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anyone else annoyed with lack of dual targeting?Follow

#1 Jan 31 2011 at 4:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I think Rift screwed up when they decided to go with the single target system. The dual target system that Warhammer and Vanguard use is so much better. Does anyone know why they chose the inferior single targeting system over the dual targeting system?

Btw, for those of you that don't know, dual targeting means that you can have an offensive and a defensive target at the same time. It is freakin awesome.

How does Rift not have this?
#2 Jan 31 2011 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Do you mean target of target? It's been awhile since I've played VG or WAR. Under interface settings, you can enable target of target (and allow for cast through, yay!) and also have a focus target up. Takes some tinkering to use, but I love it. For big rift events, I target the boss, heal through it, throw some damage around when I'm not busy healing. Works great.
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#3 Jan 31 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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in WAR you could target an enemy and a friendly at the same time.
#4 Jan 31 2011 at 5:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Vendolyn wrote:
Do you mean target of target? It's been awhile since I've played VG or WAR. Under interface settings, you can enable target of target (and allow for cast through, yay!) and also have a focus target up. Takes some tinkering to use, but I love it. For big rift events, I target the boss, heal through it, throw some damage around when I'm not busy healing. Works great.


No, I'm not talking about target of target. I'm talking about dual targeting. Dual targeting means that you SIMULTANEOUSLY have an offensive target and a defensive target. Both targets are displayed on the screen at the same time.

Let's say that you are a Beastmaster and you are fighting a mob and you want to heal your pet. Under the current targeting system, you would have to swicth your target from the mob to the pet, heal your pet, and then switch it back to the mob and start attacking again.

Under the dual targeting system, you simultaneously have the mob and the pet targeted. The mob is your offensive/hostile target and your pet is your defensive/friendly target. You can cast heal on your pet and the heal spell would know to automatically try to heal your friendly target instead of the hostile target. All the while, you maintain targeting on the mob that you are fighting. There is no annoying switching back and forth.

For healers, dual targeting is especially helpful. Dual targeting is amazing and the single target system that Rift is using is horrible.
#5 Jan 31 2011 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Dual targeting is amazing and the single target system that Rift is using is horrible.


You mean the single targeting system that nearly every other MMO uses? Works just fine for me.
#6 Jan 31 2011 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
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The example of the beastmaster given, with Rift's system, does not mean you need to do any target switching. On my screen (if I were the BM in question here), I would have both the monster I'm fighting and my pet displayed on my screen. With cast-through enabled (I believe it's called something like "cast on target of target"), I see my bet getting low, cast a heal and my pet gets healed. I'm still hard targeting the mob, so after my heal is finished casting, I'm back to dpsing the mob again.
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#7 Jan 31 2011 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Raolan wrote:
Quote:
Dual targeting is amazing and the single target system that Rift is using is horrible.


You mean the single targeting system that nearly every other MMO uses? Works just fine for me.


You will think differently once you have actually tried dual targeting. The single targeting system is outdated.
#8 Jan 31 2011 at 6:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Vendolyn wrote:
The example of the beastmaster given, with Rift's system, does not mean you need to do any target switching. On my screen (if I were the BM in question here), I would have both the monster I'm fighting and my pet displayed on my screen. With cast-through enabled (I believe it's called something like "cast on target of target"), I see my bet getting low, cast a heal and my pet gets healed. I'm still hard targeting the mob, so after my heal is finished casting, I'm back to dpsing the mob again.


Maybe the beastmaster was a bad example. A cleric healing a tank would have to switch targets back and forth if he wanted to attack.
#9 Jan 31 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I have a 26 cleric and have had no issues throwing out dps on mobs while hard-targeting my tank or anyone else.
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#10 Jan 31 2011 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
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kingphin13 wrote:
Vendolyn wrote:
The example of the beastmaster given, with Rift's system, does not mean you need to do any target switching. On my screen (if I were the BM in question here), I would have both the monster I'm fighting and my pet displayed on my screen. With cast-through enabled (I believe it's called something like "cast on target of target"), I see my bet getting low, cast a heal and my pet gets healed. I'm still hard targeting the mob, so after my heal is finished casting, I'm back to dpsing the mob again.


