one of your essence slots for it, but honestly? Most people aren't going to have that to play with.
#26 Apr 20 2011 at 3:37 AM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Quote:
Regarding Ancestral Soulstone, the fact that it exists only means that the devs consider the spell type it boosts one of the Purifier's defining traits. You may choose to reserve one of your essence slots for it, but honestly? Most people aren't going to have that to play with.


For sure there are a lot of people who just don't have access to raids. But you do get 3/10 required tokens from the daily so as long as the shard people are on has decent pugs then maybe. I know I will have it for both my 51 Puri and my Tank core, once I get enough tokens.
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#27 Apr 20 2011 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
40 posts
Ravashack wrote:

Thanks for the confirmation, Stumpbum. If that's the case, I'm not sure what I tried with Caregiver's when I fooled around with it back at headstart, only that it burned out way too fast to be useful.

R


It used to proc off of salvation. It no longer does, so you have to use conviction to proc it. And yes, I intend to be a healing tank. Healing = mitigation and AOE aggro
#28 Apr 21 2011 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Just respec'd to try out Flame ward and see if it is in fact worth the 2/2 points. Before attacking I had 7234 Armor (52.67%), after I started attacking the test dummy it was up 100% of the time and I increased to 7401 Armor (53.24%). That was an increase of 0.57% Armor, not terrible but not great either. Keep in mind my armor value is due to being in nearly 100% level 48 blues, I have a few level 50 Blues and all 3 World Event purples. Other than a shield, Trinket and both Greater Essences I have zero actual Cleric tank gear (you know the stuff with Wis/End/Block/Parry/etc) all my gear is regular Int/Wis/End/SP/etc Chain. I point that out for a reason, the actual Chain tank gear has slightly higher values for Armor per item level and thus I would normally have well over 8K Armor if was in Full T1. The problem is though, I would see LESS of an advantage to Flame Ward the more Armor I got due to diminishing returns, so 0.57% is most likely the upper limit to what people will see just starting into T1. Once those tanks get to T2 and Raid, I doubt that 2/2 talent would add more than ~0.20% Armor, which frankly isn't worth the 2 points.

To give an idea of values for tank Armor, the best geared Warrior tank in my Guild atm (farming T1's and roughing it through T2's/Raid Rifts) only has about 3% more Armor than I do, and he's 100% full T1 gear. Oddly enough, even with my gear level as a Cleric I have more tanking CD's, nearly as much Armor, and more over all avoidance than this full T1 gear. I would have thought Warriors to BE the MT in Rift with Clerics/Rogues being OT's, but it's looking like Clerics may out match Warriors (equally geared). That said Trion could easily nerf Mien of Leadership to bring down the HP and/or Armor increase to bring us in line with Warriors.

EDIT: ATM the my Shard is down but once it's up I'm going to tweak it again and try something. I'm going to take those 2 points out of Flame Ward and drop them into Justicar. The reason is what Mien of Leadership does. It increases Armor not only by 100% but 1% per point spent in the Justicar soul. If those 1% increases aren't calculated at base then those 2 points would likely be more of an increase than the 6% base Armor for Flame Ward. I will let you all know what the change is.

Edited, Apr 21st 2011 11:42am by delindsay90210
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#29 Apr 22 2011 at 1:58 AM Rating: Decent
13 posts
dhae wrote:

I wish people would stop posting bias numbers. In both the above examples you can put an extra 0 on the incomeing dmg and it would look like:

Pimpinabox wrote:
you're getting an extra 2600 life gain, while I'm getting 830.


and

Strandbergh wrote:
Say that we get hit by 2000 ten times:
Flame ward would reduce that damage by 720. Armor of devotion gives you 450 health (50endx9=450). So, 450hp > 720 damage reduction .. well I guess we should'nt forget about the 5% wisdom we get while taking flame ward.


No need to be an **** about it, if you had actually bothered reading my posts, I stated that I don't know endgame numbers and was using more or less what i was receiving at my lvl.

I dropped druid altogether for shaman, lowered my points in puri and justicar to create this build. Still not endgame but I'm in the mid 40's now and this is working for me. I thought about dropping Doc of Valiance since I never use it, but I didn't see anything else I wanted to put a point in.
#30 Apr 22 2011 at 2:04 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,302 posts
Pimpinabox wrote:


No need to be an **** about it, if you had actually bothered reading my posts, I stated that I don't know endgame numbers and was using more or less what i was receiving at my lvl.

