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#1 Feb 08 2011 at 12:42 PM Rating: Sub-Default
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I enjoy Rift. A lot. Most of it PvE, questing and running around the world.
Rest of it on PvP. Codex is awesome, I rly enjoy it.

I'm a rouge. And I ask! What WRONG with you people!

Most amazing in Rift is class building. Mixing all the souls, different build of those you have.
That's rly something. There are things that you can't expect. A rouge tank? I've seen it in few dungeons. Shocked? Sure. Working? **** yea! Cleric tank? Same. Warrior tank... That's Obvious.

Healing? Same. Mages can heal. Chloromancer is a rly great healer. Had few of those and they did great. One of them was so amazing, he pulled us out from a sure wipe. Worked. Cleric... Obvious. On PvP and rifts, when you aren't fighting hitting like a truck boss, Rogue Bard is a nice AoE heal that works. I'm on my PvP role a Bard buffer/healer and I did more heal then other ppl. And not that I'm good.

Now, the... essence of this subject. Why all of you want to do DPS?! I know it's beta. But I see so many rouges, so many mages and sooooo many Clerics (what is shocking) on warfronts. And? No healer? WTF? Rouge okej, I get it. Mages... A bit. But Clerics? Why clerics do a dps race with warriors and rouges. That's STUPID. Why you can't get that even the best dps is worth a sh*t if he don't have support. Why, in a game where you Can do unexpected things in your class all want do DPS? Get a dungeon group? Hard as Sh*t. No healers, no tanks.

I know I'm a DPS myself but I wanted to keep on playing because its beta and I wanna see as much as possible. Later, ****. I'm a healer. But GUYS, if you want to enjoy rifts and warfronts do things that will help the whole group.
Heal, Buff, Tank. You egt points for that too. You know that?!

Ps. I want to do a discussion from it.To talk about this wonder.
#2 Feb 08 2011 at 12:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Yet1 wrote:

I know I'm a DPS myself but I wanted to keep on playing because its beta and I wanna see as much as possible. Later, ****. I'm a healer. But GUYS, if you want to enjoy rifts and warfronts do things that will help the whole group.
Heal, Buff, Tank. You egt points for that too. You know that?!


You answered your own question by the way.

DPS is the fastest leveling really I think. People don't like tanking (I don't know why dps is boring to me) but in a beta to see as much as possible quests and mobs are the fastest path. So I think that is a reasonable explanation besides your own reason why YOU weren't healing or tanking your own instances. Because you wanted to DPS :P
#3 Feb 08 2011 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
14 posts
Yea. Well I didn't sey everything. I played each class for few lvls. Rouge was my first one so i got him to 16. Other i got around 9-11. I loved cleric. I wanted to play him but highest was rouge, not much time. Lest play him.

But more the problem is that on warfronts and rifts we miss healers. I meant that the problem is that those that CAN heal, to win the WF, make it more interesting and better decide to do DPS. Like clerics, mages and rouges. Its SO OBVIOUS that we lack of healers but still. No re rolling (1 PVE, 1 PVP - I have it like that). They keep on doing DPS.
#4 Feb 08 2011 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
rouges are overpowdered


Rogues however are just fine.

People are generally DPS classes while leveling an MMO because they kill fast for questing. It's also generally more fun to blow people up in WF's.

This is nothing new. What is nice about Rift however is that you get access to extra roles pretty early. In beta I don't think people have taken the time to try all of them yet to expirement with their support/Heal/Tank builds as much simply becuase time is limited in beta. But they will.

What I don't want to hear is some rogue in a WF whining about not getting heals when I am on my shammy in beta just ******** around learning the class.

You want heals? Roll a healer and stfu. Don't QQ at me as if I owe you something.
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A frog jumps into the pond,
splash! Silence again.

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#5 Feb 08 2011 at 1:47 PM Rating: Default
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405 posts
Yet1 wrote:
I enjoy Rift. A lot. Most of it PvE, questing and running around the world.
Rest of it on PvP. Codex is awesome, I rly enjoy it.

I'm a rouge. And I ask! What WRONG with you people!

