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Healing Cleric DataFollow

#1 Feb 05 2011 at 8:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Now that Bohtauri has provided rank information I've started doing some analysis on the three primary healing trees for Clerics. I'm still in the process of entering data, but I have taken a look at the complete results for single target healing, untalented between the three classes (except for grabbing abilities like Healing Invocation and Healing Flare)

Some interesting and nonobvious conclusions can be made. The first is that Sentinel untalented has the highest HP/S with constant spam of Healing Invocation, at 200.5 HP per second. Healing Grace also isn't too bad, coming in at 185.25 HP/S. Purifier is close at 180.5 with their Restorative Flame. Surprisingly Warden's struggle quite a bit at achieving a decent HP/S score, with absolutely all their single target HoTs ticking and Deluge spammed every chance they get, they peak at 188 HP/S, and if you don't keep a difficult to cycle Healing Current in there it drops to 155 HP/S.

A near reverse situation is true of mana efficiency. The top leader at a startling 10 HP/MP is a fully stacked soothing stream, and the next 3 slots are the Warden's other regular single target heals, with the lowest being healing current at 7.3 HP/MP. Sentinel follows up with Healing Invocation at 5.9 HP/MP and their three other single target heals all close to that. Purifier is in last place with Restorative Flame at 4.9 and Healing Flame at 4.63. Healing Flare (their talented instant cast heal) has absolutely abysmal efficiency at 1.9 HP/MP.


This is all untalented and ungeared information so far, and so is not entirely reflective of the classes in practice. Some very clear conclusions can be drawn though. Taking the upgrade Lasting Invocation for Healing Invocation isn't that useful as a Sentinel. I ran the numbers and spamming Healing Invocation every 3 seconds (losing 5 seconds on the lasting invocation) is still more HP/S and more efficient than trying to rotate in lasting grace, you end up with about a 10% bonus instead of 30%. However it might make a good move to rotate with restorative flame. Restorative Flame, starting out as the worse 3 second heal, gets potentially a lot better with the shielding talent, depending on how much wisdom one can get.

Warden's get about a 20% boost to their healing due to talents that the other two can't make use of, which helps them a little in the HP/S department. However, it's almost a necessity to take reduced casting time on deluge to boost their HP/S. Once they do however, they potentially become the most efficient and highest HP/S healer of the three.

I'll do some more work later. If anyone knows a good way to host the excel sheet I have with data, let me know.


Testing has been more difficulty than I thought, because it's hard to test spells free of all the bonuses that normally come in any healing speck.

I was, however, able to test my level 21 warden spec in the Fae instance. Previously I had gone as a sentinel and used primarily Healing Invocation to heal.

If early levels are a good indication of what I can expect at higher levels, then I've seen two very important things. First, mana efficiency isn't that big of a concern. My second pass through the fae instance a warden, without even trying to be mana efficient--such as recasting my hots when only half their duration was gone--I never touched below 80% mana. Most of the time I was never below 90% mana. I don't remember exactly how low I hit on my sentinel, but I do remember thinking I had way, way too much mana. The second conclusion is that Damage and Healing relative to Max HP are very high.

The second part is quite important, because it determines how tanks die. When my 3 second heal restores more than 50% of the tanks HP, and each hit damages him for almost as much, timing heals starts to matter a lot. Warden spells proved fairly dangerous to heal with because you can't afford to over heal with Healing Current or Deluge, or else you you sacrifice too much HP/S, but at the same time you can't afford to wait around with either too much because that also sacrifice's HP/S and potentially screws your rotation. Letting Soothing stream drop because you were busy casting some other heal can really hurt you. Overall, while Warden may be potentially the best straight up efficiency and HPS healer when everything goes perfectly, it is also potentially the most error prone. Sentinel does fairly well with Healing Invocation spam, and that can be easily timed to flow with the nature of damage spikes. Purifier's Restorative Flame however is potentially one of the safest heals in the game. It's very similar to Healing Invocation, but with less efficiency and HPS. What makes it so good though, is the talent that goes with it. Shielding your ally an additional amount is a wonderful thing to have to help protect against spike damage and give you a wider safety net. At 21 I had 170 spell power, and so 60% would have been 102 HP. At 50 that could fairly easily be a 250-300 HP shield. While still lacking in both efficiency and pure HPS, that safety net seems like it could easily prevent more tank wipes in a 5 man party situation.

