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Souls: are there too many, or is it just fine?Follow

#1 Nov 22 2010 at 9:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I noticed that many souls are very similar, but have different elements.

For example, the Pyromancer and the Stormcaller have very similar descriptions, except that one deals fire damage and the other doesn't.

What do you think, are there too many souls or is it just a way to force you to use them wisely for different encounters?

:)
#2 Nov 22 2010 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
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its hard to say snice we dont know what ever class does, and i dont really thinkg any sound alot alike, im not sure how pyros and stormcallers are anything alike.. pyros use flames to scorch everything around them, whereas stormcallers mix wind and water to use their spells and must combine said elements to do much of anything
#3 Nov 22 2010 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I think variation is wonderful, unless it's superficial, and while I'm sure that on paper some of these classes may seem the same we will have to wait until we can get our hands on them to see if they play differently enough to justify being separate.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 10:27pm by LimeOfDoom
#4 Nov 22 2010 at 9:28 PM Rating: Decent
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There will definitely be a huge variation in class builds. Hopefully not everyone will spec towards that 1 end all be all build.
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#5 Nov 22 2010 at 9:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Kinsume wrote:
There will definitely be a huge variation in class builds. Hopefully not everyone will spec towards that 1 end all be all build.


That is what I meant, and also, the only difference I noticed between Pyro and Storm is the type of element they use.

They are both described as SLOW but POWERFULL casters.
#6 Nov 22 2010 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Well element types are key in this game it seems, odds are certain bosses or monsters will be much weak vs a specific element type. So having them have their specs setup accordingly is going to be key for raids.
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#7 Nov 22 2010 at 9:42 PM Rating: Decent
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When filling out the beta application forum on the Rift website it had us mention what some of our concerns of the game were. I mentioned the potential fear of making the callings too similar to each other. I really hope Trion can manage to give each calling it's own niche and feel to it giving players a great deal of flexibility and selection to choose from.

Obviously as the game progresses there will be people and sites that number crunch to find the optimal min/max builds available for each core class, but I really hope it does't end up being a specific "Need X Class for DPS" when upwards of 1/2 of the callings are capable of DPS.

I'm also a little concerned that if the classes do play fairly different from each other, such as DPS rotations, etc, that players who decide to "respec" to a build they are not too experienced with will hurt the rest of the group in a dungeon situation. In many games the time spent leveling a character gives you time to slowly learn skills and imprint them into your head to the point where you don't even have to think about doing something -- you just do it. If you can chance your class at any time with a whole new set of skills, it's like firing up a max level character of a class you have never played.

I'm not saying I am against this idea, infact I think it is pretty cool. But it will be interesting to see how the community will act a few months after launch when looking for members for raids and groups.
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#8 Nov 22 2010 at 9:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Honestly in a well organized guild you'll never have that problem. People will be told what classes are needed for the raid in order to beat the bosses and progress and they will spec towards that end or most likely be replaced.
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#9 Nov 22 2010 at 10:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I personally feel that there are way too many. It seem it might be so overwhelming that you are not even going to care about all the others. For the most part, I think the majority of players are going to go one way, and stick to it, not even caring about the rest of the souls.
#10 Nov 22 2010 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Honestly in a well organized guild you'll never have that problem. People will be told what classes are needed for the raid in order to beat the bosses and progress and they will spec towards that end or most likely be replaced.


..which in all honesty would be great. That would mean that each calling has a role and a place, and if the developers can reach a happy medium where most classes are viable I will be extremely impressed.
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#11 Nov 22 2010 at 10:30 PM Rating: Decent
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My guess is the players that take the time to acquire all the souls for a particular calling are gonna be your guilds best additions almost a guarentee that there will be a cycle where 1 element has an element its weakest to and 1 that it is strongest against so having the ability to switch between all the different elements will be key to a successful mage so dont always plan on being the mean little pyro in a water rift a good player is going to know how to exploit the rifts for their weakness lets just hope there is enough inventory space to carry all that gears :p
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#12 Nov 22 2010 at 10:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Nimec wrote:
Quote:
Honestly in a well organized guild you'll never have that problem. People will be told what classes are needed for the raid in order to beat the bosses and progress and they will spec towards that end or most likely be replaced.