Maybe the beastmaster was a bad example. A cleric healing a tank would have to switch targets back and forth if he wanted to attack.


Still a bad example. The mob is targeting the tank hopefully so same as beastmaster example.

The single target system isn't outdated. I do see how the dual targeting system could be better though. You just have to present your argument better next time. Saying a system (especially single targeting) is horrible is not the best way to get people to your side.
#11 Jan 31 2011 at 7:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Raolan wrote:
You mean the single targeting system that nearly every other MMO uses? Works just fine for me.

It works fine in the way that opening up a spellbook in WoW or FFXI instead of using the macro/hotbar "works fine." It works fine in the same way that command line based interfaces work fine and you "don't really need" a gui to run windows or any application. I played Warhammer as a healer and will be playing rift as a healer. Dual targeting makes the game much more fun and less frustrating. It's a godsend, and once you try it you will never want to go back.

From what I have heard Trion doesn't want to use such a system because while they acknowledge that it is better, they think it will confuse newer players and so they aim to keep the game simple.
#12 Jan 31 2011 at 7:02 PM Rating: Default
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Danex317 wrote:
kingphin13 wrote:
Vendolyn wrote:
The example of the beastmaster given, with Rift's system, does not mean you need to do any target switching. On my screen (if I were the BM in question here), I would have both the monster I'm fighting and my pet displayed on my screen. With cast-through enabled (I believe it's called something like "cast on target of target"), I see my bet getting low, cast a heal and my pet gets healed. I'm still hard targeting the mob, so after my heal is finished casting, I'm back to dpsing the mob again.


Maybe the beastmaster was a bad example. A cleric healing a tank would have to switch targets back and forth if he wanted to attack.


Still a bad example. The mob is targeting the tank hopefully so same as beastmaster example.

The single target system isn't outdated. I do see how the dual targeting system could be better though. You just have to present your argument better next time. Saying a system (especially single targeting) is horrible is not the best way to get people to your side.


I'm standing by my claim that Rift's current targeting system is terrible. There was a time when the single target system was ok, but the MMO industry has evolved past that. There was a tiem when I felt teh same as you guys do about the single target system. It works.

But then I played games with dual targeting and realized how bad the single target system is. And target of target is not the same thing.

Unless you have actually tried dual targeting, you won't really understand what I'm talking about. It is a major MMO advancement that the dev team at Rift has turned their backs on.
#13 Jan 31 2011 at 7:07 PM Rating: Default
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Allegory wrote:
Raolan wrote:
You mean the single targeting system that nearly every other MMO uses? Works just fine for me.

It works fine in the way that opening up a spellbook in WoW or FFXI instead of using the macro/hotbar "works fine." It works fine in the same way that command line based interfaces work fine and you "don't really need" a gui to run windows or any application. I played Warhammer as a healer and will be playing rift as a healer. Dual targeting makes the game much more fun and less frustrating. It's a godsend, and once you try it you will never want to go back.

From what I have heard Trion doesn't want to use such a system because while they acknowledge that it is better, they think it will confuse newer players and so they aim to keep the game simple.



Ah, finally, someone that knows what I'm talking about. Yes, dual targeting is a god send. How in the world would it confuse any players? That doesn't make any sense.

If they admit it's better, then they should use it. This is really weird.
#14 Jan 31 2011 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Dual targeting is superior, in that it allows you to 1) do the things you are already doing, but far more easily, 2) do the things you are already doing, but far more consistently, ) and 3) do things previously not possible.

