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Jezebel's Complete Guide to Hipster RacismFollow

#52 May 02 2012 at 5:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
I remember Christina Aguilera getting flack for making a Spanish album, because people either didn't know or had forgotten that she's actually half Hispanic. She just really doesn't look it.

I left my notebook about Christina Aguilera in my other pants but I seem to recall a lot of the annoyance came from her previous bending over backwards to avoid saying she was half Hispanic. Probably because that wasn't the image they wanted put out to compete with Ms. Spears.
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#53 May 02 2012 at 5:42 AM Rating: Good
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"Black women have such pretty hair!"


I didn't know this was a stereotype.
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#54 May 02 2012 at 5:53 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
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"Black women have such pretty hair!"


I didn't know this was a stereotype.


It isn't.
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#55 May 02 2012 at 6:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Samira wrote:
It is pretty tacky to co-opt someone else's culture because you're not creative enough to, you know, write your own Shit.

As I said, for every "ironic" white-boy rap song cover, there's probably a dozen hip-hop tracks sampling songs by white artists rather than being creative enough to write their own shit.



Isn't that analogous to joking down, though?

Either way, sampling or covers, it makes more sense that a minority would borrow from the parent culture rather than the reverse - to me, at least.


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#56 May 02 2012 at 6:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, it's analogous to "We can do whatever we want with your stuff but our stuff is just too precious and sacred to touch so how dare you, you racist... Now hang on, there's a Cheap Trick song from 1981 I need to steal the bass line from for my sacred hip-hop song."
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#57 May 02 2012 at 6:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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#58 May 02 2012 at 8:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Well, it's analogous to "We can do whatever we want with your stuff but our stuff is just too precious and sacred to touch so how dare you, you racist... Now hang on, there's a Cheap Trick song from 1981 I need to steal the bass line from for my sacred hip-hop song."
You are either choosing to ignore or just willfully refusing to acknowledge that the cultures are not equal in racial standing or bias. It's not that the song itself is sacred, much like a statue of the Virgin is not in itself sacred, it's what it represents. No amount of bitching on your part will ever make the comparison valid.

And for the record, Christina Aguilera's Ecuadorian father beat her mother to a pulp, so she threw off anything that had to do with him for quite some time. She then recorded the album as a way to own parts of her heritage that she hadn't felt connected to.
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#59 May 02 2012 at 8:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Quote:
"Black women have such pretty hair!"


I didn't know this was a stereotype.


It isn't.
I remember watching Chris Rock's documentary on hair in African American culture and thinking, "Holy sh*t I had no idea", as far as time, expense, and cultural and social standing. It's really quite a sensitive thing, and I would have probably stuck to "Aren't you pretty"? Then again, I'm familiar by virtue of existence how many racially and culturally insensitive comments people can make under the guise of paying a compliment.
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#60 May 02 2012 at 8:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Atomicflea wrote:
You are either choosing to ignore or just willfully refusing to acknowledge that the cultures are not equal in racial standing or bias

I'm willfully refusing to acknowledge that this is a good enough reason to repeatedly take from Culture A while declaring that Culture B is off limits and thinking "All of your stuff is mine and all of my stuff is mine but you better not touch any of my stuff, you racist" is a good way to help bridge racial divides. What is this, musical reparations?

Of course, if we've reached the point where I should care about Whitey McJezebelBlogger's opinion on the holy sanctity of "Cop Killer" and whether it's properly reflected in some garage band's cover, I suppose that's making progress on the important issues. I don't know if any actual black musical artists give a rat's ass the same way she does.
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#61 May 02 2012 at 10:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:

. It goes along with the idea that "just because you put me on a pedestal doesn't make you not sexist" thing. I'm not exactly sure how to explain it, but basically the idea is that you can compliment something and still be discriminatory against someone. Kind of like the whole "Asians are good at math!" or "Black women have such pretty hair!" or "Women are so nurturing!" While the person's intent may be good, lumping groups together like that is still racist/sexist. The easiest way to turn that around is to make it about the particular person, not about how they represent their "group" as a whole. But it also can depend on how enthusiastic you get as well.


  • "Asians good at math": often goes hand in hand with "Asians are mindless automatons that lack any creativity."
  • "Women are so nurturing": often used to excuse some nasty, sexist things and reinforce the false dichotomy of men being logical and women being emotional (and hence, illogical and easily dismissable).
  • I"Black women have such pretty hair": HOOOOOO BOY black hair is such a tangly subject. "Good Hair" is often "White Hair." Also, it's kind of objectifying.


