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Crafting: Boring or Fun?Follow

#1 Nov 27 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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As many know, crafting is a major component in many MMOs. However, it's also usually the component that people find incredibly boring. In most MMOs, crafting includes running back and forth between crafting merchant and crafting spot, looking through menus, nothing really exciting. Plus you usually have to do this for about half an hour before you finally get everything you wanted. Nothing fun or exciting about that at all, is there? Some games try to counteract this by making it a minigame, but that soon gets dull and tiring. So, how can MMOs make crafting more interesting?
#2 Nov 27 2010 at 6:49 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly I've always found crafting in any of the MMOs I've tried to be lackluster, either it's put in as an after thought or it has great potential but is left to rot. However I did try freerealms for a bit an their harvesting and crafting minigames were actually fun for me, though I think it's unlikely minigames of that style will be in rift. :)

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#3 Nov 27 2010 at 6:59 PM Rating: Good
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It depends on the potential return on my time spent crafting whether I think it's worth it or not. That and how difficult is it to get the crafting ingredients etc.
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#4 Nov 27 2010 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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AmayaSasaki wrote:
It depends on the potential return on my time spent crafting whether I think it's worth it or not. That and how difficult is it to get the crafting ingredients etc.


exactly which is why in most games i end up just gathering mats and selling them instead of being a crafter.
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#5 Nov 27 2010 at 8:22 PM Rating: Decent
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I've played a couple games where crafting was a lot of fun. Lineage 2 and Aion were 2 I really enjoyed.

I've yet to play a western game that cares about crafting enough to make it a viable path in the game.
#6 Nov 27 2010 at 9:17 PM Rating: Decent
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I always find crafting fun. Hopefully it will be somewhat immersive and not a complete joke like some other MMOs. Don't really think its fun if everyone walks around with a maxed craft. There should always be buyers and sellers.
#7 Nov 28 2010 at 1:03 AM Rating: Good
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Crafting and harvesting was always a nice... mostly relaxing... alternative to a night of gleeful slaughter. ;)
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#8 Nov 28 2010 at 4:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I like crafting, altough I tend to neglect it when leveling. Wich means I get capped and than I wanna do a craft and I have to go to low level places to get the mats. That can be annoying but my own fault.
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#9 Nov 28 2010 at 8:03 AM Rating: Decent
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I found crafting fun when it was required to make spells in the old days. Of course, it was also a neccessity, as I was too poor to buy higher tier spells. =-)
Crafting can be a great money-maker or a nice diversion from combat. It will be neat to see what Trion comes up with.

pj
#10 Nov 28 2010 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Crafting is the most boring thing about MMOs for some people and the most interesting for others. It's all about catering to different playstyles and thus, different players. I tend to level crafting at about half the pace of fighting classes, mainly to provide extra income (as it tends to be far more profitable than simply fighting in most games).
#11 Nov 28 2010 at 11:00 AM Rating: Decent
I enjoy crafting, but I must be in the mindset for it before I sit down to work on it. I like to have each tradeskill class covered if I can so I can make anything I need for any of my toons. I tend to work on my crafting in spurts though, with most of my attention normally focused on adventuring.
#12 Nov 28 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I enjoy having a very full pocketbook in any game I play. If crafting is worth my time and can provide for whatever whims I have, than I don't fully care how it is implemented. I've done all sorts of crafting styles, and unless you care about doing it, or care about the end result nothing will really keep your attention from the things you do enjoy.
#13 Nov 28 2010 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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As long as crafting is atleast semi worth it I'll probably end up doing it when I'm bored and have nothing better to do. Though like I said most of the games I've tried either have crafting as an after sight or have a really amazing system but stop bothering to make it useful.

Maybe Rift will be the exception, and I certainly hope it is. Would be nice to have a game with a decent crafting system.
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#14 Nov 28 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I think its great, as long as it isn't a complete time sink. Its no fun sitting pushing buttons for hours to gain one crafting level, but it adds a great component to the game.