Target of target is simple cumbersome in many circumstances. The most obvious is as a healer in a pvp or raid environment agaisnt multiple enemies. In pvp you will be healing very spontaneously, switching to many allies very quickly. These allies will often be fighting many different targets. It's impossible to know with target-of-my-target who you are targeting offensively when you have an ally selected. If I need to keep an enemy healer silenced while I try to keep my allies up, I will have to search for and reselect him after I heal an ally in order to silence him again. Dual target makes it extremely easy to keep him as my offensive target while I hop around on healing allies. This also might happen to apply to a lot of tanks in pvp or raid situations, defending on the amount of single player defensive options they have.

As for making things possible that previously aren't, WAR is a fine example. One of the classes in that game is called a Disciple of Khaine. They are melee healers who use the souls of their enemies to fuel their healing. Some of their moves did things like damage their enemy and heal an ally for the portion of that damage. This wouldn't be possible to do without dual targeting.

Edited, Jan 31st 2011 7:18pm by Allegory
#15 Jan 31 2011 at 7:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I have used the dual targeting too, and yes it is definetly better. Target of target is okay, but it mainly centers on, and is only helpful on, the player being targeted by the mob. Where dual targeting comes in handy is say..if you are the secondary healer, and the main healer already has the main tank taken care of, its nice as the spot healer to be able to have another player in the group targeted on dual target if that player is drawing occasional aggro. It helps alot, and thats just one example right off the top of my head.

That and target of target is mainly used, and WAS mainly used on EQ2 as a great main assist tool, not so much for healing purposes.


Edited, Jan 31st 2011 8:17pm by Drozreich
#16 Jan 31 2011 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
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kingphin13 wrote:
How in the world would it confuse any players?

Because not very many games use it and it's a counter-intuive concept. You can judge by the confusion here that it's not something people pick up on and understand right away.

I wouldn't mind it being an advanced option with the default staying as singular targeting.
#17 Jan 31 2011 at 7:23 PM Rating: Default
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Allegory, if they made it a preference, trust me, a group of single target guys like you would get raped by the dual targeting guys over and over again. Its a huge advantage and its way better.
#18 Jan 31 2011 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Drozreich wrote:
Allegory, if they made it a preference, trust me, a group of single target guys like you would get raped by the dual targeting guys over and over again.

Single target guys like me? I think you're confused on how I stand on this issue.
#19 Jan 31 2011 at 7:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I think he just makes it sound confusing by using the wording "offensive" target and "defensive" target. An easier way to describe it is to just say...you can have a "friendly" target and a"hostile" target both targeted. One in your friendly target window, and one in your hostile target window. You can heal the friendly without having to click him, heal, then click back to the mob. Its very nice and I would LOVE for them to add it.
#20 Jan 31 2011 at 7:27 PM Rating: Decent
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okay, sorry, meant no offense, just saying to anyone who might read i guess. lol
#21 Jan 31 2011 at 7:35 PM Rating: Default
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Allegory wrote:
kingphin13 wrote:
How in the world would it confuse any players?

Because not very many games use it and it's a counter-intuive concept. You can judge by the confusion here that it's not something people pick up on and understand right away.

I wouldn't mind it being an advanced option with the default staying as singular targeting.


You know, I guess you're right. The first few responses to this thread were from people that had no idea what dual targeting was and they were in full attack mode against me, and all this because they were confused about what dual atrgeting was.

People need to be open-minded and willing to consider that their are superior alternatives to the way that they do things ... SUCH AS DUAL TARGETING INSTEAD OF SINGLE TARGETING! (Sorry, I couldn't help myself)
#22 Jan 31 2011 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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You're lucky Allegory is able to discuss the topic rationally because you just sound like a troll kingphin.

I don't believe targeting systems should have any major options like single or dual targeting. Dual targeting does sound 'superior' and by superior it kind of falls into the category of making the game drastically easier at points. So it is either all or none. I personally vote no on the subject because a game has to be created around the curve that being able to target two things at one creates.
#23 Jan 31 2011 at 7:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Danex317 wrote:
I personally vote no on the subject because a game has to be created around the curve that being able to target two things at one creates.

