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Flawed Soul and Rift/Invasion Mechanic?Follow

#1 Feb 19 2011 at 8:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Hi,

I'd like your opinion on two of the major game mechanics in Rift: the Soul and Rift/Invasion systems.
First considering Rift and Invasion Events:
I played beta for some time now and it appears to me that the contribution of players in an invasion or rift event is measured in much too simple ways that do not even rudimentarily recognize efficience. That means that a player, for example my healer warden, will easily receive "gold status" in contribution by simply spamming some low-cost heal-over-time-spell every global cooldown. It doesn't matter who is healed, if he needs healing or what spell I use: the contribution is exactly the same, no matter if it actually benefits your group or not. I can also spam damage-over-time spells on enemies that are going to die in a slit second anyway or I could choose a clearly and totally useless spell, like a costly instant cast healing on someone who is on top of his health. There's no difference whatsoever between efficient gameplay, knowing your class and stupid spamming. It's roughly the same for tanks and damage dealers, by the way.
This really sucks a great part of fun and rewarding game experience out of rift and invasion events. It's just plain stupid. The contribution system seems to me to be very rudimental and half-baked. What do you think?

Then considering the Soul system:
I generally like the idea of flexibility in certain situations. I was happy when WoW introduced the dual spec system. However Rift in my opinion goes way over the limit.
EVERYONE can be EVERYTHING his class could possibly offer without any cooldown, without any cost, without any restrictions. Four roles are way too much. But worse even is the fact that you can change the 3 classes of each role at any time. There's no individuality anymore, you aren't a great "raid healer" with awesome area-effect-heals but low direct healing potential. No, you are the copy of 99% of the other healers and every single one of them including you can change their specs to perfectly fit every situation you can imagine. Hot/Dot or direct effects, Crowd Control potential, area effect or single target effects (damage or healing, it doesnt matter), mobility, resilience, protection against certain enemy mechanics and so on and so on... there's no pro or contra to your character anymore because you can do and be EVERYTHING.
This is (hopefully!) not what Trion intended. But it is what they got and it sucks.
What's your opinion on the Soul system?


Now unfortunately there's little probability they will redesign these mechanics but at least they could try to greatly improve them. My suggestions would be a MUCH cleverer contribution system that will, among other things, consider:
- first and foremost, the actual use of a spell or ability for the group. Every situation has some abilities that are pretty much useless or could be exchanged for much more useful things. Attacking a single enemy with some low-damage area attack is dumb, as is healing someone who has no aggro and needs no healing.
- overhealing/damage beyond enemy hitpoints
- buffs and buff uptime
Of course, there are "grey areas" in which it is hard to measure the use of a group member correctly and in those areas they could maybe put in the current, simplistic system. But generally the contribution should reward good players much more than bad ones and that's not the case atm.
There should be a maximum of 3 roles and class changing within each role has to be strictly restricted by cooldown, cost or negative side effects.


And while this is quite a controversial topic, I'd like to thank you in advance for not flaming and for trying to actually understand my position before posting. I'm sure many of you feel the same and in any case, I'm just interested in opinions :)

So far,
Eronaile

Edited, Feb 19th 2011 9:15am by Eronaile
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#2 Feb 19 2011 at 10:08 AM Rating: Excellent
People worry to much. Don't worry. Be Happy.

I know everyone wants to predict the future of the game. Dissect it down to the code. Run around in a panic yelling fire when they see something they don't agree with.

I'm saying instead, just play the game. Play it while its fun. Then don't when its not.

When your hungry eat. When your tired sleep.
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#3 Feb 19 2011 at 10:09 AM Rating: Decent
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None of the things you've mentioned strike me as being all that significant. People will always find a way to take the cheeseball route. If that means spamming abilities that don't make much difference to jack up their contribution at a rift/invasion, then that's what they'll do. If that's not an option, they'll find something else. Personally, I prefer to do things the "right" way. I don't show up to rifts and invasions with my eyes glued to the contribution meter. I'm there to kill baddies and have fun.