Rift will have a robust crafting system, including recipes that are obtained from raids, there is a bit of info on it in the latest podcast. Based on what I've heard so far, I think it will be fun.
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#15 Nov 28 2010 at 7:54 PM Rating: Good
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Ten Ton Hammer: When can players look forward to hearing more about crafting?

Scott Hartsman: Thematically the idea for crafting is that it needs to be accessible enough that the average person can have fun with it. It needs to have enough of a unique edge that you as a better crafter than me can have a way to express what better means through the items that you make. Thematically that’s what we’re going for and we will be doing a more detailed release on that over the next six weeks or so. At the same time we will start talking about what content exists within the game to support crafting, it is more than just what you can see in the UI. Crafting is important to us.

Ten Ton Hammer: Will crafting be more for the causal player or the hardcore crafter?

Scott Hartsman: It depends, I think there will be enough of a system there supported by enough content to where it’s going to be approachable and fun to a casual crafter, but it will be more fun and more involved to a person who wants to get more into it.
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#16 Nov 29 2010 at 5:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Gremdar wrote:
Ten Ton Hammer: When can players look forward to hearing more about crafting?

Scott Hartsman: Thematically the idea for crafting is that it needs to be accessible enough that the average person can have fun with it. It needs to have enough of a unique edge that you as a better crafter than me can have a way to express what better means through the items that you make. Thematically that’s what we’re going for and we will be doing a more detailed release on that over the next six weeks or so. At the same time we will start talking about what content exists within the game to support crafting, it is more than just what you can see in the UI. Crafting is important to us.

Ten Ton Hammer: Will crafting be more for the causal player or the hardcore crafter?

Scott Hartsman: It depends, I think there will be enough of a system there supported by enough content to where it’s going to be approachable and fun to a casual crafter, but it will be more fun and more involved to a person who wants to get more into it.


This sounds promising. Makes it sound like , gather ingredients, click to create, but with a twist. Hopefully they can pull it off.

Edited, Nov 29th 2010 6:47am by Gaage
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#17 Nov 29 2010 at 5:51 AM Rating: Default
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I was under the impression rift's crafting system was going to be almost a carbon copy of world of warcraft's "add it so it's there" method of crafting.

I'll be very pleased if this is not the case, though I hope they shy away from the awfulness that was EQ2 crafting at the very least.
#18 Nov 30 2010 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Little more crafting info for those interested.

Ten Ton Hammer: How will dropped gear compare to crafted gear?

Drew Clowery: We want the same amount of effort to yield the same quality of reward. So if someone has to go into an area full of level 50 monsters to gather the components needed to craft an item, this item will be comparable to a drop from the same level of creatures. We also have a way of customizing crafted gear, and it's a cool system, but we can't talk about it in detail just yet.
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#19 Nov 30 2010 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
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The biggest use for crafting that I've seen in most games is to generate money. I think that it would be cool if each crafted item was unique. If everything you craft is something you could just buy or loot, then what is the purpose of spending so much time doing it? Give crafters a reason to craft!
#20 Nov 30 2010 at 9:51 PM Rating: Decent
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I personally enjoy crafting it gives me something to do besides doing quest after quest.
#21 Nov 30 2010 at 10:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gremdar wrote:
Little more crafting info for those interested.

Ten Ton Hammer: How will dropped gear compare to crafted gear?

Drew Clowery: We want the same amount of effort to yield the same quality of reward. So if someone has to go into an area full of level 50 monsters to gather the components needed to craft an item, this item will be comparable to a drop from the same level of creatures. We also have a way of customizing crafted gear, and it's a cool system, but we can't talk about it in detail just yet.