Most amazing in Rift is class building. Mixing all the souls, different build of those you have.
That's rly something. There are things that you can't expect. A rouge tank? I've seen it in few dungeons. Shocked? Sure. Working? **** yea! Cleric tank? Same. Warrior tank... That's Obvious.

Healing? Same. Mages can heal. Chloromancer is a rly great healer. Had few of those and they did great. One of them was so amazing, he pulled us out from a sure wipe. Worked. Cleric... Obvious. On PvP and rifts, when you aren't fighting hitting like a truck boss, Rogue Bard is a nice AoE heal that works. I'm on my PvP role a Bard buffer/healer and I did more heal then other ppl. And not that I'm good.

Now, the... essence of this subject. Why all of you want to do DPS?! I know it's beta. But I see so many rouges, so many mages and sooooo many Clerics (what is shocking) on warfronts. And? No healer? WTF? Rouge okej, I get it. Mages... A bit. But Clerics? Why clerics do a dps race with warriors and rouges. That's STUPID. Why you can't get that even the best dps is worth a sh*t if he don't have support. Why, in a game where you Can do unexpected things in your class all want do DPS? Get a dungeon group? Hard as Sh*t. No healers, no tanks.

I know I'm a DPS myself but I wanted to keep on playing because its beta and I wanna see as much as possible. Later, ****. I'm a healer. But GUYS, if you want to enjoy rifts and warfronts do things that will help the whole group.
Heal, Buff, Tank. You egt points for that too. You know that?!

Ps. I want to do a discussion from it.To talk about this wonder.


sounds to me your just mad you got steamrolled, lol "MOM IM SPAMMING MY FINISHER WITH FULL KAMBO POOINTS WHY IT NOT DEAD!?!?!?!?HALP!!"
#6 Feb 08 2011 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
14 posts
Shojindo, Hero of Orgrimmar wrote:
Quote:
rouges are overpowdered


Rogues however are just fine.


They are fine. Do a lot of dmg, easy to kill.

Shojindo, Hero of Orgrimmar wrote:

What I don't want to hear is some rogue in a WF whining about not getting heals when I am on my shammy in beta just ******** around learning the class.

You want heals? Roll a healer and stfu. Don't QQ at me as if I owe you something.



Well... That's kind of what I'm saying. I expect that clerics will do their job. I mean... healing? You have to got some healing spells so come on! Do some healing!

Edit:
Quote:
sounds to me your just mad you got steamrolled, lol "MOM IM SPAMMING MY FINISHER WITH FULL KAMBO POOINTS WHY IT NOT DEAD!?!?!?!?HALP!!"


And I bet that you are some of those DPS guys that spam 1-2-1-2-1-2 because they can't read spells. If you could read you would know I'm playing Rouge bard buff/aoe heal. HF

Edited, Feb 8th 2011 3:11pm by Yet1
#7 Feb 08 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm starting to take a shine to the Bard soul more and more.
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#8 Feb 08 2011 at 2:22 PM Rating: Default
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This thread should be deleted by the nub police..
#9 Feb 08 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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#10 Feb 08 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Proximornis wrote:
This thread should be deleted by the nub police..


Oh, the nub siren is going off...on you! Smiley: lol
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#11 Feb 08 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
They are fine. Do a lot of dmg, easy to kill.


Lmao *whoosh

Quote:
Well... That's kind of what I'm saying. I expect that clerics will do their job. I mean... healing? You have to got some healing spells so come on! Do some healing!


No. I'm not playing this game to be your mommy so you can run into packs of the enemy believing in your heart that you are Super Rouge™!(See what I did there?). If I come to a war front in a DPS cleric build get over your entitlement. Roll your own **** cleric and play it how ever you want. Save the wales and the bads.

If someone wants to DPS on their cleric or heal on their rogue (Bard is pretty ****) Rift lets you do that. Stop pigeonholing people into your 2005 MMO concepts.


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An old silent pond...
A frog jumps into the pond,
splash! Silence again.

~ Matsuo Basho
#12 Feb 08 2011 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Shojindo, Hero of Orgrimmar wrote:
Quote:
They are fine. Do a lot of dmg, easy to kill.


Lmao *whoosh

Quote:
Well... That's kind of what I'm saying. I expect that clerics will do their job. I mean... healing? You have to got some healing spells so come on! Do some healing!