These are just the specific examples, but what makes positive stereotypes so insidious is that it sets your bar for success unrealistically high. Others are irrationally disappointed if you don't measure up to this arbitrary standard, and it can seriously be an alienating experience.

If you're an Asian that's bad at math? You're deficient and should be ashamed of yourself!

If you're a woman that's not nurturing? You cold bitch! What's wrong with you? If a man doesn't meet this standard of nurturing, it's not viewed as this fatal flaw. These sexist assumptions are bad for men, too, because it implies that men are not nurturing. You can see this in the disparity between stay-at-home moms and stay-at-home dads as well as the differences between custody agreements after divorce. These are actually very related, as the judge (understandably) usually wants to leave kids with the primary caretaker. There's definitely a stigma against fathers being the primary caretaker, and it makes me very happy that this is going away.
It always kind of sticks in my craw when Mens' Rights activists complain about that last one, because it's that very sexist assumption that enables this disparity and that feminists fighting to dismantle these rigid gender roles helps them, too. Patriarchy (no, not a cabal of men intent on ruling teh worlds, but a specific piece of jargon referring to this sort of gender policing that both sexes participate in) hurts men, too


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It may not be as insidious as other sorts of racism, but that doesn't make it less wrong. In some ways, it's worse because people don't realize they're being racist, and because it's socially acceptable.


I find hipster racism unpalatable because a lot of racism is internalized, and saying "it's just a joke" is a way of excusing being too lazy or thoughtless to examine these prickly, insidious sorts of things. It also enables genuine racists hide behind these sorts of excuses and retards the progress towards this "color-blindness" that a lot of people like to bleat about.

Plus, it makes you look like a dick and it's easy to avoid.
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#62 May 02 2012 at 10:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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One of my college roommates was the laziest, stupidest Korean you could hope to meet. He claims he was from S. Korea but I'm pretty sure he was sent by the N. Koreans as an exile case because they wanted to pollute our gene pool or something.

Back on music or a sec, I think part of why I'm not buying this is because all the rap or hip-hop is part of the popular culture. They make a gajillion dollars, win Grammys or other awards, play it on... well, used to play it on MTv back when they played videos, everything you do with "white" music. It's not treated as anything special. It's pop culture. Pop culture gets mocked, lampooned, parodied, and everything else. If you don't like it, don't put it out there. Don't put it into the mix and then throw a fit when it's treated like... pop culture. Face it, no one is wasting their time making ironic covers of songs no one has ever heard of -- it has to be a song that's deep enough in the cultural bedrock to make the white kids say "Haha, I know that song!"

And, again, I don't know if any of the actual artists in question are objecting to it or if it's just this one person telling me how wrong it is.

Edited, May 2nd 2012 11:24am by Jophiel
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#63 May 02 2012 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
You are either choosing to ignore or just willfully refusing to acknowledge that the cultures are not equal in racial standing or bias

I'm willfully refusing to acknowledge that this is a good enough reason to repeatedly take from Culture A while declaring that Culture B is off limits and thinking "All of your stuff is mine and all of my stuff is mine but you better not touch any of my stuff, you racist" is a good way to help bridge racial divides. What is this, musical reparations?

By all means, rise up and protest the injustice being perpetrated upon your culture. I'll be at my mother's.

Quote:
Of course, if we've reached the point where I should care about Whitey McJezebelBlogger's opinion on the holy sanctity of "Cop Killer" and whether it's properly reflected in some garage band's cover, I suppose that's making progress on the important issues. I don't know if any actual black musical artists give a rat's ass the same way she does.

Sure they do.
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#64 May 02 2012 at 10:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think there's injustice being perpetrated on anyone's culture on account of songs being covered/sampled. That's the difference.
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#65 May 02 2012 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think the thing were forgetting is that 95% of all covers are horrible failures that shouldn't have been done period.
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#66 May 02 2012 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Back on music or a sec, I think part of why I'm not buying this is because all the rap or hip-hop is part of the popular culture. They make a gajillion dollars, win Grammys or other awards, play it on... well, used to play it on MTv back when they played videos, everything you do with "white" music. It's not treated as anything special. It's pop culture. Pop culture gets mocked, lampooned, parodied, and everything else. If you don't like it, don't put it out there. Don't put it into the mix and then throw a fit when it's treated like... pop culture. Face it, no one is wasting their time making ironic covers of songs no one has ever heard of -- it has to be a song that's deep enough in the cultural bedrock to make the white kids say "Haha, I know that song!"