Largely it's just a convenience, but it is one I will miss. I can understand their reasons for not implementing it, and I accept them reluctantly.
#24 Jan 31 2011 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I prefer single target to dual, it takes up less UI space and switching targets is easy anyways.
#25 Jan 31 2011 at 8:08 PM Rating: Default
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Danex317 wrote:
You're lucky Allegory is able to discuss the topic rationally because you just sound like a troll kingphin.

I don't believe targeting systems should have any major options like single or dual targeting. Dual targeting does sound 'superior' and by superior it kind of falls into the category of making the game drastically easier at points. So it is either all or none. I personally vote no on the subject because a game has to be created around the curve that being able to target two things at one creates.


How am I being a troll? I started a thread about a legitimate topic and explained what it was. People don't like what I have to say and throw their little hissy fits.

And yes, Allegory is discussing it rationally, unlike others that posted who have never even tried dual targeting, or even know what it is, and yet somehow having fully formed opinions on the subject.

Dual targeting is superior to single targeting. I'm sorry if that hurts people's feelings, but thats just how it is. You may say that it is just my opinion, but a vast majority of people that have actually tried both targeting systems will agree with me.

I guess you guys are all upset with me because you think i am bashing Rift, but actually, I am not. I think Rift is a good game, but I cannot help but think about how much better it could have been if they had used a more modern targeting system.
#26 Jan 31 2011 at 8:40 PM Rating: Decent
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One thing I WILL say though, being an old school Everquest 1 veteran, that the single target system brought a level of competitiveness to the game. It takes more skill, and quick trigger fingers. Skill of the mouse and keyboard definetly come into play at times, regardless of class. It was definetly more challenging and fun.
#27 Jan 31 2011 at 9:26 PM Rating: Good
Set your focus to the add then sheep(CC)it then attack the boss, re CC with focus. Set your focus to the boss and refresh your judgement haste boost while healing the main tank and raid.

You mean that sort of thing?

I did not even realize you could not do that in Rift. It does come in handy once encounter mechanics get more complex but its not game breaking really imho. It's to early to worry about that sort of thing in Rift as far as I am concerned. But since we can't play at the moment we might as well give feedback on what they might consider adding I suppose.
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#28 Feb 01 2011 at 5:11 AM Rating: Decent
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kingphin13 wrote:
Danex317 wrote:
You're lucky Allegory is able to discuss the topic rationally because you just sound like a troll kingphin.

I don't believe targeting systems should have any major options like single or dual targeting. Dual targeting does sound 'superior' and by superior it kind of falls into the category of making the game drastically easier at points. So it is either all or none. I personally vote no on the subject because a game has to be created around the curve that being able to target two things at one creates.


How am I being a troll? I started a thread about a legitimate topic and explained what it was. People don't like what I have to say and throw their little hissy fits.

And yes, Allegory is discussing it rationally, unlike others that posted who have never even tried dual targeting, or even know what it is, and yet somehow having fully formed opinions on the subject.

Dual targeting is superior to single targeting. I'm sorry if that hurts people's feelings, but thats just how it is. You may say that it is just my opinion, but a vast majority of people that have actually tried both targeting systems will agree with me.

I guess you guys are all upset with me because you think i am bashing Rift, but actually, I am not. I think Rift is a good game, but I cannot help but think about how much better it could have been if they had used a more modern targeting system.


The reason people may think of you as a troll, is because you could've made your argument smoother instead of simply telling people that their way of doing things suck, and yours is better.
You're free to have your own opinion of course, and have all right to voice it as well, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't be considerate of other peoples opinions.
I was assuming you posted this here because you wanted to have some sort of discussion about it, but you are bashing everyone who does not share your opinion.

