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Lack of UI mods--good or bad?Follow

#1 Dec 12 2010 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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So far Trion is saying they aren't planning on allowing support for mods, citing the already fully customizable UI and whatnot, and I'm not sure what to think on the issue. If prevention of botters/gold farmers is the reason why, I'm sure these people will all do it anyway... But there's no way Trion could build-in all of the awesome informational features game modders can think of.

I guess I have never been all that big of a mod user, preferring usually to play any game the way it was made even if there is an easier way--part of the fun is the difficulty, right? Maybe this is why I lean toward thinking no mods will be good for the game instead of bad.

Someone convince me otherwise! :P

Edited, Dec 13th 2010 12:26pm by Kaasha
#2 Dec 12 2010 at 8:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I prefer a game that doesn't NEED a ton of mods to be fun or playable.

I'd like a system where mods were allowed, but only if officially sanctioned. Of course, then it adds burden to the devs to approve and possibly even update/support mods that are approved.

I just don't like the sort of deal like in WoW where non tracking classes could suddenly track with mods. To me it's like letting kids eat whatever they want. Sure, it's easier, but even the kids are going to regret it after they eat 2 pounds of candy.

Better the game police us, than let us get upset stomachs.
#3 Dec 12 2010 at 9:09 PM Rating: Decent
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While I still hold the opinion popsicle is a big cry baby, I agree with him here. Mods are by and large for powergamers and or whiney children. If you can't play the game with the tools given, then 1) play better or 2) don't play.
#4 Dec 12 2010 at 10:03 PM Rating: Decent
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When it comes to MMOs i've always been pro cosmetic mods and anti anything that gives a competitive advantage. Basically if you want to change looks for your characters, NPCs, gear, or mobs then its fine with me; but if you speed hack or something equally retarded then you can expect me to be one of the first to report you.
#5 Dec 12 2010 at 10:07 PM Rating: Good
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I don't get where everyone is saying they don't like addons. Not supported at launch does not equal against. From the latest dev chat:

Aethir asks: what is your view on user plugins/addons/mods for rift. could there be support for those later on, and what do you think about addons for mmos in general?
<%chamberlin> We love plugins and mods. Unfortunately this is one of the things that didn’t make our launch window due to time constraints, but we’d very much like to add them post-launch.
<%PeterJu> It is important that we do plugins and mods right, we don’t want mods that would essential “play the game for you”

Link
#6 Dec 13 2010 at 2:08 AM Rating: Decent
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At launch-Very good that they aren't there. People need to learn to play the game first, not have a mod tell them how to. I do think they need a logging feature though.

Long term-Meh, I think its inevitable. Personally, I don't see the need beyond a customizable UI as long as you have logging. Parsers work fine and prevent a lot of stupidity because you need to know how to read.
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#7 Dec 13 2010 at 3:15 AM Rating: Decent
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macro's/binds > mods
#8 Dec 13 2010 at 3:45 AM Rating: Decent
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seacorb wrote:
macro's/binds > mods


Care to elaborate?
#9 Dec 13 2010 at 5:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Quorwyf wrote:
When it comes to MMOs i've always been pro cosmetic mods and anti anything that gives a competitive advantage. Basically if you want to change looks for your characters, NPCs, gear, or mobs then its fine with me; but if you speed hack or something equally retarded then you can expect me to be one of the first to report you.


I guess my general fear of them in rift comes from the fact that the UI is already supposed to be fully customizable.. what other cosmetic mods can there be?

And thanks Tyler I didn't know that was their stance. If I love the game as much as I expect I will, I'll certainly be wary when/if they do allow mods to begin. What if there's some feature I clicked around hard and long for that can be made much simpler with a mod? I would feel like the ornery grandpa who always complains about how easy kids these days have things...
#10 Dec 13 2010 at 8:40 AM Rating: Decent
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username335 wrote:
Quorwyf wrote:
When it comes to MMOs i've always been pro cosmetic mods and anti anything that gives a competitive advantage. Basically if you want to change looks for your characters, NPCs, gear, or mobs then its fine with me; but if you speed hack or something equally retarded then you can expect me to be one of the first to report you.


I guess my general fear of them in rift comes from the fact that the UI is already supposed to be fully customizable.. what other cosmetic mods can there be?