I think Sir-Mix-A-Lot knew "Baby Got Back" was bound to be parodied. I think Tupac or Public Enemy probably less so. Wouldn't the Beatles or Springsteen or Bob Dylan be offended if songs that they meant to be social commentary were mocked? Probably. I don't know if making money off your call to social consciousness makes it okay for people to make light of the underlying message. I would argue that this right belongs to and remains with the artist. Things are up for interpretation, but ownership and reinvention is touchy. I honestly can't say that they are right or wrong, but I would never say they don't have to right to an opinion.
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#67 May 02 2012 at 10:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Atomicflea wrote:
Wouldn't the Beatles or Springsteen or Bob Dylan be offended if songs that they meant to be social commentary were mocked? Probably.

Maybe. Would it be racism? Probably not. Someone call Bob Dylan and ask him if he's bent out of shape over Weird Al's parody of "Subterranean Homesick Blues" with "Bob".

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I honestly can't say that they are right or wrong, but I would never say they don't have to right to an opinion.

When the opinion comes down to calling someone a racist for making the song or calling the listener a racist for listening to it, they'd better have a better defense than that.
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#68 May 02 2012 at 10:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Atomicflea wrote:
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Of course, if we've reached the point where I should care about Whitey McJezebelBlogger's opinion on the holy sanctity of "Cop Killer" and whether it's properly reflected in some garage band's cover, I suppose that's making progress on the important issues. I don't know if any actual black musical artists give a rat's ass the same way she does.

Sure they do.


I read a bit from both of those links, and though it did give me a headache, I wasn't able to suss out anything suggesting that they felt that their music was off-limits to white folk.
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#69 May 02 2012 at 10:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
I think the thing were forgetting is that 95% of all covers are horrible failures that shouldn't have been done period.
How do you expect me to pad out my album if I can't do a metal cover of Imagine?
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#70 May 02 2012 at 10:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thread needs more Weird Al.
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#71 May 02 2012 at 11:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sweetums wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
I think the thing were forgetting is that 95% of all covers are horrible failures that shouldn't have been done period.
How do you expect me to pad out my album if I can't do a metal cover of Imagine?


Be creative dammit! Smiley: mad

There's no excuse for stuff like this:


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#72 May 02 2012 at 11:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Miley Cyrus is racist against Heroin-Addicted Americans?
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#73 May 02 2012 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Sweetums wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
I think the thing were forgetting is that 95% of all covers are horrible failures that shouldn't have been done period.
How do you expect me to pad out my album if I can't do a metal cover of Imagine?


Be creative dammit! Smiley: mad
Well, yeah. That's why I'm improving the lyrics.

Edited, May 2nd 2012 12:05pm by Sweetums
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#74 May 02 2012 at 11:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
There's no excuse for stuff like this:
I didn't need to see the video to agree that there is no excuse for Miley Cyrus.

Well, there is one excuse to keep her around: The eventual crash that all Disney Tarts go through is always amusing.
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#75 May 02 2012 at 11:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Demea wrote:
Miley Cyrus is racist against Heroin-Addicted Americans?


Can't you tell? She took everything that was good and pure about being a lazy drug-addicted low-life and bastardized it. Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, May 2nd 2012 10:09am by someproteinguy
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#76 May 02 2012 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
I don't think there's injustice being perpetrated on anyone's culture on account of songs being covered/sampled. That's the difference.
What I'm saying is that I think you lack the bona fides to make that call on behalf of other cultures.
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#77 May 02 2012 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Demea wrote:
Miley Cyrus is racist against Heroin-Addicted Americans?


Can't you tell? She took everything that was good and pure about being a lazy drug-addicted low-life and bastardized it.

I was more offended by her muffin top than by her rendition of the song.
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#78 May 02 2012 at 11:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Atomicflea wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I don't think there's injustice being perpetrated on anyone's culture on account of songs being covered/sampled. That's the difference.
What I'm saying is that I think you lack the bona fides to make that call on behalf of other cultures.

Isn't it inherently racist to have different standards for different cultures?
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#79 May 02 2012 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Demea wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Demea wrote:
Miley Cyrus is racist against Heroin-Addicted Americans?


Can't you tell? She took everything that was good and pure about being a lazy drug-addicted low-life and bastardized it.

I was more offended by her muffin top than by her rendition of the song.


Well sure, but lets leave that determination to the lazy drug-addicted low-lifes. We shouldn't be speaking for other cultures. Smiley: wink
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#80 May 02 2012 at 11:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Thread needs more Weird Al.

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#81 May 02 2012 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Demea wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I don't think there's injustice being perpetrated on anyone's culture on account of songs being covered/sampled. That's the difference.
What I'm saying is that I think you lack the bona fides to make that call on behalf of other cultures.

Isn't it inherently racist to have different standards for different cultures?