As for the soul system allowing you to take maximum advantage of your calling, I don't really see that as being an issue, either. If you've got four roles to choose from and a different build for each role and you want to take the time to become proficient with each of those builds, more power to you. You can't change roles in combat, and the sheer administrative hassle of having a raid leader try to reallocate roles amongst the raid group means that at endgame, you're not likely going to be using more than maybe two rolls on a regular basis. For solo play, that's where the soul system truly shines because you can do whatever the **** you want and mess around and experiment. For 5-man content, having the option to tailor your build to different situations is an asset. If anything, more people complain about pigeonholing than diversity. I like the idea that I can have a physical tank build, a magic tank build, a mixed tank build, and a solo or PvP build and adjust to any given situation quickly and easily.
#4 Feb 19 2011 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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I can see your specific problem with the soul system. But just because everybody CAN be everything doesn't mean they want to be. You can still be a great raid healer if you are a great raid healer. Just because you CAN switch to DPS if they need it doesn't take away from your healing ability. And also every healing/DPS/Tank spec is different. That's the beauty of the soul system. There isn't only one or two viable specs for each. There are dozens. Some have minor differences but that's still more than other games has had to offer.

And I actually never look at the contribution bar. It is kind of a mystery to me. I go to rifts and kill things. I see how it would be a problem if those healers were STEALING my loot but my loot is not effected by their loot. I can see how it is flawed but it is not taking the fun out of anybody elses play.
#5 Feb 19 2011 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, your loot IS affected by theirs in a sense. Since mentioned spamming methods define the "peak performance" in an event, everyone is measured on that scale, including you. Your loot would actually be better with a cleverer system since spammers would receive much less contribution, thus bringing YOU as an efficient/good player to a much better contribution status. It's all about relative values, really. You are compared by the system to your group members.

I can partially understand the view of the first 2 answers to my post. There are players that are not interested in game mechanic but just in the game itself. Nevertheless, doesn't it p*** you off when someone worse than you gets a much better reward? Is that fun to you? The system punishes mana-conserving, for example. Most of the time, you would not normally heal every global cooldown because, quite frankly, no event needs so much healing [exceptions apply rarely]. But the system rewards you for going "out of mana" quickly and using skills when they are not needed... what nonsense, wouldn't you agree? Similar patterns for DDs/Tanks only I never played those so I won't go into detail there.

And the soul system does not only allow 4 roles but also changing your 3 classes of every single role between every fight, if you wish so. You are right in saying that players still like one role (DD, healer or tank) best but making it even possible to fit to every situation is a great strain on difficulty. I'm really interested in how Trion is going to make dungeon and raid bosses interesting with this Soul System in place... I'm one of those poor fellows who thinks that easy doesn't mean fun. I'm not interested in a non-challenging game experience and that's what we'll get with this spec mechanic in place, mark my words.

Is someone feeling the same?
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#6 Feb 19 2011 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
Nevertheless, doesn't it p*** you off when someone worse than you gets a much better reward? Is that fun to you?


Does it **** me off? Not at all. I'm not worried about what the other guy got. I'm just enjoying the fact that I was there kicken *** and having fun being good.

Its like scoreboards in WF's. You can be that guy who runs away unless they have a zerg pack. Watches his total damage and kills to death ratio like a hawk. Then faps to the scoreboard after even though his team lost becuase he was not trying for the goals of the warfront. Or you can take satisfaction in knowing even though it caused you to die more you sacrificed and contributed more strategically to the game and helped your team actually win.

As for the game mechanic of how loot is distributed in Rifts it has been adjusted several times. At one time there were many QQ threads about healers not getting much for actually healing so they just DPS'ed. Now maybe the swing is the other way. But Trion will adjust it until a happy balance is achieved. The game is young.

And to directly respond about the soul mechanic. The complexity of it is staggering. Which to me is fantastic. In the last MMO I played they decided to pigeon hole talent specs into one tree for most of your points becuase of endless balance QQ. It's dull as dishwater now.

I'd much rather see the possibility of great complexity that rift offers. And I still think people will be masters of their favorite roll. While being able to play relatively competently in off roles. Thats just human nature. In my case I shine as DPS, I can sqeak every last drop out of DPS classes and usually am top on DPS in games that are metered. Its more engaging to me. Therefore I put more into it and do well in that aspect.

I am merely competent as a healer or tank.

But as I said in my original response its simply not worth the anxiety to worry to much about these things so early in the game. :)

I'm just going to enjoy the ride for a while.

