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Lack of UI mods--good or bad?Follow

#102 Apr 15 2011 at 8:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dear God, where do I begin...

delindsay90210 wrote:
ALL addons without any question limit your gameplay, why, because it makes the game easier than it was meant to be.


The first thing I want perfectly clear, is that sweeping generalizations will almost always undermine any otherwise legitimate argument you're trying to make.

  • An addon that opens all my mail for me and calculates amount of money and returned items does not limit my gameplay
  • An addon that puts my game window in a letterbox to increase usable space does not limit my gameplay
  • An addon that lets me manipulate the way my minimap looks so that it flows better with my UI does not limit my gameplay
  • An addon that displays my target's cast bar at a size that can be read by a Human does not limit my gameplay
  • An addon that displays my buffs and dispellable debuffs on raid members and puts my 5-man party in a raid frame does not limit my gameplay


All of these things enhance my gameplay by allowing me to either correct a design flaw in the UI, or just tweak the design of the UI so that it's more suitable to my personal tastes.

delindsay90210 wrote:

I am a healer at heart and miss Healbot, but look folks there are Macros and Keybinds in the game for a reason, stop being lazy and learn to use those features. Addons just slow down the game, causing undo stress on the server load and therefore cause the game to be less appealing.


I'm a healer at heart too, and I too miss Healbot, I loved that thing it was awesome.

I know how to use macros and keybinds, but calling me lazy because I want Healbot back only serves to invalidate the rest of what you're saying here. Insults do not serve to bolster your position, they only serve to weaken it.

Healbot for me was:
  • My party and raid unit frames
  • An easily-configurable click casting interface for anything I might want to cast on an ally
  • A way to display debuffs on party and raid members based on a priority system so that the important information was brought to the forefront


Frankly, macros and keybinds can't do those things the way I want them done. This doesn't make me lazy, it just means I have a preference for the way I want my information displayed and the way I want to interact with it.

Also you're limited to 25 macros, which is occasionally not enough especially if you're trying to write mouseover macros for everything

delindsay90210 wrote:

Also, as for addons like Boss Mods, Recount and Gear Score, they just lead to lazy ***holes in raid that can't be bothered to actually look at the floor to see if fire is burning their face off, promotes god complex style of playing "I'm #1 DPS blah blah blah", and TBH Gear Score ruined WoW entirely, absolutely the worst addon in it's history, the RL wouldn't even bother to inspect your gear, just say min gear score of xxxx to join, even though many could easily out dps/heal those with higher gear scores.


Wild generalizations are wild.

Let's go point by point:

Boss Mods are, at their core, a series of timers with alerts for when those timers reach certain points. There's nothing they do that can't be done without them, but how badly do YOU want to count down 12 seconds from when the boss used Massively Painful Ability X while at the same time maintaining a separate 13 second countdown for Massively Painful Ability Y? Didn't think so.

Yeah, DBM and others like it have alerts for when you're standing in the death, but frankly they're usually too late to make you avoid taking damage from those effects and so ultimately this function is not more useful than simply paying attention. The conceit that boss mods play the game for you is ridiculous and ignorant and only serves to weaken your case because you don't have your facts straight.

Recount is nothing more than a calculator that reads your combat log. Not only is this already IN Rift, but Trion implemented a specific function in game to make it work. Point moot, moving on.

Gearscore. Gearscore didn't actually ruin anything, it didn't do anything except some basic weighted math.

Now what people eventually did with that math is unfortunate, but consider for a moment the following scenario:

You're a raid leader who needs to pick up some randoms to fill spots in a raid. You need a DPS and maybe a healer, so the call goes out: LFM DPS/Heals 20m FUBAR

You get the following responses:
Mage A: I'll dps that
Mage B: Yo, I'll dps

Now you don't know either of these guys, you've never heard of their guilds and nobody in your raid does either. So which do you choose? Well, all else being equal in this case, you choose the one with better gear because it PROBABLY indicates better progression and perhaps knowledge of their class. So now we turn to our old friend Gearscore. Instead of having to sit here and interrogate these guys about what gear they're wearing, you can ask them for a simple number and the one that's higher has better gear. Their individual capabilities are obviously not being expressed by this number, but there's no way for you to KNOW their individual capabilities so it's not a factor in your decision making process because it's information you can't possibly have.