Should definitely be interesting to see how it works in practice.
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#22 Nov 30 2010 at 10:23 PM Rating: Good
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It should be interesting to see how close crafting gear is to looted gear
#23 Dec 01 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
10 posts
If it's anything like the crafting in Vanguard it will be rewarding....but you have to want to do it. Leveling up crafting takes dedication to say the least ( or a few well planned double xp weekends =P ). The idea of harder to gain items resulting in a better crafted product is awesome imho. Crafting in any game should be something that is highly useful ie in Vanguard if you want your abilities post lvl 50 you need a crafter to make them.
#24 Dec 01 2010 at 6:22 PM Rating: Decent
11 posts
Boring. But if there are potions that you can craft or items that give your toon a small boost that only players can make... necessary.

If the crafting system isn't a grind and a player can get good returns on time invested, then I'd imagine it would be more rewarding/fun.
#25 Dec 01 2010 at 7:01 PM Rating: Decent
21 posts
i like the concept of crafting, as long as no one can purchase a botting program and get max lvl at it while afk like they do in most games.
#26 Dec 03 2010 at 12:34 AM Rating: Decent
20 posts
In most mmorpg games crafting seems like one big money sink, some people say they can make money off it but rarely are crafted items as good as raid or pvp reward items. So honestly I think it's a waste of time, I do however do the gathering things to sell and make money off people who disagree with me :D
#27 Dec 03 2010 at 7:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Agreed, with the post above me.
Most games make it a drag to craft.
Repeating the same stuff over and over is dull.
I really hope Rift brings something unique when it comes to crafting.
#28 Dec 03 2010 at 10:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I've done crafting in lots of MMOs but Fallen Earth currently has the best that I've seen. I really hope that the crafting in Rift will be as good or even better than FEs.
#29 Dec 04 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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some people just want to be felt useful, hence the shine that comes from crafting. Let it be, people will find their own way of not being invisible.
#30 Dec 04 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Crafting can be both fun and exciting. I can't tell you how many hordes of Albs or Mids I used to run from in the frontiers when venturing out to get high end crafting materials on my Bard for armorsmithing in DAoC. It was a thrill and a challenge, something many other aspects of a MMO can't compare to. Or maybe I'm just a *********. The crafting system in EQ2 was equally harrowing, though it was strictly pve based adrenaline. Is that fayberry by the large group of hostile skeletons worth collecting? It almost always was worth dying for to me and crafting happens to be my favorite thing to do aside from raiding in online games.

One or two things designers could do to improve upon crafting systems would be to make the skill up grind a little less tedious. Yes it's fun to collect the materials, but even I'll admit sitting in one place for hours to get a handful of points can be monotonous and irritating. Also, give people better incentive. I've also always had a fondness for crafting quests, particularly if the reward is a new recipe or some extra special rare materials that cannot be gained any other way.
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#31 Dec 05 2010 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I find crafting to be a lot of fun, as well. Difficulty of obtaining reagents matters a lot; in general, the more difficult the better, as it will generate more of a market for the types of items which are crafted from more difficult reagents.

As someone above said, the potential return of crafting makes or breaks a system. If crafting can make you a lot of money or get you gear and upgrades which are unique and difficult to obtain otherwise, crafting can be popular. Gathering professions in general, if they feel difficult enough and they have a good leveling system, can be very rewarding to use, even if all you're doing is running across terrain to find some more mining spots or flowers to pick :D

If Rift makes crafting difficult and rewarding, and yet doesn't make it completely boring (e.g.: fishing in WoW (sorry if you <3 fishing in WoW, but it's boring)), the crafting system should be successful and fun, and it should stimulate the in-game market. Otherwise, the market may suffer a bit.
#32 Dec 05 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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How can mmos make crafting more interesting?

