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How powerful should loot be?Follow

#1 Nov 24 2010 at 5:35 PM Rating: Decent
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How important do you think loot should be when determining how powerful a player is?

How much more powerful should a level 50 player fully decked out in endgame gear be over a player that just turned level 50? Should he be 10% more powerful? 25%? 100%?

I personally think that once a player takes all the time to get endgame gear, he should be at least 25% more powerful than someone who just turned 50. However, I don't think gear should make people so much more powerful that folks that just hit 50 can't even compete.
#2 Nov 24 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Decent
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This is a loaded question and strikes right at the heart of MMO design. There is plenty of disagreement in this area. It comes down to if you are asking for a skill/level based system or an item based system. Which then brings up the debate about how long it should take to level up and how steep the experience curve is. Then you have to ask the question of what is going to drive people to continue to play after they hit said level cap. If there is not enough incentive to continue to try to get the better items, then people will not continue to play. Its a tricky balance because if the raid loot is too good, a lot of casual players get turned off, because the bar for pick up groups gets set too high.

I think a tiered approach at loot is the best, which is what most MMOs have been doing for a while now. I think a full set of raid gear in a group should trivialize most group based content. The loot that drops in the group based content though should be good enough to attempt the raid content, at least until you start obtaining that loot. However, the group based content needs to remain hard enough that people can't solo it.

So to answer your question... endgame gear needs to be powerful enough that it allows people to regularly continue getting it once they have it. So the group content should result in gear that makes you 20-30% better, whereas high end raid gear should be closer to about 50% better. Enough that there is incentive for people to pursue it. Raiders need to be rewarded for spending the time it takes to obtain the gear, but at the same time they can't be so much better that they refuse to group with other players.

By design though, I expect a lot of stratification in this game, simply because the class system will separate good players from bad players.
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#3 Nov 24 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess it depends who your opponent is. In PvP, an advantage of 25% would be too much to overcome and would discourage people from participating in PvP. Skill needs to be reintroduced to PvP combat. If not you just have geared twinks running around griefing, like in Aion.

In PvE, it would all depend on the tier of the content. It would be fine if a fully geared player at the 3rd tier, for example, does 25% more dps or healing than a freshly leveled 50. But I don't think the difference should be that severe at the start of endgame.
#4 Nov 24 2010 at 6:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Ah yes, PvP. The solution there is simple, PvP and PvE bonuses need to be implemented separately to work correctly. For example, PvP mitigation needs to be separate from PvE mitigation. This allows for much easier itemization, and allows for balancing each. Plus, it keeps them from affecting the other, because nothing is worse than PvP nerfs affecting PvE and vice versa.
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#5 Nov 24 2010 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I think a tiered system would work best for PvE.

Something like Lvl 50 Quest Rewards is 0
Lvl 50 Group Quest rewards 5%
Lvl 50 Rift Rewards 7%
Lvl 50 Bonus Rift Rewards 10%
Lvl 50 Raid Rewards 15%
Lvl 50 Bonus Raid or Heroic Raid Rewards 20%
Lvl 50 Tier 2 Raid rewards 20%
Lvl 50 Tier 2 Bonus/Heroic Raid 25%

and continuing like that.

For PVP I would hope the Stats stay the same the models are just different, possibly different set bonuses that are a tiny boost but nothing massive. This way PvP is about Skill, PvE is about Skill and Gear.

Edited, Nov 24th 2010 7:20pm by Entoc
#6 Nov 24 2010 at 6:28 PM Rating: Good
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I enjoy some PvP, but I also really enjoy PvE. It would really be a deterrent to the overall game for me if there were separate types of gear for PvP and PvE.
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#7 Nov 24 2010 at 6:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't see a way to make PVP skill base and give PVE a Carrot to chase without them being different gear sets. Of course that may be why they don't pay me to develop video games.
#8 Nov 24 2010 at 6:32 PM Rating: Decent
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PvP gear should focus on stamina and damage mitigation. Maybe boosts or bonuses to certain skills that are only useful in PvP. PvE gear should be the opposite: bonuses to dps and healing capabilities, as well as categories such as strength, intellect, spirit, etc. In short, in PvP great loot should make you harder to kill, but not allow you to kill faster. In PvE, great loot should let you dps and heal more to down those bosses faster.
#9 Nov 24 2010 at 8:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I think there has to be a good balance because if that is the case you take some one that has all the gear but no skill. 25% sounds like a good medium but it is hard to an actual percentage on it. I just hope for a nice balance between gear and skill.
#10 Nov 24 2010 at 8:18 PM Rating: Decent
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This is a tough question in terms of PvP. Most games have the PvE aspect of loot pretty nailed down and don't have problems with it but PvP has proven to be a whole different beast. You want to give people who devote time to getting better gear an advantage but it can't be so big that a new person or a person who just doesn't have as much time on their hands is at such a disadvantage that they have no shot.