You go with the guy that has better gear, because it's the only thing you have to go on. If you knew one of these guys already you'd go with the guy you knew (assuming it was a positive experience last time) and his gear wouldn't matter because you already know he's good.

Understand? You can't put the genie back in the bottle and you can't blame the tools because people misuse them sometimes.
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#103 Apr 15 2011 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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I'm pretty sure one of the main points he wanted to make was that the macro functionality people like about add-ons are already available in game. If there's a hard limit to the number of macros in game for your character, it's also not unreasonable to entertain the thought that Trion may force add-ons to follow this limit as well. The challenge then would be to find the add-on that condenses macros the most efficiently.

About Gearscore, the hate people have for Gearscore is more around the fact that the whole reason for the creation of the tool--gear checking--is pretty offensive to them. I've seen people privately complain before that just because someone's in shiny gear doesn't tell you the more important facts, like whether the player even understands game concepts like LOS, proximity aggro and standing in AE range. I KNOW people have made comments like "how could someone so geared be so (insert expletives of choice) STUPID?" before. :) I'm sure everyone's quite familiar with the complaints however. I personally don't care either way -- weighted scores is a good way to see if my character is being more effective at what he does.
#104 Apr 15 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
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Now that I have the parser. I don't need addons. I so very much enjoy the fact this game is vanilla. I'm mixed on what I feel as if addons should or shouldnt be allowed, believe me I'd kill for an AH addon and a mailbox addon. I put up at least 100 auctions a night and my god it painfully slow remove things from my mailbox.

But for the most part I can live without them. Like I said, it's been quite the refresher to not have to rely on addons.
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#105 Apr 15 2011 at 12:39 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I'm pretty sure one of the main points he wanted to make was that the macro functionality people like about add-ons are already available in game.


This

Quote:
About Gearscore, the hate people have for Gearscore is more around the fact that the whole reason for the creation of the tool--gear checking--is pretty offensive to them


The hate I had for that addon wasn't that people could check my gear it was that RL's because lazy and DIDN'T check gear by physically inspecting you to make sure you even knew what enchants to put on your DPS Mage for example. Gear Score could be cheated by wearing PvP gear, the wrong gear entire;y, etc, where as the way it was always done prior was the RL would inspect each and every single person.

Quote:
I know how to use macros and keybinds, but calling me lazy because I want Healbot back only serves to invalidate the rest of what you're saying here. Insults do not serve to bolster your position, they only serve to weaken it.


I didn't insult anyone I stated people should stop being lazy and use the tools Trion provides. You wanting Healbot in Rift does not mean I'm saying YOU are lazy, but it does mean you ARE lazy because you don't want to spend the time to create the macros that Healbot did for you, like I did (mostly). As for the raid/party frame comment, I don't ahve a valid arguement because that's partly why I used it also and Trion's raid frames are very plain and often difficult to see debuffs/DoT's etc.

Addons for Mail, AH, etc WILL slow the game down (even if only slightly) although would be welcome by probably everyone, so my point is still valid about why I think addons shouldn't be in game (added stress on servers). I agree though getting mail one at a time is annoying.

DBM breeds lazy raiders, simple as that. The game itself warns you of impending ouch ability due to the fact it is often a casted one. It is PAINFULLY obvious to see pretty pretty lights on the ground that don't give you a buff. And the list goes on. As I said in my post I both loved and hated addons in WoW, I ran probably 12/13 of them and generally liked/loved what they did, but at the same time didn't like the drain on server recources.

My over all point was that people should actually learn to play the game as it was intended by the devs and not just take the easy way out using addons that were created by someone ELSE'S hard work that you probably could have done yourself (for the most part)...had you not been lazy.
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#106 Apr 15 2011 at 12:55 PM Rating: Default
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Also,


Quote:
Also you're limited to 25 macros, which is occasionally not enough especially if you're trying to write mouseover macros for everything


You know you can chain macros together right? You can have ONE Macro that using keybinds can effectively cast a dozen different spells depending on whether it's a mousover, targetoftarget, @focus, @self, [ctrl], [alt], the list goes on...

http://rift.zam.com/wiki/Macros_(Rift) There is a link to Zam's own page that I personally used in my research to learn how to use Trion's in game tools instead of having to rely on addons and thus enhancing your own game play ;)


Edited, Apr 15th 2011 3:35pm by delindsay90210
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DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#107 Apr 15 2011 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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delindsay90210 wrote:

Quote:
About Gearscore, the hate people have for Gearscore is more around the fact that the whole reason for the creation of the tool--gear checking--is pretty offensive to them


The hate I had for that addon wasn't that people could check my gear it was that RL's because lazy and DIDN'T check gear by physically inspecting you to make sure you even knew what enchants to put on your DPS Mage for example. Gear Score could be cheated by wearing PvP gear, the wrong gear entire;y, etc, where as the way it was always done prior was the RL would inspect each and every single person.