And thanks Tyler I didn't know that was their stance. If I love the game as much as I expect I will, I'll certainly be wary when/if they do allow mods to begin. What if there's some feature I clicked around hard and long for that can be made much simpler with a mod? I would feel like the ornery grandpa who always complains about how easy kids these days have things...


The types I mentioned above. When I think of mods I tend to think beyond UI changing.
#11 Dec 13 2010 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I could see room for being able to add timers and internet windows to browse my Fecebook as I'm playing.

Or what would be cool is some kind of mod that allowed for a good voice chat program like Vent to be integrated with the UI, if that would even be possible.

I'm down for cosmetic stuff like that, that make it so we don't have to alt-tab all the time.... I don't want some of the 'play it for you' mods, though, that killed WoW for me early [pvp especially, knowing exactly how many hp someone had was a great advantage, but also felt like cheating in a game that wasn't designed that way].
#12 Dec 13 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
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When mods are done correctly they can enhance the gameplay without allowing advantages to the less morally disciplined. When they are incorporated poorly they can ruin a game.
#13 Dec 13 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
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It could be a good thing. I know a lot of games that have allowed UI addons, which led to tougher encounters that pretty much required the addons to defeat. (See Advanced Combat Tracker for EQII) ACT was not really a "UI" addon, but more of a combat log parser that would time AoE's for you, and a lot of encounters in EQ2 would be nearly impossible without this tool. So maybe becoming less reliant on addons will result in a more refined gaming experience.
#14 Dec 13 2010 at 2:26 PM Rating: Decent
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No UI mods means you play it how they designed it. With mods, things can get out of hand and easy. Then they have to adjust for the way mods make the game easier, and that makes it harder on those that don't have them. While there is utility in having them, it's a double edged sword for game design.

Personally I prefer to not have mods.
#15 Dec 13 2010 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Tyler1986 wrote:
seacorb wrote:
macro's/binds > mods


Care to elaborate?


Yeah, basically what moe said. If you cant use the tools given then stop sucking or quit the game.

For example; I was in an hardcore raiding guild in wow a while back, we were the 8th US guild to clear Black Temple and we took raiding very seriously so everyone used addons. One night one of our main healers happened to have reformated his computer earlier that day and logged in late for a raid with no mods installed. He was used to using this healermod(can't remember what its called) that made it so easy to play the game I can't imagine how he didn't get bored. Basically we wiped like three times(he was our MH and couldn't even keep the tank alive through the first boss) before we made him install the addon while the whole raid waited because he was ******** about not having it. His noobyness was revealed to everyone... he could only play well if he was sucking on that healer mods tit. And that made me realize you can only know the true skill of a player if there UI is completely vanilla because these mods can really do ridiculous things.

It basically was a giant grid of the raid and it told you who needed what by color code and all he had to do was left click on their name/box and it would automatically choose the most efficient heal to use on them and right click to cleanse them. So while the rest of the raid was actually trying, he was playing whack-a-mole healer and coming off like a superstar when he actually sucked really bad without that particular addon. There ARE a few mods that I think are "ok" though, the ones that only help with raid coordination and communication but even those shouldn't be a necessity.

My point is almost anything a mod can do for you, you can do for yourself with a macro and a key bind. IMO mods like that particular one are for people that are either lazy or just ain't got the skills, or both. And when I say "skills" I mean memorizing key bind locations and knowing the precise time to push them... which isn't a hard task to begin with.

Edited, Dec 13th 2010 4:05pm by seacorb

Edited, Dec 13th 2010 4:47pm by seacorb
#16 Dec 13 2010 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
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As seacorb said it definately shows the lack of skill required when using a mod. I think it dumbs down the game too much. I say play it how its intended.
#17 Dec 13 2010 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow that's a tell-tale story if I've ever heard one. I think I'm poised to become a die-hard anti-modder for any game that I take seriously, apparently, because I feel nausea thinking about the super efficient pride of the guild healer being incompetent when forced to play the game the same way most of the others play it.
#18 Dec 14 2010 at 12:02 AM Rating: Decent
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I used mods more of a community thing anyways. Have contest on who can do the most dps or heal the most. I used them for fun and more of a challenge. Not to make the game easier. If they have'em then they have'em if not oh well.
#19 Dec 14 2010 at 12:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Wow. That is just a mod that should not be allowed. Though I'm wholly against mods in Rift, their UI is customizable as username335 said, so meh. If they do add addon support later, I wouldn't mind, but hopefully it doesn't become into an addon-fest where everyone needs certain addons to do certain things. I'm glad Trion left them out for now.
#20 Dec 14 2010 at 12:52 AM Rating: Decent
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There's a reason WoW raiders get no respect.That's why.
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#21 Dec 14 2010 at 10:22 AM Rating: Decent
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username335 wrote:
when forced to play the game the same way most of the others play it.