..which in all honesty would be great. That would mean that each calling has a role and a place, and if the developers can reach a happy medium where most classes are viable I will be extremely impressed.



ya im sure you all remember your first mmo so happy to be apart of it all but the choices the choices! im gonna be this job and im gonna be so awsome at it until that faithful day when you finally reach level cap and want to get your feet wet in some end-game only to be pushed aside with "ohhh ya well that job really doesnt help our cause, but if you level this we can talk"... a month or 2 later hey guild leader I leveld that job yall wanted... "ohhh well ya since they nerfed it in patch 10002010010 it really isnt any good with that 2 dps loss... come back when you level this".......... fujkadja "I like hello-kitty island adventure alot more than this dumb ol game"
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FFXI: Makilla 85 BLU 85 PLD 85 WAR (about to retire)
WoW: Napalmdeathh 80 Warlock Stryychnine 80 Rogue (retired)
#13 Nov 22 2010 at 10:37 PM Rating: Decent
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brinkfloyd1 wrote:
Nimec wrote:
Quote:
Honestly in a well organized guild you'll never have that problem. People will be told what classes are needed for the raid in order to beat the bosses and progress and they will spec towards that end or most likely be replaced.


..which in all honesty would be great. That would mean that each calling has a role and a place, and if the developers can reach a happy medium where most classes are viable I will be extremely impressed.



ya im sure you all remember your first mmo so happy to be apart of it all but the choices the choices! im gonna be this job and im gonna be so awsome at it until that faithful day when you finally reach level cap and want to get your feet wet in some end-game only to be pushed aside with "ohhh ya well that job really doesnt help our cause, but if you level this we can talk"... a month or 2 later hey guild leader I leveld that job yall wanted... "ohhh well ya since they nerfed it in patch 10002010010 it really isnt any good with that 2 dps loss... come back when you level this".......... fujkadja "I like hello-kitty island adventure alot more than this dumb ol game"


Actually with the system in this game changing your build once you hit level cap is as simple as changing one of your presets to the required build for raiding. Since you get 4 of them, having 1 just for raiding alone isn't too bad.
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#14 Nov 22 2010 at 10:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Agreed. For sure there is a lot of flexibility with this system, it will be interesting to see how the community uses it.

Someone on the official forums said something I liked. "I bring my character, not my class." I thought that was really great, and something that could hold true. Players who invest the time to learn their class and various callings and play them well will most likely not have a hard time justifying their position in the group.
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#15 Nov 22 2010 at 11:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Nimec wrote:
"I bring my character, not my class."


Feels great, doesn't it? :)
#16 Nov 23 2010 at 3:55 AM Rating: Decent
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At first I had doubts that even with all these possibilities. You will be forced into a certain build. But the more I read about rift in interviews. The less I'm concerned. The point of the soulsystem is to be able to make a class that you wanna play. Be it a combo of souls or 1 soul to the fullest.I'm certain that some set-ups will be higher dps/heals/defence than others, but I think none will be that significant. In a interview Allen (dungeun/raid maker) said that all tank classes are good in tanking.

My concern will still be to choose between the final skill of one soul tree VS combo of different souls
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#17 Nov 23 2010 at 4:00 AM Rating: Decent
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When I first started reading about the game I was thinking that there is going to be way too much to choose from. Then you think of there concept of changing souls when another is needed and having a three class build leaves a lot of variety and some useful classes. I do worry though that it doesn't leave much room for growth in the future for more souls.
#18 Nov 23 2010 at 4:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Nimec wrote:
Someone on the official forums said something I liked. "I bring my character, not my class." I thought that was really great, and something that could hold true. Players who invest the time to learn their class and various callings and play them well will most likely not have a hard time justifying their position in the group.


You sir hit the nail on its head. I like the line: "I bring my character, not my class". Not only the class matters, in my opinion also the person behind the character matters. Nobody wants a powerful character in their group who is an ***. I know to little about the souls to say or in the end everyone will spec towards one certain set up. However seeing how Rift is developing this game at the moment, I don't think that will happen. Most likely they will make it so you can be strong one way or the other way. How you play your class and how good you know your class will make the difference in the end.