No. I'm not playing this game to be your mommy so you can run into packs of the enemy believing in your heart that you are Super Rouge™!(See what I did there?). If I come to a war front in a DPS cleric build get over your entitlement. Roll your own **** cleric and play it how ever you want. Save the wales and the bads.

If someone wants to DPS on their cleric or heal on their rogue (Bard is pretty ****) Rift lets you do that. Stop pigeonholing people into your 2005 MMO concepts.




I am not defending him if he is pidgeonholing but I think he is just trying to say that nobody is playing healers. But I do agree to a point. Somebody does have to heal. If you are not a healer then he is asking you to try healing. Not telling you as a Cleric you can only heal.
#13 Feb 08 2011 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
14 posts
Danex is right. And I said it quite a lot. It's ******* me off that there is so many healer class and no one is doing it! And Shojindo I'm not in the first line. I'm a Bard. In the middle, giving my buffs to as many as I can. Yet I die. You know why? Because if there is a guy with his head on place in the other team he will focus me down. And I don't do enough heal to survive being nuked. That why I need sb to heal me. You get my point? There is no one to heal support. ***** idiots that run into 5 smashing 1-1-1-1-1-2. I expect some people to help me if I'm standing there to help him. And everybody around him.

And Rouge is quite easy to kill. Of course those that do a lot of dmg. But the reason of that might be the fact that most of people have quest items and don't know how to build their souls.... yet. You of course might be the PRO that knows.

ps. kTurner, don't like it? Don't check it.

Edited, Feb 8th 2011 4:11pm by Yet1
#14 Feb 08 2011 at 4:31 PM Rating: Good
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I recommend getting a friend then.
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#15 Feb 08 2011 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Yet1 wrote:
Danex is right. And I said it quite a lot. It's ******* me off that there is so many healer class and no one is doing it! And Shojindo I'm not in the first line. I'm a Bard. In the middle, giving my buffs to as many as I can. Yet I die. You know why? Because if there is a guy with his head on place in the other team he will focus me down. And I don't do enough heal to survive being nuked. That why I need sb to heal me. You get my point? There is no one to heal support. ***** idiots that run into 5 smashing 1-1-1-1-1-2. I expect some people to help me if I'm standing there to help him. And everybody around him.

And Rouge is quite easy to kill. Of course those that do a lot of dmg. But the reason of that might be the fact that most of people have quest items and don't know how to build their souls.... yet. You of course might be the PRO that knows.

ps. kTurner, don't like it? Don't check it.

Edited, Feb 8th 2011 4:11pm by Yet1



you must be playing on the wrong shard. There are plenty of sentinal/purifier/warden cleric builds on my shard. I know because I am one of them. Plenty of healers especially when some clerics purchase additional roles aside from the dps one used for solo questing...
#16 Feb 08 2011 at 5:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Yes all games need more healers and tanks. But I respect anyones right to play the classes the way they enjoy most. This is a sore subject for me as a hybrid player who does not enjoy healing but loves to tank and DPS on his Pally.

So if this is your first MMO and the concept of healer and tank shortages is new to you then welcome to MMO's!

But KT already won this thread. (great link)

So I will now talk about rogues.

Actually the rogue has some crazy survival builds. There was a thread at the rift forums about a Riftwalker/Bladedancer/Bard that was soloing most of the 5 man instances. Absorb sheilds, high armor, parry boosts, constant bard hots + buffs.

Sounds like a fun build.

From my experience on my level 25 Marks/Assassin/Rift he is actually getting pretty tough now. I like having the option of being able to either pull from stealth with stuns or pulling from range and popping Rift armor as soon as they close in. Then swapping to dual wield and carving them up. End most PVE non elite fights at near to full health either way.

It's fun in PvP too. Start shooting someone get the speed boost, close in and finish them. Most people expect you to run away when you have been shooting them with a bow. Oh you thought I was going to run? *bam stun assassin debuff poison rotation finisher time for you.


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An old silent pond...
A frog jumps into the pond,
splash! Silence again.

~ Matsuo Basho
#17 Feb 08 2011 at 5:20 PM Rating: Good
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I, for one, swore off playing a healer in MMOs a lonnnnng time ago. Too much responsibility, no glory, and usually mind numbingly boring work in PvE.