was your post sacrastic or serious?? cuz most players in games with addons allowed have them flying out of their buttox!

I'm just using WoW as an example but the most downloaded addon is downloaded from curse on average 40,000 times a day... thats fuggin redonkulus!!!
#22 Dec 14 2010 at 10:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Scale has to be thought of here, WoW has like 16 million subs, that's more than most everything out there using mods.
#23 Dec 14 2010 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
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id love the ability to at least alter the UI directly, if not mod it. if i can drag and rearrange my interface, ill be most pleased. ability to keybind to other mouse buttons and such would also be extra-crispy.

where crispy = good. id have thought that was obvious =P
#24 Dec 14 2010 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Simple MOD's are ok but MODs that play the game for you are not. If you want the game/mod to tell you that you are nuking to much then please play WoW, I want to play RFIT with people that know how to play there character not how to read what a MOD tells them to do ie threat meter.

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 3:40pm by TiberiusNero
#25 Dec 14 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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seacorb wrote:

I'm just using WoW as an example but the most downloaded addon is downloaded from curse on average 40,000 times a day... thats fuggin redonkulus!!!


40k so far today only because it was updated today... Pretty sure most people don't mod because most players are the casual type. Of course that's just a guess but if only 40k people re-download the GearScore mod for wow when it updates, there probably aren't more than a million using it.
#26 Dec 14 2010 at 3:17 PM Rating: Default
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Honestly with everything that said Trion, the only thing that could need Rift is a damage meter. Because I didn't saw any informations about that and this is really important.
#27 Dec 14 2010 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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When I played WoW, I had very few mods (maybe Gatherer and Questhelper), but when I played EQ2, I used Profit which was a full UI mod. The reason I used Profit is because the original UI for EQ2 was so terrible. When they revamped the UI a few months ago, it was actually not bad so I dropped Profit. I think it all depends on how functional the default UI is. If there are no plans at the moment to allow custom UI's, that says one of two things to me: 1) they know the UI has every single bell and whistle you could ever want or 2) they THINK the UI has every single bell and whistle you could want. I would hope that they would either be open to making changes and additions to the UI to satisfy the players or allow third parties to make custom UI's and addons.
#28 Dec 14 2010 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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From what I saw in Beta 1, Trion's descriptions about how good their UI was/is were pretty much accurate.
#29 Dec 14 2010 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally it's not gonna drive my *** to **** and back again, that the game doesn't support plugins, at this time.
Although i must say, been trough several mmo's where you could edit your own layout, what you want as help etc. was really nice. As each person is individual, some people also like to set up a gui their way.

But as i said i can live with it....
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#30 Dec 14 2010 at 5:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Ugh, the damage meter thing again. Check the official forums to see every angle on that.

Needless to say, its not NEEDED. I don't need an in game tool to tell me if I suck or not. If you do, go play wow.
#31 Dec 14 2010 at 6:11 PM Rating: Default
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no mods = bad.

unless they are planning to mod the game upon suggestions.

i dont see the problem with allowing someone like curse to do the mods for them though. saves the company money and allows to have more mods in the game..
#32 Dec 14 2010 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I think WoW had mods because the UI was difficult if not impossible to deal with because it was 98% uncustomizable.