Crafting needs to have some kind of value behind it. You need to limit it: each player can only do limited main crafts and supporting crafts. You need to expand it: have somewhere between 30-50 or some larger number of main crafts. Each craft will provide something unique, some form of enhancement. If you cook, you can apply food buffs. If you make gems, you can socket additional abilities/attributes. If you have player-owned homes, you can make furniture for aesthetics and function. You can "craft" tattoos which will augment select class abilities. Etc




P.S.
Rift is doing something already that makes crafting interesting.
#33 Dec 05 2010 at 2:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Is it? Now I'm eager to see the crafting system in place. >< I have always loved to craft in MMOs.

In my opinion, crafting, unless it's a gathering skill of some sort, should always require dependency on other trades to create the best items in the game. That was a feature I loved in EQ2. It was unfortunate that they altered the system so each person worked independently. I've always thought of tradeskills as being part of a community of tradesmen, where you work together to make spectacular things that the rest of the people in the game have neither the time nor the patience to bother with. It's a significant amount of time and effort in most games to reach the highest rank/level of a character, why is it normally so easy for people to craft to the highest points? Some of us don't want to just kill mobs all day, every day.

Sorry for my mini rant. Clearly I have a bit of an obsession with crafting. >.>
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#34 Dec 06 2010 at 11:59 PM Rating: Decent
Yeah, I think EvE is the top of what crafting can be in a game. Where crafting is not only necessary for everything, In eve all player ships and weapons and ammo are crafted(well minus the faction stuff anyway), but something that shapes the entire game.

I don't expect any modern fantasy MMO to go the route of an entirely player run economy(although it would be interesting to see someone try). There are a few lessons to be learned.

1. Anytime you can make harvesting high-level materials dangerous, it's a good thing.
In eve the best ORE was null sec, or lawless space, where any player could kill you at anytime, steal all your stuff and would suffer no consequences. Which made fighting over resources not only possible but common. This also keeps things from getting over-inflated like in most MMO's because a smaller portion of the player base has access, due to the crafters needing help from their guilds or from mercs to gather.

2. Make EVERYTHING destroyable. The main problem with modern MMO's is object permanence. An infinite supply of money is always being added to the game from players killing mobs and completing quests. Therefor in order to compensate,everything needs to wear down and break over time, as well as having the capability for it to be destroyed. In most game there are repair costs, however they don't even BEGIN to offset the amount of money flooding into the game on a day-to-day basis.

In eve anytime a player ship is destroyed they have to buy a new one. Everyone has to use ammo crafted by other players. All player owned buildings require fuel which has to be gathered or purchased, and Even the player owned stations are destroyable. I think making Players instead of NPC's repair Armour/weapons would go ALONG way to help a fantasy MMO. In order to fix your +10000 sword of ultimate win, a max level blacksmith should have to use some very expensive materials to do it.


hmmmm.... sorry about the text wall, seems like I had a little ranting to do.

The point of my long-winded post is this. Crafting usually ends up boring because you have thousands of other players making the same 40-50 items as everyone else, Therefor unless those items are constantly being destroyed they have no value, which means crafting has no value, which means it's a giant waste of time.




#35 Dec 09 2010 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
6 posts
I love to craft in the MMOs my hubby and I play in (WoW and Fallen Earth). I've not seen a list of what crafting professions are going to be available in Rift. If someone knows of a good site with this info or can break them down for me I would appreciate it. Thanks.
#36 Dec 09 2010 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
47 posts
Gremdar wrote:

exactly which is why in most games i end up just gathering mats and selling them instead of being a crafter.


Same here =\

For the most part every single MMO has the same stupid crafts systems(except for Final Fantasy.. maybe) and they are all almost identical.... they involve craft windows, MATS with absolutely no creativity put forth on the production (eg. tailor mats = linen this, wool that ect. ect.), and usually involve an absurd amount of currency and countless hours just to max your skill out... not saying it should be easy necessarily, its just SOOOOO boring. the world of MMO's needs a revamped crafting system if you ask me, one with some effort and creativity put into it rather than just slightly tweaking the same system every other MMO uses.

obviously my vote is BORING.
#37 Dec 10 2010 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I found crafting this past weekend to be a straight WoW clone with the names changed a bit ... butchering instead of skinning for example.

