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question on SoulsFollow

#1 Jan 11 2011 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
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when you get the Pvp soul do you have to give up one of your soul for this? is so how do you all fell about this?
#2 Jan 11 2011 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Perhaps someone knows more than I on the subject, but I assume the answer is yes you do have to take a pvp soul in place of one of your other souls.

This is probably the aspect of Rift that has me the most concerned. I'll wait to see how it plays out, but in my opinion pvp souls are a bad idea. As someone who plans to pvp pretty extensively, I'd like to be able to viably play a wide variety of builds and play against a wide variety of builds. From what I've seen the bonuses in the pvp soul are good for pvp, and so most people who pvp will have the soul and invest in it. Everyone having the same soul and a fair amount of points spent in it is very bad, and removes a lot of choice and uniqueness from players.

Souls should focus on how a player achieves something, not what they achieve. Otherwise it becomes a case of players having many hats to choose from, but everyone wearing the same hat to the same occasion.
#3 Jan 11 2011 at 6:57 PM Rating: Good
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When you get your PvP soul it's just added as another Soul you can equip. So at the moment you can get 9 Souls per calling (8 regular souls + 1 PvP soul). So in this way you don't have to give up any soul to get your PvP soul.

Now, you can only have 3 souls equipped in any given role. So if you want to actually equip your PvP soul then you have to "give up" one of your slots to equip it. Then again, to equip any soul you need to give up one of your slots. So I don't think this is what you meant :)
#4 Jan 11 2011 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
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An additional note about the PvP soul. Assuming they are similar to the Rogue one (the only one I really looked at) they are going to provide some good and interesting tools for PvP, but not sure how many people are going to actually invest many points into them. As a third (0 point) soul, sure, they will be very valuable, which means there might be a lot less 0 point pets running around. Will it be worth it for people to actually invest a reasonable number of points into them beyond that, not sure. I'm planning on having fun finding out though :)
#5 Jan 11 2011 at 7:22 PM Rating: Decent
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yes rlunt68,
that is what i am talking about. i have not seen the soul trees yet and i know you can change your roll in seconds and you get 4 rolls this is a great thing. but with having just one pvp pre-calling do you think that that will start to make ppl start haven the same builds? i really like the way the build are now a lot of different way to play. i would like to see them keep the three soul your start off with then as you pvp you can buy them with favor to get a new points to move up your soul tree. i know ppl are going to say that is not right they well be stronger then me but that is like going to gym and say that guy can bench over 300lbs way cant i?
#6 Jan 11 2011 at 7:55 PM Rating: Good
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I did most of my playing in PvP as a Rogue, so things might be different for other callings.

Will there be preferential builds? Definitely. My worst case scenario, which does worry me a bit, is that there will be some "ultimate" combo which everyone gravitates toward for each Calling. Given what I was seeing in PvP this past weekend I'm at least hopeful that won't be the case, although we'll have to wait until we see top level chars before we see for sure.

I'm sure the PvP soul will be a popular one to slot, just like the Saboteur soul was popular to slot as a Rogue. I saw a lot of Marksmen and Rangers kicking out a lot of DPS, which is a build I tried for a while, but honestly I had more fun playing as a Bard and buffing+healing our raid. I also read about some fairly sick combos Riftstalkers were able to pull off with their teleport + stuns.

So I'm worried that uber builds will eventually be developed, but things felt fairly healthy for now, and we can only wait to see what the devs do when the first uber/game-breaking build is developed...

Note: This holds true for all builds, not just PvP builds. I'm sure there will be some "better" Tanking builds, or Healing builds, or just general DPS builds. The healthier the system, the more viable builds that will be available. Worst case is that everyone from the same calling has the identical set of 4 roles slotted...
#7 Jan 11 2011 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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well i just went to youtube and look at the tree and i am starting to like it. it well not make you a god it look to help with pvp and with the roll when you are pveing you can play a different roll. i am starting to see what the devs are trying to do. the pvp tree takes 20 points to max out the tree. well i bet you can put more but there is no more roots after 20 points. there is just a lot of new thing that they are trying and so far i am liking it.
#8 Jan 11 2011 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
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rlunt68 wrote:
So I'm worried that uber builds will eventually be developed, but things felt fairly healthy for now, and we can only wait to see what the devs do when the first uber/game-breaking build is developed...

While it's possible for a game-breaking build to slip through, it's more than likely that an above average build becomes flavor of the month.

After a few months players will complain about some build being the absolute best at something. It's going to happen regardless of how well balanced the game is, so be ready for it.
#9 Jan 12 2011 at 12:35 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm sure someone will have a role setup just for PvP and invest some significant points in the PVP soul. I mean that role is doesn't effect your other 3 roles. You figure I play cleric so I will have pure healer role, tank role, DPS role, and PVP role. This is also only my experience up to Beta 4 with level 27.