Initially I had the same thoughts for this game but I think rolling a healer and healing Rifts and WFs and then easily spec out of it for other tasks could be pretty **** awesome.
#18 Feb 08 2011 at 6:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yet1 wrote:
Danex is right. And I said it quite a lot. It's ******* me off that there is so many healer class and no one is doing it! And Shojindo I'm not in the first line. I'm a Bard. In the middle, giving my buffs to as many as I can. Yet I die. You know why? Because if there is a guy with his head on place in the other team he will focus me down. And I don't do enough heal to survive being nuked. That why I need sb to heal me. You get my point? There is no one to heal support. ***** idiots that run into 5 smashing 1-1-1-1-1-2. I expect some people to help me if I'm standing there to help him. And everybody around him.

And Rouge is quite easy to kill. Of course those that do a lot of dmg. But the reason of that might be the fact that most of people have quest items and don't know how to build their souls.... yet. You of course might be the PRO that knows.

ps. kTurner, don't like it? Don't check it.

Edited, Feb 8th 2011 4:11pm by Yet1


Yet1, your questions and concerns are under serious consideration by the Rift GM team.

I know a Rift dev. personally, and I have relayed your concerns along to him, because I think they're something that a lot of players are worried about. In this scenario, you really do speak for the community here. Your skepticism of this game's lack of healers is reality, and my friend has informed me that something needs to be done about this.

In order to help solve this problem, he has told me that you have been selected as one of the people that need to play a healer for future beta tests, and on in to release of the game. He has informed me that this way you will be guaranteed to have at least one healer on your team at all times, and you should always be able to at the very least, heal yourself. Depending on your skill, this could greatly change the feel of PvP, and your win/loss ratio in Rift. Undoubtedly everybody will love you, and your name will be sung in praise by bards across Telara; in turn, you may even come to love yourself.

Thank you, I hope my friend helped, and enjoy your future adventures in Telara,

~Fahros
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#19 Feb 08 2011 at 7:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I noticed that in beta 4, the starter zone rift events were dreadfully short on healers. I'd charge in with my tank build and everyone around me would be dpsing until I died. As I progressed through the levels and the zones, and especially after the addition of the public group feature, I found that I was receiving a lot more heals and usually managing to survive all but the most intense fights.

As far as healing in warfronts go, queuing solo for a warfront and expecting to get healed is like rubbing poo in your hair and expecting to get a date. It just doesn't work that way. If you want to enter warfronts with any assurance of receiving heals, group with a healer and then queue for the warfront as a party. Otherwise you take what you can get, which frequently is nothing.
#20 Feb 08 2011 at 10:02 PM Rating: Good
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Fahros wrote:
Yet1, your questions and concerns are under serious consideration by the Rift GM team.

I know a Rift dev. personally, and I have relayed your concerns along to him, because I think they're something that a lot of players are worried about. In this scenario, you really do speak for the community here. Your skepticism of this game's lack of healers is reality, and my friend has informed me that something needs to be done about this.

In order to help solve this problem, he has told me that you have been selected as one of the people that need to play a healer for future beta tests, and on in to release of the game. He has informed me that this way you will be guaranteed to have at least one healer on your team at all times, and you should always be able to at the very least, heal yourself. Depending on your skill, this could greatly change the feel of PvP, and your win/loss ratio in Rift. Undoubtedly everybody will love you, and your name will be sung in praise by bards across Telara; in turn, you may even come to love yourself.

Thank you, I hope my friend helped, and enjoy your future adventures in Telara,

~Fahros


Win. 'Nuff said.

Seriously, if you expect random people playing DPS variants of Warriors or Clerics, causing a lack of tanks/healers, at a random rift or invasion to suddenly drop what their doing and switch over to healing and tanking roles, you're nuts. Unless someone is leveling with a close group of friends, very few people will level up as a dedicated healer, because soloing is unbelievably difficult doing such. The same could be said for tanks. Especially at lower levels when they don't have access to multiple roles yet.