Aion was just awful at this. The top two colors of gear were blue and gold however a person in all blue gear could fight a person with just one or two gold pieces and they had no shot. It was like gold wasn't just one step above blue but was closer to ten! You'd see the stats on the blue gear and think those are nice but then the gold gear had a TON of usefull stats like movement speed and PvP dmg and just all kinds.

IMO the more ability they give to "twink" in a game the worse the PvP gets. So there do need to be some pvp goals for people to aim for but it can't be to much or it will ruin the game.
#11 Nov 24 2010 at 8:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree... the gear imbalance in Aion was ridiculous. Level 30 twinks could burn down a lvl 50 in a few seconds. I think the difference between blue and gold gear was one of the reasons PvP in that game was nonexistent. Regardless of your skill, you had little shot against a twinked player.
#12 Nov 24 2010 at 10:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I personally don't know how powerful loot should be. I guess it should be equal to the level of the creatures you are fighting. What I do wish is that you could actually craft weapons and armor that are equivalent to the loot that you can pick up.
#13 Nov 24 2010 at 10:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Maybe it's just me, but why do developers even make high-end gear for lower levels? What is the thought process in that? Shouldn't everyones goal be to eventually hit level cap? So then what purpose would it be to collect high-end gear at level 30 when the level cap is level 50?

Another user said, there has to be enough incentive for players to want to get that high-end gear, else what is the point in spending all that time trying to get said gear? If we are talking about gear/player skill, if two people of equal gear enter the arena, what does the game come down to? Player skill, right? I guess what I'm trying to get at, if you are a casual player, you shouldn't go into pvp with the expectation that you are going to be able to compete with someone who has worked their *** off to get the gear they have. Consequently, this also means players that just hit level cap will have to struggle against other players that have been at level cap for some time now.

I'd imagine this is something developers struggle with. Even the great World of Warcraft struggles in this regard.
#14 Nov 26 2010 at 12:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Cyanix wrote:
Ah yes, PvP. The solution there is simple, PvP and PvE bonuses need to be implemented separately to work correctly. For example, PvP mitigation needs to be separate from PvE mitigation. This allows for much easier itemization, and allows for balancing each. Plus, it keeps them from affecting the other, because nothing is worse than PvP nerfs affecting PvE and vice versa.


So do we know if Rift will have pvp gear or pve gear with pvp stats?
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#15 Nov 30 2010 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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Little info on this topic for you guys that i found.

Ten Ton Hammer: How big a role will equipment play on a character’s power? Are we talking about a gear-centric game or will a player’s skill play more of a role than the actual equipment they have?

Drew Clowery: Obviously, gear is going to be important. I’m going to quote Scott Hartsman, who told me right after I got here something very interesting. He said that if the game has loot in it, the loot is going to be important. So, we definitely feel that that is the case. Loot is an important part of our game, and so it has to have an important impact upon the characters. That said, it’s not completely overwhelming. For things like raids, coordination and everybody working together and know what they’re supposed to be doing are more important than the gear you brought. We don’t design encounters to be gear checks. We design them to see if you can get together and do this. Maybe there’s increasing difficulty, so you can’t do the toughest things in the game in your brand new level 50 gear. Most of it is focused on coordination and learning to work together. One of the best examples that I can give you is that we did a PvP playtest recently. I killed somebody who was 7 levels higher than me because my spec was very good against his class. I was playing an archer and he was a mage. I knew what I was doing, and he wasn’t as familiar with what he was doing, so there’s definitely a strong element of skill in the game.
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#16 Nov 30 2010 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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For PvE I think gear should matter a lot vs. content i.e. if you are endgame geared you should be very noticebly tougher over a non-geared equal lvl say 25-50%.

For PvE I do think the same BUT skill / class knowlege should out wiegh this. Basically Steve the woo-hoo I just dinged 50 and have storebought gear should be able to actually kill Bob the ubah raider guy totally kitted out with the best gear but it should not be easy as Bobs going to have alot more HP/AC/etc from his gear. He shouldnt be totally invulnerable becuase he gear put his mitigation so far past steves capacity to actually hurt him.
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