My worries as with many games when an ultimate build or an overpowering build is done, most developers look to nerf a class. It will be kind of difficult to do with rift because with the different builds what you do to one role will significantly effect someones build that doesn't have the ultimate build. I think I put that correctly.

I am interested in the Templar for cleric from the little I can see in the youtube video. Looks worth spending some points in there for PVP.
#10 Jan 19 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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The PvP Soul Tree's are awesome. They definitely help out with PvP situations, but... Some people may not want it, and just go all out regular souls for more damage/abilities.

The catch with the PvP Souls, is that there are a lot of abilities inside of the tree, that can be duplicates of what you have in your normal soul tree. So, in effect, you get 2 root/snare removals instead of having only one (Clerics for example). It's just really, personal preference, and what you are planning to do as far as what role you will be playing with your character.
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#11 Jan 19 2011 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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It doesn't really matter what is in the PvP souls. There is going to be one main build for each calling that all PvPers use, and very little variation in builds.

My guess is that skill and teamwork will be the deciding factors in PvP success, not your choice of build.
#12 Jan 20 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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There was an interesting podcast from MMO Reporter recently that featured a lengthy interview with Hal Hanlin of Trion Worlds (Scroll down to "Discussion: Interview with Hal Hanlin from Trion Worlds" for link to the podcast.) Lots of great discussion about the game and Hal goes into the concern of OP builds, etc. (The interview with Hal starts at around the 37 minute mark of the podcast.)

My personal thought on the matter is that everyone always gets themselves worked up over the chance of OP builds materializing and it's not really worth the energy. We all know by now that "balance" in a PvP setting is a myth. It's the pot of gold at the end of the PvP rainbow that we demand developers try to find and it'll never happen. I expect that I'll do some PvP from time to time via warfronts but you have to know going in that there are going to be people who faceroll you based on their scissors build on your paper build, and there are going to be people who flatten you with skill regardless of their build or yours. That's the PvP game.
#13 Jan 20 2011 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
We all know by now that "balance" in a PvP setting is a myth.

Well, no more so than in a PvE setting.
#14 Jan 20 2011 at 9:09 PM Rating: Decent
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all good they are going to give more points for the pvp souls. so you can get points to put in your pvp soul build if you pvp that is. it kind of like Daoc i really like this :P.
#15 Jan 21 2011 at 3:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
We all know by now that "balance" in a PvP setting is a myth.

Well, no more so than in a PvE setting.


It's easier to tune PvE balance because the devs can better control what's going on. That's not to say that it will ever be perfectly balanced, but there's just something about the protracted rage over PvP balance that starts to get old after a while. It's the modern day incarnation of rock-paper-scissors with a twist. You can be a big rock, or you can be a rock with a little pair of scissors, or you can be a smaller rock with slightly bigger scissors, or you can be a wee little rock with wee little scissors and confetti. Pure paper is still going to **** you up. But everyone insists they should be boulder-lawnmower-plywood, and if they're not, PvP is broken and imbalanced and nerf the other guy and buff me.
#16 Jan 21 2011 at 6:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
It's easier to tune PvE balance because the devs can better control what's going on.

I disagree. The closest truth to that is that often developers focus on PvE over pvp, and therefore it ends up being an afterthought (Lotro is a prime example).
Aurelius wrote:
That's not to say that it will ever be perfectly balanced, but there's just something about the protracted rage over PvP balance that starts to get old after a while.

I think that has much to do with fighting other players. It's hard to get mad at an AI boss killing you. Players take being beaten by computers much better than they do being beaten by other players, even if the situations are equally unbalanced or challenging. It's ego.
Aurelius wrote:
It's the modern day incarnation of rock-paper-scissors with a twist.

Maybe bad pvp systems, but it doesn't have to be that way. Sure a lot of developers fail at pvp balance, but a lot of dvelopers fail at making games period. The vast majority of mmmorpgs are quite awful, even the pve.
#17 Jan 29 2011 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
It's easier to tune PvE balance because the devs can better control what's going on.

I disagree. The closest truth to that is that often developers focus on PvE over pvp, and therefore it ends up being an afterthought (Lotro is a prime example).
Aurelius wrote:
That's not to say that it will ever be perfectly balanced, but there's just something about the protracted rage over PvP balance that starts to get old after a while.

I think that has much to do with fighting other players. It's hard to get mad at an AI boss killing you. Players take being beaten by computers much better than they do being beaten by other players, even if the situations are equally unbalanced or challenging. It's ego.
Aurelius wrote:
It's the modern day incarnation of rock-paper-scissors with a twist.

Maybe bad pvp systems, but it doesn't have to be that way. Sure a lot of developers fail at pvp balance, but a lot of dvelopers fail at making games period. The vast majority of mmmorpgs are quite awful, even the pve.