Edited, Feb 6th 2011 2:16am by Allegory
#2 Feb 06 2011 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
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So I saw a post on the official boards complaining about Ebb and Flow (Warden Talent) and I had also noticed it failing to achieve a reasonable number of stacks. I decided then to run the numbers, and here is a copy of my post from there.

It's practically impossible to build up 5 stacks in a realistic situation.

I messed around with it, spamming (as in 1.5 gcd) a cycle of my 4 diffrent single target ward heals on a friend, and I almost never reached 5 stacks.

And for fun, let's use the binomial theorem to calculate the odds of getting 5 stacks within a certain number of casts! Since GCD is 1.5 seconds, and you have 10 seconds to get another stack, you have 6 casts to get another proc (assuming you spam spells) before you lose all your stacks.

All possible outcomes can be represented as 1=(.3+.7)^6, shown as 1=(X+Y)^6 when expanded, for getting a second stack, where .3 is the probability for success and .7 the probability for failing on any one cast. Expanding this out we get X^6 + 6(X^5)Y + 15(X^4)(Y^2) + 20(X^3)(Y^3) + 15X^2(Y^4) + 6X(Y^5) + Y^6. With the x^n term being the chance of achieving x successes in 6 casts.

The probability of getting a second stack in 6 casts is therefore 6X(Y^5), 6*.3(.7^5), or 0.302526. That this probability is close to the original 30% is coincidental, and we did need to do fancy maths to get it.

So what does all this fancy math stuff really mean? It means ebb and flow is worthless. After your first proc if you spam spells at the GCD you have at best a 30% chance to get a second stack. You have approximately a 9% chance to get a 3 stacks from your first proc, almost a 3% chance to get 4 stacks from that first proc, and less than a 1% chance to get 5 stacks from that first proc. This is assuming you spam like mad with no concern for efficiency, and that you only use instant cast or 1.5 cast time spells, nothing longer.
#3 Feb 06 2011 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I think warden won't be that far behind in HPS just because of the sheer power of surging rapids with fluidity; even if they're not multiplicative that's still 25%. Most others, like sentinel's benediction + light efficiency, have 5-10%, not to mention warden can grab that benediction, but other souls get a lot less bonus out of surging rapids and fluidity if they take them. I also tend to believe that HoTs have a higher spell power coefficient based on my experience in other MMOs, though I haven't tested that.

In the end I think warden will pull ahead of others as group healers and still be viable main tank healers. I have to say Trion's been pretty good at balancing thus far; my hopes are high for endgame :)
#4 Feb 07 2011 at 1:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Sententia wrote:
I think warden won't be that far behind in HPS just because of the sheer power of surging rapids with fluidity; even if they're not multiplicative that's still 25%.

Oh you're definitely correct. Even ignoring that, the talent that reduces their 8 second cd on Deluge to 4 seconds gives them a huge boost in HPS (an extra 68 HPS actually).
#5 Feb 08 2011 at 5:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Doing Healing Current, Ripple, Healing Flood, Healing Spray, Healing Breath constantly... I rarely run out of mana unless it's a rift invasion boss. I have done it there... just too much need for big spells with the AoE damage going on.

I am pretty sure that I never went below 30% mana by the time a fight/rift was done from stage 1-5 in level 27-29 range.

I did use Ebb and Flow, and I still believe that it's a part of why I didn't run out. Because that little boost is usually enough to get some mana back that you need. Instead of being 30% mana, i would have had say 10% mana. Which means someone is going to die at that point or I need to use a potion.

Honestly, until I can get ACT to work with heals instead of dps in Rift (If anyone has the config for it, please let me know... I just cannot get it to recognize heals...), then most of these number crunching helps, but ... I really would like to see some other way to track all of this stuff in real time. I don't even think ACT will show you stuff like "how much did this ability proc". :(

I'm still working on testing out certain builds, and thus far, I haven't found any reason to not be in a dungeon as a non-sentinel class. As well, I have yet to find a solution for the lack of AoE healing from Sentinel's and therefore Wardens excel. Purifier is actually really nice in PvP heals.
-[ If it doesn't hurt, you're not doing it right ]-
#6 Feb 12 2011 at 1:24 AM Rating: Decent
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OP: I appreciate your #s and in particular, discouraging me from taking Ebb and Flow until it's fixed. Although, untalented HPS assessments are unfortunately practically useless, because without talents you don't have access to those abilities, and the talents/interactions/real-world encounter rotation suitability are what make them more or less valuable. I'm working on a Cleric calc in the style of Daidalos' resto shaman spreadsheet, although I don't think it will be ready until a few weeks into release.