Edited, Nov 23rd 2010 5:05am by Dshaft

Edited, Nov 23rd 2010 5:05am by Dshaft
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#19 Nov 23 2010 at 8:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly for most of the lower level content it doesn't matter if you really know your class or not, hopefully for the endgame raids there will be a difficulty curse that really separates the true guilds who learn to work together from the crap ones.
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#20 Nov 23 2010 at 10:16 AM Rating: Decent
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You are right in that, but I don't think that this will cause any problems.
It will just give us a **** of alot of options to choose from and imo thats great.
Finally an mmo where you are not limited in playstyle options.
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#21 Nov 23 2010 at 10:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly, instead of having the generic "Mage" class that has a billion different skills from every **** element on the planet (or not) I would rather have it like this.
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#22 Nov 23 2010 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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I actually think the variety of souls is one of the things that really catches my attention. Being able to customize my character helps me stand out more in the world instead of being strictly set to one class and having to create multiple characters.
#23 Nov 23 2010 at 10:29 AM Rating: Decent
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This is one thing that I believe a lot of folks are curious about. Until we can really get in there, I don't want to judge how they will work. Some things may be similar, but to a different character, one may be a bit more helpful than another. I am curious as to how the classes will balance each other out since there are so many options.
~Ara

Edit: I like the soul system idea as well! <3 [plus i spelled something wrong...shh!]

Edited, Nov 23rd 2010 11:31am by Araielle
#24 Nov 23 2010 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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To answer the main question of the thread without delving into specifics that we really don't know much about yet... NO! The fact that there ARE so many choices is one of the major draws to this game (for me)! I'm tired of being pigeonholed into one or two options and calling it good. The more flexibility the better imho.
#25 Nov 23 2010 at 12:09 PM Rating: Decent
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The amount of classes do not matter and we cannot comment as we do not know how they work, what does matter is that the classes are balanced and that they work well in the mechanics of the game.
#26 Nov 23 2010 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm hopeful that with so many choices in each archtype, there will be more room to spec as you want and not be caught up in the "you have to have X,Y and Z or you suck" mentality.
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#27 Nov 23 2010 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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WildeNight wrote:
I'm hopeful that with so many choices in each archtype, there will be more room to spec as you want and not be caught up in the "you have to have X,Y and Z or you suck" mentality.


Raids will still have specific types they are looking for depending on the raid you are going on. Since players are able to quickly change their build with 1 of the 4 setups they can premake a raid asking them to spec a certain way for a raid won't be uncommon.
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#28 Nov 23 2010 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Souls remind me of 3.5 D&D edition prestige classes. Some are very similar yet you really cannot have too many seeing you can combine a few and it creates variety.

I have not seen (even if it has been revealed) yet how the mechanics behind it work but even a very few elements from different souls can create a unique synergy for a favorite concept. Having many souls (and it is obvious choosing only from souls in your core class will not dilute class structure to make balancing impossible, at least from a developer stand point) allows for more variety.

It is a differing concept from the (now) traditional talent tree approach. Ultimately those tend to pigeon hole you into set templates and playstyles anyway. Combining power access and feat/talent'like abilities within several combinations diverifies class concepts greatly.

Obviously this is theory crafting 101 at this juncture.
#29 Nov 23 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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If they are vastly different it will do as the developers intend and cause there to be innumerable build. If they are all similar than it will just cause cosmetic differences for the most part I think. Which is still a win because it causes your character to be different from the rest in that one additional way...
#30 Nov 23 2010 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I just checked out the RIFT class builder link from the other thread. Very interesting.

With 4 base classes and essentially player chosen talent trees linked to spell progression, the devs can simply add on more souls over time without destroying the base trinity style structure yet allowing for more player options for character concept.

The numerical combination of powers and talents are immense yet new souls can be added in the future without worry of group dynamic destruction.

As mentioned before this is very similar to new edition D&D/Saga style character development. More of a hybrid between prestige class and feat building.
#31 Nov 23 2010 at 6:58 PM Rating: Decent
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The amount of soul combinations presents quite a challenge in terms of balance. Some will most likely be useless (they've stated as much, I believe) will others will end up being OP (probably in PvP). But giving the customer options is never a bad thing. And it will take a while before people start min/maxing builds to determine optimal dps setups, etc.
#32 Nov 23 2010 at 7:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I suppose this many souls can be overwhelming. I suppose it all boils down to what is your flavor and what you prefer to do vs what is good at what.
#33 Nov 23 2010 at 7:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Vespula wrote:
The amount of soul combinations presents quite a challenge in terms of balance. Some will most likely be useless (they've stated as much, I believe) will others will end up being OP (probably in PvP). But giving the customer options is never a bad thing. And it will take a while before people start min/maxing builds to determine optimal dps setups, etc.