What I would like to see is more of a hybrid of complex and simple ... take WoW and EQ2 (those are the 2 I have most experience with) If for example I need to make 150 leathers I am all for the craft 150 and then click go like WoW. But if I want to make a tunic or a sholder item then make it more engaging much like EQ2.
#38 Dec 10 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Decent
37 posts
I enjoy crafting/professions myself. I've done them in every MMO that has offered them. Like in WOW my Priest is a Jewel Crafting and a Inscription where my Druid is Herbalist/Alchemist. Then in Aion, I have a Cleric who is Alchemy and Armor Smithing. I do like that Aion gives you the option to learn all professions on one character but it is incredibly boring and tedious. However, I don't think that crafting/professions should just be easy or the components simple to gather. I think that is part of the joy of making something that someone else won't put in the time or effort to do. :D

I love to make armor or see someone else running around with something I made. :D

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 12:19pm by Celestyn
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#39 Dec 12 2010 at 2:08 AM Rating: Decent
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I didn't get a chance to try crafting in beta 1. I probably won't try it in beta 2. I did a little harvesting, which I'll probably skip this time around. At launch after I level up a ways I may or may not try it. Depends on my needs I guess, but usually I always have guildies that enjoy crafting, and I try to avoid as much as possible.
#40 Dec 12 2010 at 5:14 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't understand the craving for an entire separate game in the crafting world. I think crafting *should* take some time away from leveling, giving an advantage to the casual gamer over the power-leveler in the financial area, but at the same time crafting shouldn't be so difficult that it completely interferes with just plain playing the game. More and more mmos are leaning towards super advanced and complicated crafting systems and I think it's garbage. I think leveling crafting up should never take as long as leveling your character up would, and I'd be much happier to see them limit the crafting experts by making the best recipes hard to find/collect rather than making the whole process ridiculously time-consuming (as found in Aion).
#41 Dec 12 2010 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Isoel wrote:
If it's anything like the crafting in Vanguard it will be rewarding....but you have to want to do it. Leveling up crafting takes dedication to say the least ( or a few well planned double xp weekends =P ). The idea of harder to gain items resulting in a better crafted product is awesome imho. Crafting in any game should be something that is highly useful ie in Vanguard if you want your abilities post lvl 50 you need a crafter to make them.



Yeah, crafting in Vanguard was great... for people who loved crafting. For the rest of us, it was just a tiresome timesink.

I'm on the fence, though. On the one hand I don't like crafting, so liked WoW's system that is so simplistic and banal that I could just do it and get it over with. On the other hand, I recognized how involved and amazing Vanguards crafting was, and even though it wasn't my think, wouldn't want to take that away from players who do enjoy complex crafting.

I wish there was a better compromise, and think there could be. Instead of designing a set system that somehow magically appeals to everyone, they should just have a system that scales.

Basically, let people skill up as a novice craftman, journeyman, and expert. For people who just want easy crafting to make basic items (that would still be good, like bags), they can just follow the novice path that involves straightforward WoW-style crafting where you set it and forget it and it does all the combines. The, it gets more complicated and more time consuming to the point the expert path is more like Vanguard, involving extra ingredients and complications, but with greater rewards. Want a basic 20 slot bag, you can make it easily enough with novice crafting, but if you want a rare, hard to make 25 slot bag, need to be an expert.

Of course, I doubt it would work unless Trion made it work. People would whine and complain, and mmorpgs games seem to have an inability to put their foot down these days and tell us to just suck it up. Instead, they always try to please everyone all the time and just make features and systems as simplistic and boring, which just makes everyone agree, that the system isn't unfair to anyone, but doesn't exactly make anyone happy.