If early levels are a good indication of what I can expect at higher levels, then I've seen two very important things. First, mana efficiency isn't that big of a concern. My second pass through the fae instance a warden, without even trying to be mana efficient--such as recasting my hots when only half their duration was gone--I never touched below 80% mana. Most of the time I was never below 90% mana. I don't remember exactly how low I hit on my sentinel, but I do remember thinking I had way, way too much mana. The second conclusion is that Damage and Healing relative to Max HP are very high.

I found that with Beta 6 and the tank nerfs, solo healing defiant/contested dungeons >lv25 (no bard/chloro) became significantly more challenging. DSM, FC and KB each feature 1-2 encounters that demand intense a/o cautious mana usage, depending on the quality of your party. I was going OOM keeping up with the damage in PUGs while still maintaining 90-94% efficiency according to RJParser, which made me look very closely at the various trees' strengths. It also made me rage at my parties a bunch for ignoring boss mechanics. Through these experiences, I settled on a high tank damage (trash) Warden spec, but more importantly the following boss spec:

<a href="">Sentinel (31) / Purifier (3) / Warden (12)</a>

Spec notes: Primary Sentinel, secondary Warden, some Purifier. The goal is to maintain maximum Serendipity/hasted uptime for high throughput (not ideal for long, mana intensive fights but excellent for coping with burst). HoTs are used as buffers, and at level 36, to synch with Deluge (Healing Flood/Healing Spray/Healing Current/Lasting Invocation) if #s ultimately support this approach. Enraptured Breath is your bread and butter, and WOW! it is fantastic, this talent is really my favorite of all the trees, which is saying a lot given how much I love hasted casts, as well as the long cooldown on Healing Breath. You can serve as an Enraptured Breath node, running around and "linking" the heal between ranged and melee groups. Super mana efficient and just plain awesome. At level 35, it's critting for ~1.1k, iirc, on the primary target with level-appropriate dungeon gear (KB/FC).

I really am not sure which direction I plan to go in after this, though. Right now, tank damage on boss fights is minimal, assuming your tank gives a sh*t. So I'm less inclined to go with mitigation/high single target vs output/aoe. I really, really like the look of the 38 point sentinel talent, although you have to fish through garbage to get there. With Enraptured Breath, Shared Recovery is useless. Lasting Invocation and Light Efficiency aren't much for 5 points. I like Healing Flare and Enflamed Rejuvenation from Puri, but do I like them enough? Orbs of the Stream is useless, and there's little point in Deluge unless I'm diligent about maintaining 2+ HoTs on my target (or I spec for reduced cooldown/improved output), to offset the difference between Deluge and Healing Grace. Not enough tank damage on bosses for heavy single target casts to be worthwhile. Soothing Stream stacks are a lot of work/attention and mana. Etc... The trees are all SO diverse and there are so many approaches. And we have no idea what level 50 encounters will look like. Anything now is really just speculation!

The "difficult" healing encounters and loosely, why this spec works:

Gatekeeper Kaleida in DSM: drags on, boss heals if DPS aren't savvy, lots of incoming damage if the DPS+tank aren't savvy. This is more of a mana issue than a damage issue, because damage almost always bursts in sets of 2-3 targets, and you can't afford to let players heal up slowly. So you have to either use expensive aoe abilities, maintain prophylactic HoTs, or rely on Enraptured Breath. Enraptured Breath is made for this fight. Assuming no one interrupts the boss or moves out of the way of explosions (because we couldn't expect people to do that...), damage always comes in groups of 3's, and look at that, E.B. heals 3 targets. One E.B. and a Healing Flood and you're good. Tank damage is minimal. You'll be >50% mana at the end of the fight if done properly.