You do not need Add-on's if you can change the UI. And otherwise it will teach people how to actually play the game. And the QQ might win in the end but for now it will encourage better playing.
#33 Dec 14 2010 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
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As long as the UI is customizable enough I don't mind if there aren't any mods. Though, I think they are inhibiting their future potential. WoW implemented a lot of great UI changes that were first done through mods. I have respect for companies that take their customer's ideas seriously. Which isn't to say Trion doesn't, they could just be concerned about keeping everything equal between players.
#34 Dec 14 2010 at 8:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd have to see the final product to be sure. As long as it's fully customizable and made well enough that mods aren't needed then I wouldn't have a problem with it, especially if the built in UI can make gold farming more difficult.
#35 Dec 14 2010 at 8:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I find that people that are below average tend to need more mods to make up for there failings. A game shouldn't need a ton of them. Sure we have all used mods in WOW or some other game and it worked out well, but there are plenty of great games without mods such as Eve.
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#36 Dec 14 2010 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
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If the game needs mods then the UI people didn't do their jobs.
#37 Dec 14 2010 at 11:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm gonna tell you right now the UI is EXTREMELY customizable. Nothing at all is fixed. It looks like wow, but it acts a lot more like EQ2s. And its not finished by any means. I didn't play with it during beta 1 because I was simply too daunted by it to tackle looking at all of the options.

They aren't gonna support mods that play the game for you, so all those mods that tell you what buttons to push when? Yeah, that won't happen. The devs don't want to let you just go ez-mode. They are fully supporting pvp and the community that comes with it. That means for balance's sake on that end, they will never enable that crap.
#38 Dec 15 2010 at 12:21 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm with those saying a properly done UI shouldn't need mods. If they're there, I'll play with them a bit because some can be convenient, but if they aren't there, I won't cry for them one tiny bit. Adapt.
#39 Dec 15 2010 at 12:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I understand that most poeple prefer to have a UI that dosent NEED mods, but lets face it, there are tons of options that many of us are accustomed to through years of MMO play. The people at Trion are doing a great job, but do they have the resources to really put out a UI that dosent need to be modded. And if they do, wouldn't you rather see them using their efforts elsewhere... like content?
#40 Dec 15 2010 at 12:52 AM Rating: Decent
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SluiceGoose wrote:
I understand that most poeple prefer to have a UI that dosent NEED mods, but lets face it, there are tons of options that many of us are accustomed to through years of MMO play. The people at Trion are doing a great job, but do they have the resources to really put out a UI that dosent need to be modded. And if they do, wouldn't you rather see them using their efforts elsewhere... like content?


Uh, only wow players are "accustomed" to mods.

I don't consider a UI overhaul like profit or fetish in eq2 a mod. They don't really bring any features that weren't already in the default UI, they just reskin and allow you to reclaim screen space.

But yes, that is my biggest argument against anyone that says "I want a damage meter!". Don't waste the devs time on stupid crap. The game has bigger problems than your whining about wanting the game to play itself for you.
#41 Dec 15 2010 at 6:36 AM Rating: Good
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Personally I support a no-mod game. For the people who want a DPS or threat meter, as long as they support robust combat logging it will be easy enough for someone to create a combat parser that works in real time outside of the Rift client (i.e., ACT for EQ2).

While I do think mods/addons can be incredibly useful and creative they can also cause their share of problems. I have seen numerous times when addons were behind a performance problem in the client (causing lag or even crashes in the client). Also you can have problems when addons conflict with each other, and it can start to get really ugly when they depend on each other. That's not even counting the perfectly functioning addons which trivialize content or allow for in-game botting functions.

Finally, my real problem with AddOns is I can think of numerous days I spent playing around with my AddOn setups in WoW and RoM rather than actually playing the game. I'd rather not be playing the game of "Tweak the AddOns" any more...

That said, I am hoping for a highly customizable interface that supports skinning. So somewhere near the customization level of LoTRO or EQ2.
#42 Dec 15 2010 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
I'm perfectly fine with a no UI addon setup. I generally prefer to use the once developed with the game as it tends to be more artfully designed. I am, however, "the metermaid" when it comes to raiding. I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I didn't have some sort of damage parse.
#43 Dec 15 2010 at 10:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Uh, focus on doing your job and not worrying about everyone else?
#44 Dec 15 2010 at 10:23 AM Rating: Decent
Well when a good parse program is available to me the stats it produces often helps me to refine my spell rotation. Without a parse/damage meter often you would be without the proper records to determine the most effective use of your available abilities.