I dropped druid altogether for shaman, lowered my points in puri and justicar to create this build. Still not endgame but I'm in the mid 40's now and this is working for me. I thought about dropping Doc of Valiance since I never use it, but I didn't see anything else I wanted to put a point in.


Put it in Healer's Creed preferably, or Humility.
#31 Apr 22 2011 at 2:05 AM Rating: Decent
13 posts
delindsay90210 wrote:

EDIT: ATM the my Shard is down but once it's up I'm going to tweak it again and try something. I'm going to take those 2 points out of Flame Ward and drop them into Justicar. The reason is what Mien of Leadership does. It increases Armor not only by 100% but 1% per point spent in the Justicar soul. If those 1% increases aren't calculated at base then those 2 points would likely be more of an increase than the 6% base Armor for Flame Ward. I will let you all know what the change is.

Edited, Apr 21st 2011 11:42am by delindsay90210


I'm interested in your results, I would think that the 6% would be better though.
#32 Apr 23 2011 at 3:22 AM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Alright I was able to respec finally and here are the results based on my mostly level 48 Blues, few level 50 Blues and all 3 World Event Purples (no actual Cleric tanking gear except the Shield and Core):

-Justicar/Shaman/Purifier (46/8/12) with Flame Ward.

Prior to attacking: 7234 Armor (52.67%)
During attacking Dummy: 7401 Armor (53.24%)

Benefit gained = +167 Armor (+0.57%)

-Justicar/Shaman/Purifier (48/8/10) +2 pts into Justicar for 2% Armor bonus with Mien of Leadership active.

Value of Armor without +2 pts into Justicar: 7234 Armor (52.67%)
Value of Armor with +2 pts into Justicar: 7290 Armor (52.86%)

Benifit gained = +56 Armor (+0.19%)


With these results it can be stated that with Flame Ward up the increase in Armor is higher than dropping those 2 points to place into Justicar. I didn't try a full 51 pt Justicar to see that difference as I would then lose 30% bonus to my Purifier shield which I personally wouldn't want to lose for potentially zero increase over Flame Ward. Other benefits to this route is a Cleanse spell (I macro'd it to cast on myself so the Healer doesn't have to worry about it) and a larger personal shield. I still have the standard 8 pts in Shaman and 100% of the tanking abilities including the CC abilities in Justicar.

EDIT: This kinda thing is why I enjoy discourse over min/maxing because originally I thought Flame Ward to be junk (although I never thought 51pt Justicar was worth it) and after testing it out we can all see it IS better.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2011 5:27am by delindsay90210
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#33 Apr 25 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
2 posts
Yeah, both armor bonuses are based on base armor.

From your numbers, you are sitting around 2939 armor.

6% of 2939 base armor is roughly 176 armor. Probably a rounding error to see why you only received 167 armor.

2% of 2939 base armor is roughly 58 armor. Again, most likely a rounding error in the game itself.

Armor of Treachery is superior to both, but at a higher cost of talents. At your gear level, it is better overall although 6 points + speccing into a soul with no other benefits < 2 points into a soul that already has solid talents invested (imo).

Another thing to consider is the usefulness of the +5% wisdom talent points to get to the 2nd tier of the tree. At my level of wisdom, the 5 talent points would provide about 34 parry + 5 block (roughly 350 Wisdom).

So here is the question: Would the +5% spell > +5% wisdom +6% base armor? Going to crunch the numbers tonight to see if it is right for my toon.
#34 Apr 26 2011 at 10:29 PM Rating: Decent
11 posts
HI.

I just been reading up and barely tried to tank yet with Cleric, And im running with
This as my build. though i wounder is Justicar using Life spell dmg or do they have a touch to Physical dmg aswell and if they do wouldent DC and HV be usefull talents although it would be maybe harder to mix the talents around.

Also wounderd about Enflamed Rejuvination dose this actualy proc on the Justicars attacking abilitys? when they heal or would it only mean it procs on the Doctrines?

Is there anyone thats finding themself with a mana issue at 50? or can some points in Shaman be dropet in favour to add to Purifier tree and dropping Ageless ice?
#35 Apr 27 2011 at 12:06 AM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Quote:
Is there anyone thats finding themself with a mana issue at 50? or can some points in Shaman be dropet in favour to add to Purifier tree and dropping Ageless ice?