That's the sort of typical generalization that doesn't hold up when what you are setting the standards for is one race's determination if what is okay or appropriate for another. Like I might feel like Jews are a bunch of whiny cnuts and shut up about Israel already, but I would never hold my views as having equal to or more weight than an actual Jewish person, our an Israelite simply because I'm awesome and yay me.
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#82 May 02 2012 at 11:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Atomicflea wrote:
What I'm saying is that I think you lack the bona fides to make that call on behalf of other cultures.

I have the same bona fides as the Jezebel chick to make that call Smiley: grin
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#83 May 02 2012 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Atomicflea wrote:
Demea wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I don't think there's injustice being perpetrated on anyone's culture on account of songs being covered/sampled. That's the difference.
What I'm saying is that I think you lack the bona fides to make that call on behalf of other cultures.

Isn't it inherently racist to have different standards for different cultures?

That's the sort of typical generalization that doesn't hold up when what you are setting the standards for is one race's determination if what is okay or appropriate for another. Like I might feel like Jews are a bunch of whiny cnuts and shut up about Israel already, but I would never hold my views as having equal to or more weight than an actual Jewish person, our an Israelite simply because I'm awesome and yay me.

I guess I should specify that I meant general/societal standards, not personal/racial standards. Should there even be a discussion about whether or not it's okay to sample music by white guys as opposed to music by black guys? Shouldn't the discussion simply be whether or not it's okay to sample anybody else's music, regardless of race?

Like Joph, I fail to see how the race of the original artist has anything to do with the issue of stealing borrowing music specifically.
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#84 May 02 2012 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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Atomicflea wrote:
Demea wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I don't think there's injustice being perpetrated on anyone's culture on account of songs being covered/sampled. That's the difference.
What I'm saying is that I think you lack the bona fides to make that call on behalf of other cultures.

Isn't it inherently racist to have different standards for different cultures?

That's the sort of typical generalization that doesn't hold up when what you are setting the standards for is one race's determination if what is okay or appropriate for another. Like I might feel like Jews are a bunch of whiny cnuts and shut up about Israel already, but I would never hold my views as having equal to or more weight than an actual Jewish person, our an Israelite simply because I'm awesome and yay me.


Why is a black man's music owned by his culture (whatever that means)?
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#85 May 02 2012 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
What I'm saying is that I think you lack the bona fides to make that call on behalf of other cultures.

I have the same bona fides as the Jezebel chick to make that call Smiley: grin
You would if you were advocating. Don't expect the same if you are opposing, however tokenly. Smiley: grin Smiley: grin
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#86 May 02 2012 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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You would if you were advocating.

Smiley: rolleyes
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#87 May 02 2012 at 12:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kavekk wrote:
Why is a black man's music owned by his culture (whatever that means)?


I'll take a stab. We like to over-generalize our personal feelings to our 'cultural group?'

Just for fun, let's stick with the Nirvana/grunge thing as a 'white people' example. Take the more rural areas of Western Washington in the 80s and early 90s. It was an area suffering from the inevitable decline of the traditional logging and fishing industries which had been powering along unsustainably for years. There's high unemployment, and a general feeling of hopelessness with many people as their towns are more or less shutting down around them. Suddenly there are no good jobs around, and there really isn't much hope of finding anything without moving out of the area, leaving your family behind, etc. Heaven help your prospects if you're a youth growing up in that area. So out of that you get this "dark, gloomy, woe-is-me" Seattle sound that was particularly reflective of the local culture at the time. So does it seem particularly weird when some silver-spoon Disney Princess takes up a grunge song? Are there people who would get offended by it? Um yeah, but seriously try defining a universal cultural boundary there or something.

It's not exactly black and white... Smiley: clown

Okay, awful pun I know... Smiley: frown



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#88 May 02 2012 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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"Black music" owes its popularity to a few daring white men anyway. Not to mention that jazz and blues, from which hip hop grew, gained its popularity by being played by black musicians for white patrons in swanky clubs in New Orleans, Tupelo, Memphis, St Louis, and Chicago.
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#89 May 02 2012 at 1:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
So does it seem particularly weird when some silver-spoon Disney Princess takes up a grunge song?

Sure, but it's hardly offensive. I'm sure someone out there is either amused by it or thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread. I disagree but it's nothing to take up arms about.
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Are there people who would get offended by it?

There's someone offended by everything. If they can't give me a good reason for it, I reserve the right to not give a fuck.
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#90 May 02 2012 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Demea wrote:
I guess I should specify that I meant general/societal standards, not personal/racial standards. Should there even be a discussion about whether or not it's okay to sample music by white guys as opposed to music by black guys? Shouldn't the discussion simply be whether or not it's okay to sample anybody else's music, regardless of race?