I stand corrected in your case then. The raid leaders I have seen in WoW, EQ2 and EQ didn't waste a lot of time on gear checks being the primary measuring tool because the more important factor to them was if you could follow directions. Gear can always be replaced/upgraded. The capability to swallow your ego and not argue with the raid leader (publically or privately) and disrupting the raid is a different story. The EQ group even put together a non-guild raiding alliance where they didn't care what guild tags you had, as long as you demonstrated you had a brain, could follow directions, and could show up after most regular raiding hours for the server. It worked really well and looks like it is still alive and kicking for 9+ years.
#108 Apr 15 2011 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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The raid leaders I have seen in WoW, EQ2 and EQ didn't waste a lot of time on gear checks being the primary measuring tool because the more important factor to them was if you could follow directions.


Then either you were on lucky Realms or I was on a very bad one. On my Realm they didn't care if you were good, if your "Gear Score" wasn't what they wanted they didn't invite you, period. That's what I meant by RL's becoming lazy, they only looked at your gear score and nothing else, didn't matter if it was all PvP gear or a Hunter wearing Cloth to get his epeen up, etc. When you had to physically check people, you got a good sense of how well they knew their class at least. If a Hunter stacked Int gems/chants, then they would be laughed at (since you could see it on their gear if you bothered to look) but most didn't look after the gear score addon was created.

The other side of the coin for that addon was those complete morons with around 6k gear score (pre Cata) doing raids and couldn't push more than maybe 3k DPS. But then they'd yell at you for telling them how to play because "don't tell me how to play my class I have a 6k gs" kinda thing. Having a high gear score means nothing if you cannot play your class or listen to the RL. Having an addon that states one's gear score invites abuses and criticism that doesn't need to be in the game, just my thoughts.
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My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#109 Apr 15 2011 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
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Aw, all of you and your gearscore hatred.

All the oldies probably remember something other than gearscore. This magical website was called be.imba.hu.

Good times I tell ya! Good times!
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#110 Apr 16 2011 at 10:40 PM Rating: Good
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man im really glad i quit wow when i did. it sounds, surprisingly, even *************** now.
#111 Apr 17 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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I quit near the end of wrath after like 8 years of ICC. It was getting to the point that I was doing gkdp pug runs and going 7/12 heroic. So I came back for cata and realized it was a complete and total **** show let down and ventured my way over to rift.

Btw, who wants to buy a wow account?
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#112 Apr 18 2011 at 8:57 AM Rating: Good
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World of Warcraft has its charm, but it's degenerating fast these days.

People are just idiots at life, breathing and pressing the right buttons. As much as I hate DPS meters, they do have their uses, especially when it comes to finding failure. When two Hunters in epics did less DPS (and damage) than the tank in a WoW heroic, I had to point out that we might lack the necessary damage output to defeat all the bosses. When that caused no improvement or reaction from either of them, I told them how to improve their rotations (Recount shows different attacks and such, for those unfamiliar with DPS meters in general).

In the end, I bailed because boss fights that normally take 1-2 minutes were taking 4-6 minutes. Doesn't sound like much, but as a healer, it's the difference between doing fine and being out of mana and frantically pressing buttons in the hopes that you'll pull through. It's unnecessary stress caused by two people being unwilling or unable to learn.

So Recount I miss, after all, but GearScore can go jump in a lake of fire.
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#113 May 08 2011 at 11:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I had very mixed feelings about this coming from WOW and really having a multitude of addons for pretty much every game aspect. I tried a lot of them but only kept using a few - but really using them. And coding some stuff for myself, not necessarily because I couldn't find what I wanted, but just for the fun of it - yes, I'm a codie.