If you are OOM'ing as a Cleric tank then you aren't doing it right. I literally NEVER run out of mana unless the mob(s) are mana draining me. I would hope you know as a Cleric that we DO NOT stack Dex/Str/etc that a Rogue or Warrior would have on their tanking gear, Spell Power is our Parry and forget Dodge, we just don't get much of it. Your stats are basically the same as any Cleric, except Crit is nearly useless to a tank. You should not be wearing Leather tank gear, pretty much ever and even the "tank" rings, essences and necks are up for debate as we gain our primary tank stat (Parry) from Wisdom (which is Spell Power to us).

Also you mention something about added physical damage output...why. First off something like 95% of Justicar tank abilities are spell damage, not physical and second adding 5-10% damage to already the lowest DPS output in the group/raid is completely wasted points. Spend those points in talents that help you tank better. And if it's a matter of better threat gen, then again you aren't doing it right, with a few exceptions nobody short of taunting has pulled threat off of me.

Lastly you talk about Enflamed Rejuvenation wondering if it would help you. People need to stop thinking that "heal tanking" is viable (no offense to you personally). I guarantee you that in ANY situation where a tank is required to control any mob (because it would destroy any other player in 1-2 shots) the self healing a tank "could" do is insignificant past their own tank CD's which in most cases is a shield or 3, increased healing done/decreased damage done for xx sec, and a 5/10m cd half-full hp ability. Even an off-healer usually cannot help keep the tank alive once the true healer dies for more than a few seconds.

You cannot be the best Tank possible while trying to be a good DPS and/or self healing thingamabob. It's no different from any other Role. If a DPS spec'd into a bunch of tanking abilities so they "could" OT when needed then they would not be topping the DPS meters (unless OT was their job, then it's appropriate). If a Healer spec'd into a bunch of DPS talents (discounting Bard/Chloro since that IS what they do) then they probably wouldn't be capable of dealing with the tremendous damage output of "I'm going to kill you now" boss move.

With all that said, since it is a game and people will play it how they choose, do that. If you want to be a 'healtank' then be one, nobodies going to stop you, but you will not likely be tanking end game content as there will be better tanks out there that realize the futility of trying to do the same.

EDIT: I keep seeing this so I feel it's necessary to reiterate a point, Glory of the Chosen in the Shaman tree for those of you taking it so you can "healtank" WILL NEVER PROC, EVER! If that ability ever procs then you shouldn't be tanking since you do not have the required Toughness to handle that content.

Edited, Apr 27th 2011 2:12am by delindsay90210
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#36 Apr 27 2011 at 1:39 AM Rating: Decent
11 posts
Well i wasent saying i had issues i was generaly asking as i said i havent tried tanking yet. and for the Physical ability talents i was just curious as i havent realy found a proper place to read that we only use Spell. others keep saying the justicar are Physical abilitys wich was why i asekt around that area.

And well no i had no plans of playing as a healer tank that would be mostly just for soloing/quests and so on.

And for the Glory OF the Chosen i dident talent down for it for that i did it for the mana on hit because i was unsure if the mana regen was a issue wich was sorta why i did ask here before i made any final fine tunes to the build. what i linket was a build i been jumping back and forth with trying to adjust properly.

Havent tanket before as Cleric but want to give it a try and so far all my gear is mail some toughness bits but mostly just Spell power some Focus for hit and some crit but not to much.

If you have any better suggestions where to place my talents im open for a diffrent look on specs. Im not relying on beeing a healtank then id be dropping the talents in Shaman all together and rather go for healing talents.

What im trying to go for is a decent tank spec that works. Generaly i have questions about some talents if they actualy proc and has some benefits. alot of them has been answerd here and things has become alot more clear :)

Dose the Cleric have any strong side spec against caster mobs? i mean Warriors have Void knight. Im just seeing when im running into caster mobs they hit more than a Physical dealing mob would, any tips to deal with this other than just Interdict?
#37 Apr 27 2011 at 2:08 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
40 posts
I thought that the way toughness worked was that it just reduced the damage taken from critical hits, not reduced the rate at which you are critically hit. That's what the tooltip leads me to believe but I am honestly not sure, I don't tank very much.
____________________________
Jimothy
Bismark
BLM 61, WHM 50
#38 Apr 27 2011 at 3:02 AM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Quote:
Dose the Cleric have any strong side spec against caster mobs?