Bahh the **** with balance. I want the classes to be fun, I wanna explore, quest, clear rifts, dungeons and raids. I wanna craft awesome op sh*t! I wanna be bad ***! Just want to have a good time I don't give a sh*t if one caster has a higher damage magic missile or if one tank can multiple-mob tank better.

PS: And remember people that this is not WoW, with predifined classes, THIS IS... TELARA!!! >_<

Edited, Nov 23rd 2010 8:20pm by ravetgn
#34 Nov 23 2010 at 8:32 PM Rating: Decent
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The nature of the system makes too many souls impossible. You have to give one thing up to get another. And as long as there is something unique about each, there is no downside. There will be souls utterly useless to non-raiders and souls that serve no functional purpose in raiding. This is a good thing, because it means you can customize to what you like to do.

On the other side, player skill is always a much bigger factor than people like to admit, instead blaming their own shortcomings on their own class. I've seen this is every MMO, and it always comes down to what the player brings to the table, not the character class. Will more options make inexperienced players have a harder time? Maybe. But thats what forums and wikis are for.

As for two classes that do mostly the same thing but look different, that sounds great to me. Maybe I'll be in a mood to use lightning bolts one day and fireballs the next. Either way, having the option makes me happy.
#35 Nov 25 2010 at 12:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Can't wait to hop in the VIP event. I will surely host a thread about different souls and which ones are the most usefull, and if any aren't.
#36 Nov 25 2010 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I mean for me i guess it all comes down to do they all feel different when playing them or do two feel like im playing the same class. I do think right now its a good mix and they all sound like they will play different and have a different style to bring to a group or raid but thats just from reading about all of them. I have faith in the Rift dev team that they will give us a good class system.
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#37 Nov 26 2010 at 3:19 AM Rating: Decent
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LimeOfDoom wrote:
I think variation is wonderful, unless it's superficial, and while I'm sure that on paper some of these classes may seem the same we will have to wait until we can get our hands on them to see if they play differently enough to justify being separate.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 10:27pm by LimeOfDoom


Totally agree.
#38 Nov 26 2010 at 3:50 AM Rating: Good
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JUST FINE!
#39 Nov 26 2010 at 6:49 AM Rating: Decent
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It s true we will have tons of options with soul systems, but i think will happen like all game after sometimes, there will be a build that will give the max dps or max heaaling or max tanking and people will move to that configurations like always happens, although is true that for example for some special situations you will need a dps (fire based or death base) but with the easy way to change souls configurations same character would do it.
#40 Nov 26 2010 at 7:44 AM Rating: Decent
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The one concern I have is class balancing. With characters able to choose a wide variety of paths with multiple specs, it's going to take a lot of tweaking to get the balance right. I remember the days of the nerf bat hitting a particular group almost every update. Hopefully Trion has found a way to make adjustments that doesn't cause too much pain on one class or another.

pj
#41 Nov 26 2010 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Sadly i think will always be one or two OP classes or combos, i would like to be wrong but its just such a fine line to walk esp when it comes to PVP
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#42 Nov 26 2010 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I've always been a huge fan of the 'choose your adventure' style class like what was found in Oblivion, so I'm looking forward to all the choices Rift will have to offer. Yes, some may end up being better then others, but that is where more experienced players come in and help others (who are willing to learn of course). You'll always get those couple people that have weird or random specs, but the thing is, you should be able to play the game the way you want. Blizzard has pretty much made their talent trees SO simple, that even a monkey could figure it out, which really makes it somewhat unappealing. I think a lot of people who are looking for more variety are going to flock to Rift to see what the buzz is about.
#43 Nov 26 2010 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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i definitely agree with the statement that there are A LOT OF SOULS, but i think within every bodies first couple newbie characters, we will all probably understand it better. there is definitely never going to be the same exact two characters. ganna be sweet.
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