Matron Verosa in FC: High tank and party damage unless your DPS are paying attention and stack at the right times (which of course, they don't). You need good, multi-target bursty heals to deal with Lesch's nuke, Gurze's cleave, and Maton's AoE. Again, if you don't keep players topped off, particularly ranged who won't stack, they may die. Hence the value of Enraptured Breath (again) and Serendipity in particular, since you'll probably be stacking some HoTs on the tank/keeping Healing Flood up, which will proc Serendipity frequently. I strongly recommend against primary Warden for this fight, I found it was not sufficient to keep up with the burst without careful multi-target HoT-management as a preventative (which is absurd).

Autoch in KB: will one-shot people if you engage incorrectly. The AoE damage is manageable through an intense-but-short-lived (low boss HP) rotation of cooldowns/AoE healing spells. I'd be interested in trying this as a warden and would love to hear other peoples' experiences. I think Purifier would get owned (although you can probably tell by now, I don't care for the Puri tree).

Edited, Feb 12th 2011 2:51am by fluxions
#7 Feb 15 2011 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
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I made a silly mistake with Ebb and Flow. I calculated the probability of only one proc occurring out of 6, not at least one. I'll fix the math soon, but it's still a low percentage with spam at 1.5 gcd, and most of the time you won't be healing that quickly.

Beta 7 made a huge change, being that I can now see the amount I overheal myself for when I am at full health. This makes it far easier to test.

I can confirm that at least Enflamed Rejuvenation and Critical healing percentage bonuses are multiplied and not added together. I healed for a base of 492-498 with Rejuvenating Flame, and got a heal of 972 when using Enflamed Rejuvenation on a Crit heal. The ratio of the heal was around 1.95 (1.3*1.5) and not 1.8 (1.3+.5).

All the Purifier shields stack. I could have Shield of the ancestors, Caregiver's Blessing, and Ancestral Flame on me all at once.

I'm trying to test some coefficients right now. I noticed that even as an instant, healing breath has a much high coefficient than healing grace.

Healing Grace seemed to have a coefficient of 2. Healing for about 275 on average, with a base of 202 average, and DPS increase from spell power of 36.6. The difference is almost exactly 72, which is twice my DPS increase. Restorative Flame appeared to be a coefficient of exactly 6. Healing Flame had a coefficient of nearly 1.5. Healing Breath had a coefficient of 3.72ish, which I guess might be 4. Healing spray appeared to have a coefficient of 2.73.

Edited, Feb 15th 2011 9:03pm by Allegory
#8 Feb 16 2011 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Ya, I noticed that I can get to 3 stacks fairly easily with Ebb and Flow now. There is something that makes it not work though, I am convinced of it. Like, casting the same spell over and over again might have a reduced chance to proc it over a span of time. Because it seems, I get the buff quite fast if i'm mixing spells, but as soon as I start spamming deluge, it doesn't refresh nearly as often.

Not sure yet, but it just appears that way right now. Whether or not it's just chance... *shrug* But it's definitely better than it was before LOL
-[ If it doesn't hurt, you're not doing it right ]-
#9 Feb 18 2011 at 10:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Got any new data? Figured anything out?

I just started working on coefficients now since I dinged 42, but I'm glad you're seeing similar results. Here's what I found (including some interesting patterns) with no +sp +heal +etc talents, all noncrits:

SP: 517
"HPS": =SP/5 = 103.4 (displays as DPS in the stats interface on SP mouseover)

Because coefficients weren't getting me anywhere or showing a pattern, I included calculations for what cast time would theoretically be if HPS were applied predictably, by that I mean if HEAL=BASEHEAL+(CASTTIME*HPS).

Healing Breath
cast: 0
cd: 8
base: 339.5
experimental avg: 720
exp/base: 2.12
thy heal avg (HEAL=BASEHEAL+(CASTTIME*HPS): 494.6

actually you know what, just look here:

as you can see, only Healing Flame behaved predictably for me, while a 3s cast time nuke ended up behaving as if it had a 6s cast time, etc. I'm going to use my findings in the final spreadsheet either way, but...would love to make sense of this. Maybe cooldowns have some bearing on coefficients? I will test Healing Flare tonight as a comparison to Healing Breath.

This was only based on ~10 casts. Gonna work on it more when I get home from work tonight and more importantly, more abilities. I'll start checking this thread more regularly if you'd like to work together getting a table figured out for each spell. This has been holding up spreadsheet progress like you woudlnt believe :/

Edited, Feb 18th 2011 2:29pm by fluxions
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