Nope Casters seat us alive, well not really but yes they will always do more damage than physical damage mobs. And keep in mind I wasn't referring to YOU specifically about most of what I said, it was a generalization for Cleric tank in general, as for what spec to try, just read all of this post there is a bunch of theory crafting in it about what talents are good and which are not.

Toughness tool tip may read funny, but it works the same as defense rating in WoW, if you do not have sufficient Toughness the mob of that content will crit you to death. You CAN however slide by with a little less than the minimum (that's how it differs from WoW) you will still take higher spike damage and will still be harder to heal, than the same tank with the same gear except they have say 50 tough and you have 44 for a T1 as example, but it's possible.
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#39 Apr 27 2011 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
2 posts
WoW removed their "defense rating" stat a few months back... and they do work differently.

Rift's "toughness" stat does reduce crit damage but does not remove the chance to be crit. The toughness caps (50 for T1, 100 for T2, etc) reduce the damage done by crits to a normal hit. Yes, at the caps, it works the same as "defense rating" did in WoW - what should be a crit would hit like a normal hit.

The differences between the two are seen when a tank is under the cap. If a tank has 0 toughness in a T1, a crit on him/her would deal the normal hit + 100% of the normal hit (basically double). In a T2 expert run, the same tank would take a crit of the normal hit + 200% of the normal it (triple damage on a crit). This mechanic puts a need for a tank to continue to increase their toughness stat along with other stats, just like focus/hit for dps. It also prevents tanks from being carried in content that is above their head.

Using the following example from the post above this:

50 toughness = 100% crit dmg reduction.

A T1 crit on a 50 toughness tank would be: Normal hit + 100% of the normal hit -100% of the normal hit = just the normal hit. A normal hit of 1k would result in a crit of 1k.

44 toughness = 88% crit dmg reduction.

A T1 crit on a 44 toughnes tank would be: Normal hit + 100% of the normal hit -88% of the normal hit = normal hit + 12% of the normal hit. A normal hit of 1k would result in a crit of 1120 dmg.

Yes, it is very important to stack toughness to reach the point where crit dmg = normal hit dmg. Being slightly under the toughness cap would result in some small spikes. The more the tank is under the cap, the larger the spikes.



Edited, Apr 27th 2011 2:34pm by Daitila
#40 Apr 28 2011 at 7:22 AM Rating: Decent
40 posts
delindsay90210 wrote:
[quote] Lastly you talk about Enflamed Rejuvenation wondering if it would help you. People need to stop thinking that "heal tanking" is viable (no offense to you personally). I guarantee you that in ANY situation where a tank is required to control any mob (because it would destroy any other player in 1-2 shots) the self healing a tank "could" do is insignificant past their own tank CD's which in most cases is a shield or 3, increased healing done/decreased damage done for xx sec, and a 5/10m cd half-full hp ability. Even an off-healer usually cannot help keep the tank alive once the true healer dies for more than a few seconds.

You cannot be the best Tank possible while trying to be a good DPS and/or self healing thingamabob. It's no different from any other Role. If a DPS spec'd into a bunch of tanking abilities so they "could" OT when needed then they would not be topping the DPS meters (unless OT was their job, then it's appropriate). If a Healer spec'd into a bunch of DPS talents (discounting Bard/Chloro since that IS what they do) then they probably wouldn't be capable of dealing with the tremendous damage output of "I'm going to kill you now" boss move.

Edited, Apr 27th 2011 2:12am by delindsay90210


I've no choice but to point out a fallacy in this idea.

Heal tanking is viable because healing IS mitigation. It is different than DPS speccing into tank or heals speccing into dps. If DPS specs into tanking, they will spend less time using pure DPS and more time using tank abilities. The same goes for healers, they cannot keep up with healing while using DPS abilities. Heal tanking is different. It merely gives you a more active role in mitigating damage consistently. The point isn't to do most of the healing, but rather to contribute to it via doctrine of bliss, caregiver's blessing, the shaman shield and the pur shield when you have a few global cooldowns to spare.

TL;DR: If you are missing out on tanking talents to get healing talent you are doing it wrong. If you can spare a couple of points to get significant healing that will not interfere with your tanking talents or abilities, then it would be helpful.


Edited, Apr 28th 2011 9:23am by stewewewewism
#41 Apr 28 2011 at 12:22 PM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Quote:
I've no choice but to point out a fallacy in this idea.