Let's not complicate it. There's no such thing as balanced PvP in modern MMOs like WoW and Rift and any other MMO that allows multiple classes with multiple builds/class. There are too many variables. PvE is easier to balance than PvP because there are far fewer variables to contend with. If someone wants truly balanced PvP, an MMO is the wrong place to look for it.
#18 Jan 29 2011 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
PvE is easier to balance than PvP because there are far fewer variables to contend with.

I still disagree, but I'm not going to sidetrack the thread into a long discussion about it.
#19 Jan 31 2011 at 10:24 AM Rating: Decent
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The pvp soul is a pretty good idea when it comes down to it..These are not made to be you main spec witch is interesting because im sure some people will spec pretty deep to get the real good stuff..but then your taking allot away from you base spec..The pvp souls if you read the talents improve most of your other specs overall and give you some basic survivability so if you hollow out your other trees then this soul wont do to much for you...although im sure every pvper will have to dabble a bit in them

and not to fuel an argument or anything neither pvp or pve is harder to balance they both take lots of work and programming. The reason we see pve balance out faster is because of a script.. A raid boss dose the same thing over and over so it comes down to tweeking numbers to make this more or less challenging for the players doing the raid. As where pvp there is no script they can not predict witch talents will be used (this is where overpowered ness comes into play). A perfect example is envenom (rouge ability in world of war craft) A finisher move that consumes poison stacks to deal dmg with 100% armor pen..Now this was originally built in as a pve talent and some kid somewhere decided to include it into his pvp spec and wham pl8 vs rouge = rouge win every time now...witch is bs but they cant forsee every choice made 5 million people where as they can see what choices will be made in a scripted instance..nither are harder to do then one or another...one just has people trying to figure out how to break it all the time

Edited, Jan 31st 2011 11:32am by Hemptation
#20 Jan 31 2011 at 1:12 PM Rating: Decent
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You all know that you can have mulitple callings if that is the right term. You can buy your first one for 30 gold which will then in effect give you 2 totally different callings if you want.

i.e. My one calling is Nighblade/Asssassin/Rift when I bought my second calling I made a ranged with MM/Rng/Bard I hope that clarifies things. As long as you have done the quest for each soul you can use them except fot the PvP which you buy with valor points
#21 Jan 31 2011 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Dreadblade wrote:
You all know that you can have mulitple callings if that is the right term. You can buy your first one for 30 gold which will then in effect give you 2 totally different callings if you want.

i.e. My one calling is Nighblade/Asssassin/Rift when I bought my second calling I made a ranged with MM/Rng/Bard I hope that clarifies things. As long as you have done the quest for each soul you can use them except fot the PvP which you buy with valor points


Actually, they are called roles. Callings are Nightblade, Assassin, etc. A role - you can have up to 4 - is a collection of three callings. The PvP callings are purchased with something called Favor which is earned through, what else, PvP.
#22 Jan 31 2011 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Dreadblade wrote:
You all know that you can have mulitple callings if that is the right term. You can buy your first one for 30 gold which will then in effect give you 2 totally different callings if you want.

i.e. My one calling is Nighblade/Asssassin/Rift when I bought my second calling I made a ranged with MM/Rng/Bard I hope that clarifies things. As long as you have done the quest for each soul you can use them except fot the PvP which you buy with valor points


Calling - Warrior, Cleric, Mage, Rogue - You can only have 1 of those

Souls - Beastmaster, Warlock, Chloromancer, Justicar etc. you can only have the 9 (8 plus the pvp soul) associated with your calling.

Role (The word you are looking for) - You can have 4 of them. They can be any combination of 3 that you can make with your 9 souls from your 1 calling. To change Roles is a 2 second cast time. And you have to be out of combat.

Edited, Jan 31st 2011 2:25pm by Danex317
#23 Jan 31 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Carukia wrote:
Dreadblade wrote:
You all know that you can have mulitple callings if that is the right term. You can buy your first one for 30 gold which will then in effect give you 2 totally different callings if you want.

i.e. My one calling is Nighblade/Asssassin/Rift when I bought my second calling I made a ranged with MM/Rng/Bard I hope that clarifies things. As long as you have done the quest for each soul you can use them except fot the PvP which you buy with valor points


Actually, they are called roles. Callings are Nightblade, Assassin, etc. A role - you can have up to 4 - is a collection of three callings. The PvP callings are purchased with something called Favor which is earned through, what else, PvP.


Yes they are roles...and your talking about souls....and callings are mage rouge warrior cleric as dane said
#24 Jan 31 2011 at 2:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Thank you for the clarification of Roles not souls lol
#25 Jan 31 2011 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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A toll is a toll, and a roll is a roll. And if we don't get no tolls, then we don't eat no rolls. I made that up.
#26 Jan 31 2011 at 4:33 PM Rating: Decent
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rofl, as long as the roll does not attract the trolls
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