Justifying "Hurting people's feelings" with the fact that your argument is supposedly superior doesn't work very well either. Just because you think Dual-Targeting is the best thing since sliced bread doesn't mean everyone will agree with you, and you're going to have to accept their opinions if you really want to discuss the matter. You sound like a troll because you make it sound like your opinion matters more than anyone else.
You may be right, of course, I haven't tried Dual-Targeting so I wouldn't know. But sometimes you just have to be nice to people if you want to get your point across, though.

On topic, I haven't tried Dual-Targeting like I said. It sounds fairly interesting, but at the moment, I'd probably stick with single-targeting, like most others. Don't fix what's not broken, I suppose, although I'd like to try Dual-Targeting at some point. It's hard to imagine what its like when you cant actually try it, but at the moment it doesn't sound like Dual-Targeting lets me do anything I can't already do by switching targets. Still, it would be nice to try it and compare the differences.
#29 Feb 01 2011 at 11:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Play nice, kids - or Mommy Dearest will bring out the wire hanger.

Edited, Feb 1st 2011 12:41pm by Kaasha
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#30 Feb 01 2011 at 11:41 AM Rating: Decent
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I personally like the way the targeting system is now. Partially because it's what I'm accustomed to, and partially because I believe it's all that's really necessary. There's been features in every decent MMO I can think of, that lets you do your little "dual targeting", in a traditional "single targeting" interface; they're called focus frames. Having the option to set a focus frame, and make focus macros (like RIFT does), is all you would ever need. It's actually better than having a "dual targeting" system; I'll elaborate.

Example #1: In this scenario I will prove how having a focus frame is just as good as having a "dual targeting" system. So, like you said, let's say you're the healer of a group. You want to be able to attack, and keep the tank's frame on your screen, and be able to heal him as soon as he drops health, but maybe you don't want to rely on target of target to do that, because if he does lose aggro some time or another, that method @#%^s you. Well, you can simply type /focus on him, and his frame will be on your screen at all times. Then, if you have macros on your action bars such as "/cast [target=focus] Heal", you will not have to switch targets or anything, simply hit that macro, and you're healing him. Just the same as your "dual targeting" system.

Example #2: In this scenario, I will prove how having a focus frame is better, than a "dual targeting" system. Now in this scenario, you're in a battleground doing some PvP. Instead of having one friendly and one enemy target, with a focus frame...you can have an enemy targeted, and another enemy focused. In essence, two enemy targets. So you are then given the ability to make use of /focus macros for CC abilities, or interrupts, while not having to actually switch to the CC or interrupt target, and staying on your dps target of choice. This is only done through use of a focus frame.

TLDR: There's no reason for a "dual targeting" system. Sure you may have tried it, and you may have liked it because of how easy or convenient it was for you. Using /focus isn't that hard though, and anything you want from a "dual targeting" system can be achieved through proper use of the /focus system, so you really have no room to complain here, or even be annoyed, honestly. Also, like stated earlier, proper use of a focus frames allows you to do things that your "dual targeting" system does not. So I am very thankful the developers took the time to create a proper focus frame and macro interface, rather than a "dual targeting" system.

Edited, Feb 1st 2011 12:44pm by Fahros
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#31 Feb 01 2011 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Kaasha wrote:
Play nice, kids - or Mommy Dearest will bring out the wire hanger.

Edited, Feb 1st 2011 12:41pm by Kaasha


Abort, abort!

Couldn't resist that. I also thought king was a troll after reading it since he didn't bother with a really solid example of dual targeting. I'm familiar with it and did enjoy it in Warhammer, but can live without it for the time being. I did like allegory's suggestion that offered the current targeting system as the default option and having dual targeting as an advanced option.

I did see an option for something like 'smart targeting', I wanted to play around with it to see what it did but I didn't get around to it prior to the beta event ending. I'll try in the next one coming up I guess, I'm hoping it gives me a laser to paint my targets for air support.
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