Personally, I will be rolling a Cleric as a main. And the very first soul I pick will be Shaman, second Warden and third Justicar. I won't be putting many points into Warden until my Shaman tree is well-developed, and I don't care how many Rogues I **** off. Because I know once I can set up a second role, it'll be a full-on healer. What will a Rogue have? Another DPS set-up most likely. Maybe a Riftstalker tank, or Bard support role.

For the first time that I've seen, the word Cleric is not synonymous with healing, considering only 3 of the 7 souls are dedicated to healing entirely.

Unless you are playing with a dedicated guild or group of friends, healers and tanks at low levels are very rare, and if you actually played other MMOs this is something you should already know, so I don't know why you're complaining. Also, you're grammar makes it almost impossible to understand anything you say.
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#21 Feb 08 2011 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Yet1, you presented your argument poorly.

But really everybody? He wasn't asking you all to throw in the towel and be pure healer/tank. This game has roles. You can even respec and queue up from a town and respec again immediately after. You can't just play a healing class in a WF for 5 minutes. You don't even have to do it every time. He was asking people to try healing or tanking once in a while. If somebody is LFG and you have a healing role or want to '***** around' maybe try out a healing role for an instance once in a while.

He may have been abrupt and failed at explaining himself but I know I personally want to play DPS to speed through but I switched to a tanking role so I could actually get into an instance. Your 'it's only a beta' argument goes both ways.
#22 Feb 08 2011 at 10:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I have tanked in many games & find this is what i love to do most. If not tanking I like to heal. i guess i want to be stressed. JK, but getting to the point. I did notice on some rifts as a tank i did not get heals, but few things to look at while at rifts in public parties. That might help you out some.

1. Sometimes while running up to rift & joining party. I did notice that the party i joined was not even there so I left rejoined till i found one that was there with me. Not every time but sometimes. so 1st look to see where your party members are make sure in the right party.

2. When coming up to a rift & there is only 5 or 6 people. Try getting into the same party this will help healers find people needing heals.I have found sometimes even with 6 people fighting a rift that there is more then one group.

3. The biggest one i seen in most or a lot of games. if you want to play rogue or dps class then that is what you are. Try not tanking the mobs, if you can not take the hits. Then QQ about healer not healing. Sometimes they are, sometimes not, doing their jobs but if they are, well most of heals are going to the tank. And should not be going to mostly dps. I have seen most sides of this & can say. If most either in rift/dungeon/evasions pull,communicate just little it will go so much smother. but this also comes with experience of playing the game. or getting the right group together for it.

Just some of my thoughts not trying to poke fun, or offend anyone in any way. But just hoping this might help out a little.
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#23 Feb 08 2011 at 11:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Danex317 wrote:
Yet1, you presented your argument poorly.

But really everybody? He wasn't asking you all to throw in the towel and be pure healer/tank. This game has roles. You can even respec and queue up from a town and respec again immediately after. You can't just play a healing class in a WF for 5 minutes. You don't even have to do it every time. He was asking people to try healing or tanking once in a while. If somebody is LFG and you have a healing role or want to '***** around' maybe try out a healing role for an instance once in a while.

He may have been abrupt and failed at explaining himself but I know I personally want to play DPS to speed through but I switched to a tanking role so I could actually get into an instance. Your 'it's only a beta' argument goes both ways.


I understand what you're saying and I just want to add a personal refinement to it. Based on my experience in the last beta, I don't want people showing up to my parties as healers just to mess around and try it. I would rather see people show up to rifts as healers and mess around and get to know their build and their abilities and get a feel for it and then once they're confident they have a handle on it, then try healing a dungeon. The way dungeons were tuned in beta six, if you're not comfortable with what you're doing you're going to be the reason for a lot of wipes. I know that as a level 34 tank in King's Breach, the troll mobs and later the undead Crusader guys hit for a metric ton of damage and there's a good chance that a decent healer is already going to run a deficit. These mobs can hit for 1/4 of a tank's HP in one shot.
#24 Feb 09 2011 at 3:01 AM Rating: Decent
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KTurner wrote:


An instant classic. Well done.
#25Yet1, Posted: Feb 09 2011 at 5:43 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) imo childish. And not because its written directly to me, but giving links like that just is. Period.
#26 Feb 09 2011 at 6:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I play a bard...He heals the raid and dps's and buffs and debuffs...what's the big deal? He may not be the best at any one aspect but he is the swiss army knife...can do it all.
#27 Feb 09 2011 at 6:17 AM Rating: Default
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Read the subject, not the last post ;)

edit bot:
Omg, right. Rogue not Rouge. I don't know rouge fitted me more and I stuck with that my bad!