Heal tanking is viable because healing IS mitigation.


Then I must point out that it is obvious you have never tanked end game content before. Once the DPS is pulling so much threat that it is all you can do as a tank to hold 5-10% more threat on the boss with your damaging abilities (that have increased threat gen, your "heals" have no extra threat gen) then doing anything other than the self healing all tanks get passively and the 5/10m CD save-my-life button will likely wipe the raid or at least get 1 or more DPS killed. And I don't care how good your gear is as a Cleric tank (how much SP you have) your Doctrine of Bliss will never match what a healer can do in the same GCD. So you are wasting a GCD for a worthless heal (worthless in end game numbers) that doesn't build any more threat than if you weren't tanking, and you lose out on the threat gen a damaging ability would have created. When you are going from 11K hp to zero in a matter of 2-3 seconds because the boss hits that hard, your 5-600hp Bliss heal is moot because your dead.

Taunts go immune at some point so tanks cannot rely on that to regain threat all the time, it comes down to the built in increased threat mechanic via certain damaging abilities. And again self healing (spammable buttons with GCD, not the passive healing) creates no additional (no more than any other person in raid using the same heal) threat so even the Healer is pulling as much threat as you (more actually if they have HoTs rolling on you). Your job as a tank is to be #1 threat on the boss and be the best meat shield you can with the gear you have at the time. And to gain access to these healing talents in the Purifier tree means you ARE losing out on some tank CD's like not going 44 deep into Justicar or dropping Shaman like someone mentioned (the 51pt is meh and the extra 6 pts is worse than Flame Ward because then you only get 20% bigger shield instead of 50% with only 44pts).
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#42 Apr 28 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,302 posts
delindsay90210 wrote:


Then I must point out that it is obvious you have never tanked end game content before. Once the DPS is pulling so much threat that it is all you can do as a tank to hold 5-10% more threat on the boss with your damaging abilities (that have increased threat gen, your "heals" have no extra threat gen) then doing anything other than the self healing all tanks get passively and the 5/10m CD save-my-life button will likely wipe the raid or at least get 1 or more DPS killed. And I don't care how good your gear is as a Cleric tank (how much SP you have) your Doctrine of Bliss will never match what a healer can do in the same GCD. So you are wasting a GCD for a worthless heal (worthless in end game numbers) that doesn't build any more threat than if you weren't tanking, and you lose out on the threat gen a damaging ability would have created. When you are going from 11K hp to zero in a matter of 2-3 seconds because the boss hits that hard, your 5-600hp Bliss heal is moot because your dead.

Taunts go immune at some point so tanks cannot rely on that to regain threat all the time, it comes down to the built in increased threat mechanic via certain damaging abilities. And again self healing (spammable buttons with GCD, not the passive healing) creates no additional (no more than any other person in raid using the same heal) threat so even the Healer is pulling as much threat as you (more actually if they have HoTs rolling on you). Your job as a tank is to be #1 threat on the boss and be the best meat shield you can with the gear you have at the time. And to gain access to these healing talents in the Purifier tree means you ARE losing out on some tank CD's like not going 44 deep into Justicar or dropping Shaman like someone mentioned (the 51pt is meh and the extra 6 pts is worse than Flame Ward because then you only get 20% bigger shield instead of 50% with only 44pts).


Long explanation aside, I don't see where Mien of Leadership says it only applies to damaging abilities. It just says 300% threat generation. And that type of situation is when you'd use Doctrine of Authority, which both damages and heals.

Edited, Apr 28th 2011 3:05pm by Ravashack
#43 Apr 28 2011 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Alright then I must obviously be horrible at explaining why a tank should be a tank and not a healer so good luck to those that wish to try.
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#44 Apr 28 2011 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
1,302 posts
delindsay90210 wrote:
Alright then I must obviously be horrible at explaining why a tank should be a tank and not a healer so good luck to those that wish to try.


I'm not saying your objection is wrong, just that you're using incorrect information (and thus reasoning) to support it. Otherwise there'd be no reason to put the main Justicar heals on this Conviction system in the first place.

#45 Apr 28 2011 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
13 posts
vevexan wrote:
HI.

I just been reading up and barely tried to tank yet with Cleric, And im running with
This as my build. though i wounder is Justicar using Life spell dmg or do they have a touch to Physical dmg aswell and if they do wouldent DC and HV be usefull talents although it would be maybe harder to mix the talents around.