No matter what, though, if they make rare component items required to create high level crafting, despite it having been in pretty much every game ever, watch, people will whine as if Rift just threw a pie in their face.
#42 Dec 12 2010 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
37 posts
username335 wrote:
More and more mmos are leaning towards super advanced and complicated crafting systems and I think it's garbage. I think leveling crafting up should never take as long as leveling your character up would, and I'd be much happier to see them limit the crafting experts by making the best recipes hard to find/collect rather than making the whole process ridiculously time-consuming (as found in Aion).


I think there has to be balance with crafting. You don't want it so easy that everyone in the game does it but want it hard enough that some crafted items are rarities. The pros I liked about Aion Crafting is there were not limitations on how many crafts you could have. Essentially you could craft potions, armor, handi-crafting - anything you wanted. However, being skilled in all those ... well you better have a LOT of time on your hands. I agree with username335 that Aion crafting is very time consuming when you compare to many other MMO's. I am still working on Alchemy and think I'm at 229. Granted you do gain xp while crafting which I think is a great and well implemented idea but unless you have a friend to talk to or watch trade chat bs - it's utterly boring.


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Other PC Games: Dragon Origins, Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, Borderlands
#43 Dec 13 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
5 posts
Ah, crafting... The bane of exciting gameplay...

Mini-games in my opinion are the best way to overcome the boredom of crafting. However these are sometimes too time consuming, when all you really want to do is kill them **** goblins...

However so is tracking a herb halfway across the map. Despite the fact that the product is hardly worth the effort.

There needs to be a balance between creativeness and accessibility of crafting, so you have fun out of it, but it doesn't eat at your hacking time...

The problem I found in MMOs (such as WoW) is that I almost felt pressured to have a profession, everybody else does and these people often get the benefits from it... ( I know it's my own fault) But the thing is it was just SO boring and even both to easy and too infuriating...

To conclude: As with everything you need a balance...
#44 Dec 13 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
10 posts
I think there needs to be some way to make crafting impossible for bots. Thats what would make crafting alot more interesting because you dont have bots ******** with prices then.

Mini games also sound interesting.
#45 Dec 13 2010 at 7:41 PM Rating: Decent
22 posts
I do not like the WoW model of clicking something to craft and its made. I like crafting to be more in depth(See Vanguard, EQ2.) That being said, crafting system doesn't make or break a game for me and I will be totally fine with the crafting model they go for.
#46 Dec 13 2010 at 8:59 PM Rating: Decent
20 posts
Crafting has to have 2 things to be worth it in an MMO I think...

1. Has to not be a long grind just to get a little work done.
2. Has to have value. Why craft things or get to craft things if most of it is worthless in just a few levels or is easily replaced with quest/raid equipment.
#47 Dec 13 2010 at 10:41 PM Rating: Decent
12 posts
i currently play LOTRO and i find crafting an easy time away from hard core raids.. i find it very enjoyable, not to mention all the money it rakes in lol.
#48 Dec 13 2010 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
26 posts
I find crafting pretty fun, no matter what it is... unless it's SUPER boring or counter productive. Like gathering a large amount of materials to get an item that's worthless or something. Though I don't think any game has that... yet.
#49 Dec 14 2010 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
I've honestly always found Crafting to be a bore.. I've tried over the years, in EQ2, to get into crafting but each time I fail lol. I've bene playing since launch and the highest crafter I have is a 58 carpenter. Pretty said right? hehe.. thankfully I have a lot of friends in game that love to craft and if I need something they have always been willing to make it :)
#50 Dec 18 2010 at 7:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Really looking forward to finding out more about the crafting choices and value, from money and usefulness of what's crafted.
#51 Dec 20 2010 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I find in many games that crafting is a huge time sink. I manage to get the same item, a better item or more items in the time spent just regularly playing and raiding.

gathering, leveling crafting itself and crafting the item ends up taking more time and rewards you with a single item for time that could be better spent getting multiple items of equal or better value.

I'll probably try crafting, but not for myself but instead for a way to make money.
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