Leaving the discussion about the pros and cons of DPS meters aside, there ARE some UI features that could use a tweak or two in Rift (only normal for a new title AFAIAC). For example, I really don’t like having to type my alt’s name and a mail topic every time I want to send stuff to my craft alt.

For this reason, I started experimenting with using a mobile phone as an addon display for Rift. This means no cluttering of the game display and no loss of the process focus as you would have with external overlays in windowed mode.

The first week, the focus was on simple tweaks (like auto-filling a mail-to name and subject). This week, at the request of many fellow guildies, I added functions to monitor the combat log file and send the log entries to my smartphone for parsing, and voila, a basic DPS meter that doesn't need Alt-Tabbing or dual display.

I'm going to open this up to anyone who's interested, meanwhile, here's a blog posts about the meter and a video on how the principle works.





Edited, May 9th 2011 1:45am by Laurilin
#114 May 10 2011 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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I fall strongly into the anti-GS camp.

Most addons are unnecessary and some of the healing ones definitely went beyond what was good for the game. To their credit Blizzard did over the years try to exclude the game-breakers and build in the good ones.

I used Recount and Omen and DBM because they helped.

One thing about DBM which it is hard to ascribe as cause or effect. Once upon a time the RL would brief the raid on an encounter. Gradually this seemed to fall into reliance on people following the addon. As a latecomer to most WoW raids I always found myself expected to know the fight and nobody ever willing to explain it. DBM did help me not to look a complete idiot (and yes I watched the videos but it doesn't always help to know three different ways to do a fight - especially when your RL has invented No. 4)

However GS was not - as several people have pointed out - wrong of itself. It was the effect it had on the community.

The addons I miss in Rift are the simple ones that made life easier without affecting gameplay at all. Things like mail addressing. But they are not gamebreakers and I played WoW for a long time before those addons were available. I expect Trion will get around to building in some functionality sooner or later and I can wait.

The one that would help enormously is some incarnation of Altoholic. The collections are a nightmare to track and I dread to think how much I spend mailing swaps to alts who have already got them. It is one thing that may actually make me create my own guild when guild banks arrive just to have a central repository that all my alts can look in. The old EQ idea of a bank section shared over the account was a very good one and I don't know why it has not surfaced in other games.



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#115 Jun 03 2011 at 2:56 PM Rating: Default
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you talk big about lack of skill, but come back when you can heal that same raid sans mods. dpsing without mods is nothing but full on raid healing is a whole nother story
#116 Jun 03 2011 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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gromlek wrote:
you talk big about lack of skill, but come back when you can heal that same raid sans mods. dpsing without mods is nothing but full on raid healing is a whole nother story


I used to heal raids in EQ with no mods.

If you think addons are necessary to heal a raid then you're at the wrong end of a learning curve.

Yes they make it easier - I'm not arguing that - but they are not necessary
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#117 Jun 05 2011 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Cobra101 wrote:
I used to heal raids in EQ with no mods.

If you think addons are necessary to heal a raid then you're at the wrong end of a learning curve.

Yes they make it easier - I'm not arguing that - but they are not necessary


I used to pull a five-song twist on my raiding bard while nursing a baby, with no mods at all. Never liked using mods, I want to spend my time playing, not dinking with my UI.

On the other hand, you want 'em? Go for it, no skin off my nose.
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#118 Jun 06 2011 at 9:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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gromlek wrote:
you talk big about lack of skill, but come back when you can heal that same raid sans mods. dpsing without mods is nothing but full on raid healing is a whole nother story


Sounds like you're just bad, sorry.
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#119 Jun 06 2011 at 11:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Clicking a frame to target it, then pressing your heal's keybind is not much different from hovering over a frame for a mouseover macro, then pressing your heal's keybind. Like, a split second different. But split seconds eventually add up to whole ones, and I can recall some really twitchy fights where if I had to heal a 25 man raid by targeting-then-healing I'd have lost a few. So I don't need a mod per se (I always found click-casting to be way slower, plus it impedes movement), but I do need macros.

But I'm also happy to admit that's a limitation of my reflexes, not the game itself. And I don't necessarily associate having reflexes that reflect my, erm, state of maturity, with being "bad." Bad people don't know their classes and/or don't try. If I know what to do, but physically need an extra split second to do it, I find no shame in using a macro or a mod to close that gap.
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