Also wounderd about Enflamed Rejuvination dose this actualy proc on the Justicars attacking abilitys? when they heal or would it only mean it procs on the Doctrines?

Is there anyone thats finding themself with a mana issue at 50? or can some points in Shaman be dropet in favour to add to Purifier tree and dropping Ageless ice?


Drop overwhelming altogether and 1 point from unyielding and put em in the justicar tree for the 44 point talent and extra 1% armor per point. Drop healing blessing and put it in protection of the ancestors. If you do the math the shield gives more mitigation in the same cd period than the blessing does. Don't forget to count the 40% reduction in healing from the blessing due to mein of leadership.

Mana isn't an issue as you have time between pulls to get your mana back up via drinks if need be.

Edited, Apr 28th 2011 8:41pm by Pimpinabox
#46 Apr 29 2011 at 8:11 AM Rating: Decent
40 posts
I have a question about healing tanks. Do main healers run out of mana in max level instances?
#47 Apr 29 2011 at 8:39 AM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Quote:
I have a question about healing tanks. Do main healers run out of mana in max level instances?


Clerics do yes, Chloromancer not so much. No matter how well geared a healer is if things go horribly wrong where they are having to spam heal everyone in sight (not just the tank) they will eventually OOM. Mage's are a different story as the better they DPS (better gear) the better they heal and thus don't really have mana issues. Currently on my Shard the best healer is a Chloro and he has solo healed every T2 and Expert Rift they're Guild has done, he never drops more than 10-20% mana (from full).
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#48 Apr 29 2011 at 8:42 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
21 posts
delindsay90210 wrote:
Currently on my Shard the best healer is a Chloro and he has solo healed every T2 and Expert Rift they're Guild has done, he never drops more than 10-20% mana (from full).

You know his build? I like to see it
#49 Apr 29 2011 at 7:59 PM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Euthanasia > Todrin > Defiant, can't remember the Guild but he's on the leaderboard.
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#50 May 05 2011 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
3 posts
delindsay90210 wrote:
EDIT: I keep seeing this so I feel it's necessary to reiterate a point, Glory of the Chosen in the Shaman tree for those of you taking it so you can "healtank" WILL NEVER PROC, EVER! If that ability ever procs then you shouldn't be tanking since you do not have the required Toughness to handle that content.


Now, I've only played this game for about a week now, but I believe this is incorrect. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Toughness reduces the damage you take from crits, not the chance you will be crit. So in theory you can still use "on being crit" abilities with "max" toughness for your content. I won't comment on the usefulness of Glory of the Chosen in a tank build, but I thought that I'd try to clarify this point, since I believe it is incorrect.


Edited, May 5th 2011 4:11pm by vBean
#51 May 05 2011 at 9:59 PM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Quote:
Now, I've only played this game for about a week now, but I believe this is incorrect. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Toughness reduces the damage you take from crits, not the chance you will be crit. So in theory you can still use "on being crit" abilities with "max" toughness for your content. I won't comment on the usefulness of Glory of the Chosen in a tank build, but I thought that I'd try to clarify this point, since I believe it is incorrect.


All I know is that being over the Toughness cap (soft cap) for T1's I don't ever see BIG numbers from a usual crit from a mob. What I mean is all the normal damage being done shows as 'xxxx' while crits show as 'XXXX' and I don't see any of those, where I did see crits when I was under tough cap. Now, it's possible that the crit is still happening (game mechanic) but only shows as regular damage, not increased crit damage, if you are over the cap and then possibly Glory of the Chosen would still proc. I will see if I can find a Trion post that verifies one way or the other.

EDIT: I can however verify that you really shouldn't be tanking until you have the toughness cap (soft cap) unless you run with a very competent Healer. At 26 Toughness (half way to cap) I was getting crit for over 5K (with 57% armor, & 18% dmg reduction). That's a huge amount of HP for a healer to replace before you get crit again for the roughly same amount. The same mobs after tough cap I only get hit in the 2's (roughly same armor %).

Also, I just acquired Spirit Wolf Totem and can say it's amazing as a Justicar Tank. It's up time on me was well over 50% and I saw it on 4/5 party member simultaneously. I don't know if it's better or worse than Sacred Heirloom of Eth since I have only ever seen that one heal basically Melee but both are still very nice for Cleric Tanks.

Edited, May 6th 2011 11:38pm by delindsay90210
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 13 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (13)