Edited, Dec 15th 2010 11:24am by ThorgrimGrudgebearer
#45 Dec 15 2010 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, in the case of rift right now, its pretty easy since the GCD dominates everything. Just need to do simple math.
#46 Dec 15 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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A good parser is better than a simple dps display mod any day.

The reason I didn't understand all this serious mod hate is I don't play WoW, just EQ2. There's no mods in EQ2 that do any work for you. The exception is click to cast raid and group windows, so you can do things like cure or heal someone without have to switch your target to them and back to MT or whomever.

Also, EQ2 has a hate meter in the default UI, which is very helpful. The other big "mod" for eq2 is a map mod named EQ2Map, it's just a map with a POI database that users submit POI's like quest updates and named mobs to. So besides EQ2Map and click to cast raid windows, every "mod" for eq2 is actually a reskin, not really added functionality but changes the look.

It really gives some perspective on the MASSIVE debate and varying opinions on the official forums (over 100 pages). I can see where many WoW players see mods as dumbing down the game, and are against them. But EQ2 players see them as added functionality and are for them. Really sheds some light, because the mods I've had experience with don't hurt the game at all.

I just support parse-able chat logs, and a hate meter would be nice; not required, but nice.
#47 Jan 03 2011 at 5:48 AM Rating: Decent
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mods r not needed while testing or learning the game at the start,it is pretty doable without atm. But they have to build a great custumizable system for mods to be not needed for further lvls of game play.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 6:49am by purplelizard
#48 Jan 03 2011 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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Reading through this thread I'm not sure where some folks have come across the notion that UI mods are designed or even capable of playing the game for you. Generally addons that come close to that get broken by the developer. It's not in their best interest to allow mods that automate any kind of combat process. Most UI mods simply adjust UI layout, as others have mentioned, and or gather information already provided by the game and present it in different ways. I would hate to see people pooh-pooh the notion of UI mods simply because they heard of one or two that created minor issues in other games. Depending on the type of mod, some of them have the potential to be misused by idiots but the benefit is that when you find someone who is abusing mods and being a twerp, at least the addon has helped to expose them for their twerpiness and saved you some time.

It sounds like the developers have a favorable stance on UI mods and as such they may make it into the game sometime after launch. And then it will take some time before folks get down to the business of making new mods that are the kinds of things anyone would want to use on a regular basis. It certainly can't hurt the game.
#49 Jan 03 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm in full support of Add-Ons that don't change gameplay or give anyone any sort of advantage. Things like custom UI's are in my book sometimes very beneficial. I would think of macro's as an add-on to some degree. Also I think that if you open up the dev. book to a lot of people, you get some pretty interesting things designed.

How about this add-on: selling all your CRAP with one button, god is that a nice feature that'd been implemented in other games. and No it doesn't give anybody an advantage over someone else.
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#50 Feb 28 2011 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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I disagree with the general anti-mod sentiments on this thread.

My only experience of modded UIs is of EQ2 where, as another player pointed out, customisations like EQ2 Map (less necessary with Rifts map system, though some of its flexibility would be welcome), Fetish and Profit have no impact on actually playing the game (i.e. they look nice and offer visual flexibility but don't do game jobs for you). Instead, they've become integral to the community and perform a useful function in bringing people together.

I agree wholeheartedly with those who point out mods in other games that give non-trackers tracking etc. That is just nuts. However, it is possible to have a different look, without compromising the integrity of the game engine.

That's the balance I would like to see.

Ker

Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
#51 Feb 28 2011 at 12:24 PM Rating: Default
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Mods, for the most part, are for customization.

If you are a car nut, you wouldn't be content to drive the car exactly as it came from the manufacturer. EVEN if they added a bunch of options (that you love!) that other manufactures don't give you.

What would be wrong with you wanting to add some customization to a vehicle to make it exactly perfect for you as well as fun and aesthetically pleasing. After all, it is yours!

Personally I love the UI options that Rift offers, there are a few other things I'd like to see, add, or remove to make it perfect for me and my play style.

Trion seems very customer service oriented, they appear to take great strides in giving the gamer the best experience possible. Allowing mods or ad ons would further appease those wishing to have them. Those who do not want them, don't get them, and don't concern yourself with those who do.

That is all.

=)
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