Like Joph, I fail to see how the race of the original artist has anything to do with the issue of stealing borrowing music specifically.
I don't know that you can divorce the individual from society. Maybe other minorities can speak to this, but even when I was completely unattached to either my femaleness or otherness inevitably comes up much more than I want it to. The thing is that there is very little control over how you are viewed from the outside. There is a presumption that would not otherwise exist, whatever that presumption may be. I can see an artist or art form being very proprietary of that expression being converted to something other than what they intended, and that is only compounded by issues of race.

In short, yes you can have that discussion, but not regardless of race. This world where race isn't a consideration, I don't think it exists.
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#91 May 02 2012 at 1:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Isn't racism, at its root, about respect? I respect you as a person and not because of what race you are or are not. I afford everyone an equal amount of respect, regardless of their race. I don't disrespect someone purely because they belong to any specific race (or don't belong).

For the music argument, I see an argument that "black" music has to be afforded a level of respect from "white" artists that "black" musicians don't have to give "white" artists/music on account of them being black and white artists being white. There's probably no argument that will get me on board with that.
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#92 May 02 2012 at 1:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
So does it seem particularly weird when some silver-spoon Disney Princess takes up a grunge song?

Sure, but it's hardly offensive. I'm sure someone out there is either amused by it or thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread. I disagree but it's nothing to take up arms about.


Don't belittle the hopelessness we all felt! Smiley: mad

(Did I generalize that enough?)

Anyway, so much for my foray into strawman building and devils advocate work. I guess I'll keep my day job... Smiley: lol

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#93 May 02 2012 at 1:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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We need to wrap this up. There's three more points to get through after this music one before we've solved racism.
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#94 May 02 2012 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
You would if you were advocating.

Smiley: rolleyes

I can't think of someone asking you for bona fides when a person not a member or a minority group advocates for a position on that subject as opposed to arguing against it, but maybe you can. Lord knows you know more about anything than anyone else. Smiley: grinSmiley: grinSmiley: grin
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#95 May 02 2012 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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I am the Jophiel; I speak for the classic rock artists.

That's advocating!
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#96 May 02 2012 at 3:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Atomicflea wrote:
In short, yes you can have that discussion, but not regardless of race. This world where race isn't a consideration, I don't think it exists.

Not if we keep inevitably bringing race into the discussion!

Be the change you want to see in the world, Flea!
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#97 May 02 2012 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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#98 May 02 2012 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm impressed that the blogger didn't bother to research music history before making her absurd statement of racism.

Ragtime, Blues, Jazz, even Rock and Roll all have 2 things in common. 1: They all originated in the southern United States. 2: They are an amalgamation on European ( "white") and African ( "black") Music.

None of them would exist if "Whites" didn't play "Black" music and vice versa. Her statement shows a gross ignorance of how music as an art form evolves.

tl;dr : Embracing and incorporating elements from other cultures isn't racist. Calling it racist however, is pretty damn stupid.
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#99 May 02 2012 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
Demea wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Demea wrote:
Miley Cyrus is racist against Heroin-Addicted Americans?


Can't you tell? She took everything that was good and pure about being a lazy drug-addicted low-life and bastardized it.

I was more offended by her muffin top than by her rendition of the song.


Fatist. Smiley: tongue

Thanks for better explaining what I was trying to say Sweetums.

In reference to the black women have pretty hair thing, I know it isn't exactly a stereotype, but some white women do have a tendency to exoticize black women's hair, like in the example I gave. Like other people have mentioned, black women's hair is a BFD, and I think it's probably a big part of their culture (I obviously can't say this with complete certainty since I'm not a black woman). To have a white woman come up to them and exclaim how awesome their hair is and basically demand to know how they do their hair so they can replicate it, that's gotta be pretty off-putting, not to mention objectifying.

Edited, May 2nd 2012 4:43pm by PigtailsOfDoom
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#100 May 02 2012 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Demea wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Demea wrote:
Miley Cyrus is racist against Heroin-Addicted Americans?


Can't you tell? She took everything that was good and pure about being a lazy drug-addicted low-life and bastardized it.

I was more offended by her muffin top than by her rendition of the song.


Fatist. Smiley: tongue

Thanks for better explaining what I was trying to say Sweetums.


Apparently she's been hitting the gym to get ready for bikini season (TMZ said so, I think), so you don't have to worry about that muffin top anymore. No more need to be offended.
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#101 May 02 2012 at 4:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Demea wrote:
Miley Cyrus is racist against Heroin-Addicted Americans?


No, against humans in general.
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