Edited, Feb 9th 2011 8:31am by Yet1
#28 Feb 09 2011 at 6:23 AM Rating: Decent
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What a topic wow ...
My take .. i started rogue on defiants on cludborne (or something like that pvp shard high pop) and ended beta 6 a lvl 33 rogue ..so after i got access to pvp i went to the warfront .. so fun i thought .. Black Garden is so easy .. a 5 year old can play it .. then i realize i'm the only one running for the fang carrier .. killing fang carrier .. die after killing him and not be able to pick up the fang as me being in the middle of guardians .. this was assassins spec.

I decided it's to hard to go in up close so by the time i was .. trying to play codex .. as it looks like it was even harder for the other to get what that warfront is all about then black garden was .. (defend any one? , recap any one?, don't fight in the middle with all the basses capped by guardians any one ?) , not sure why you would rolla pvp shard if you have no ideea how to pvp oh well .. i got my infiltrator soul (pvp soul) and my second role and i was a fresh marksman: infiltrator with pet from ranger .. lots of fun untill i leveld and ended up castin with my mouse cuse my finger would go numb .. cause well when you have a top 3 dps with 25000, 30000, and 45000 and the top healer has 60000 heal 2nd place 50000 and the next 2 of them aroundf 40000 each well .. i would say there is to much heal :D

So i ended up rolling bard .. wining all my black garden well 99% because in most of them after i got the fang and forced my team to make a choke point we would won but then i die .. and from the 5 people near me .. a sole guardian comes .. picks up the fang .. and gone he was to win as we didn't get it back .. so **** there is only so much i can do .. so dudes .. you want to win .. sacrifice favor in codex and defend .. no healing? roll heal if you want to win .. and even if i force let's say .. Shojindo, Hero of Orgrimmar Guru, to heal .. if he doesn't like it or want to he won't do a good job so yuo can't force or convince any one to do it unless they want to .. i took matters in my own hands .. i finished beta 6 with assassin role 1 pve , bard role 2 pvp and guess what .. riftstalker role 3 because i needed a tank for DM and i tanked that instance twice, cleared it and i did it once with a cholomage or w/e is called .. mage healer .. awesome stuff .. so

I understand where you come from but if you go around the forum like this you do nothing, better spamm chat in-game and find yourself a party to pvp .. it's not that hard dude .. and the main issue is not that you don't have heales is that most(more like all) the dps in pvp never go after the healers .. i'm the only on trying the get them down almost all the time and alone of course i won't make it..

I purpose another fundamental debate .. i as a bard hold my ground and most of the time push forward in the middle of the enemy .. as a frigging bard cause all my dps .. guess what they run away .. :d

I mean i lost a warfront in codex because we had like 5 healers .. but the guardians won because they zerged us .. the healers .. while our dps are busy running behind me .. so guardians proved they are better and knew to kill the healers .. if a warrior gets close to me at lvl 30-35 i can be 2 shoted !! **** i was crit for 1700 ..

So .. if you lose in warfronts it doesn't mean you don't have healers .. it means, at least most of the time, that your team is just bad my friend ..

p.s. Do you know , how i know a rogue is bad .. when you don't know how to write you own class, how can i expect you to know how to play it .. its rogue my friends not rouge !!



Edited, Feb 9th 2011 7:27am by Grig87

Edited, Feb 9th 2011 7:29am by Grig87

Edited, Feb 9th 2011 7:33am by Grig87
#29 Feb 11 2011 at 7:24 PM Rating: Decent
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There is nothing more OP'd than Rouge with heels.
#30 Feb 11 2011 at 7:51 PM Rating: Default
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how bout a self healing rogue that has a pet and can teleport to gank...but wait he can also cc and do great burst rdps.....is that op?!?!
#31 Feb 12 2011 at 12:02 AM Rating: Decent
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It was meant as a joke, note the spelling

ok, it was bad, it won't happen again
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