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A frog jumps into the pond,
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#7 Feb 19 2011 at 11:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Eronaile wrote:
Well, your loot IS affected by theirs in a sense. Since mentioned spamming methods define the "peak performance" in an event, everyone is measured on that scale, including you. Your loot would actually be better with a cleverer system since spammers would receive much less contribution, thus bringing YOU as an efficient/good player to a much better contribution status. It's all about relative values, really. You are compared by the system to your group members.

I can partially understand the view of the first 2 answers to my post. There are players that are not interested in game mechanic but just in the game itself. Nevertheless, doesn't it p*** you off when someone worse than you gets a much better reward? Is that fun to you? The system punishes mana-conserving, for example. Most of the time, you would not normally heal every global cooldown because, quite frankly, no event needs so much healing [exceptions apply rarely]. But the system rewards you for going "out of mana" quickly and using skills when they are not needed... what nonsense, wouldn't you agree? Similar patterns for DDs/Tanks only I never played those so I won't go into detail there.


I think it's easy to get trapped into the idealistic mentality of things that "should" be a certain way when in reality, implementing them that way would not be nearly so simple or straightforward as you might want to believe.

And the patterns for dps/tanks are not similar. Healing is the exception, and has to be the exception because if you show up to a rift or an invasion that's already loaded down with healers and you've got nobody to heal, what then? You dps. And if you've decided to create a build for yourself that sacrifices dps for better healing and the system is tuned to reward you based on damage done, then you're really screwed.

Think it through. Stop and consider what you're really asking for. I think you'll find that the current system, while not perfect, is certainly adequate.

Quote:
And the soul system does not only allow 4 roles but also changing your 3 classes of every single role between every fight, if you wish so. You are right in saying that players still like one role (DD, healer or tank) best but making it even possible to fit to every situation is a great strain on difficulty. I'm really interested in how Trion is going to make dungeon and raid bosses interesting with this Soul System in place... I'm one of those poor fellows who thinks that easy doesn't mean fun. I'm not interested in a non-challenging game experience and that's what we'll get with this spec mechanic in place, mark my words.


I think you're reaching. In any given raid encounter you will have to have a tank (or tanks) that can soak a certain amount of damage. You will have to have healers who can heal through that damage. You will have to also have healers who can heal through raid damage, and whatever players are left over after all that is assigned have to be able to do enough damage to down the target(s) before the healers go OOM or you hit an enrage timer (if Trion decides to use enrage timers, which I expect they will from time to time.) For 10-man Rift raids, you will have to be able to clear stages in a timely fashion to advance to the higher stages, just like with the rifts we see now. I'm not quite sure where you're getting the idea that being able to change roles between encounters will make things too easy.
#8 Feb 19 2011 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, think it through. In any other MMO you would have in a raid some players that can mass control efficiently, some who can tank groups exceptionally well, others who are better in single target tanking, some healers with great area spells, some with great direct healing, some players who are proficient at supporting with anti-cc and utility spells... and so on.
That leads to a situation where your raid group is never ever completely attuned to an encounter. The efficiency of all players depends on the situation, e.g. the enemies' abilities, attributes and mechanics. This is especially true for boss encounters.
In Rift your whole raid will switch to a near-perfect spec within 2 seconds and everyone will fight with the ultimative choice of skills and other factors (like mobility and resilience to certain effects).
See my point?
You are right in pointing out that the 4 main classes are still distinct but in doing what they're meant to do they can reach (near) perfect results for any given encounter.
There are of course other factors like equipment quality and "player skill" but my point is that challenge is severely reduced by everyones ability to perfectly adapt to encounters.

And let me give just a very very simple example of how the contribution system could be improved. Don't let healers loose contribution for "not doing anything" when everyone's almost at top health, like, at 90% or above. Currently the only "efficient" solution to the mechanics' misbehaviour is dealing damage in such situations. Well, I'm fine with that but I know a lot of players who wouldn't think that as being part of a healers job description except in rare circumstances.
But I'd be interested in how it works for tanks and damage dealers. I certainly had the impression that spammers with little actual thought behind their actions get top contribution with those roles as well. Maybe someone could update me?


Now you could argue that Rift isn't even released yet and that Trion could adapt those things over time. Certainly that's a point to consider but unfortunately there was a pretty reliable rule in all those recent wanna-be MMOs that in the time after release there would be no mechanic changes but just content updates (if at all). I'm afraid that Rift will be killed by interesting content plagued with unfair or plainly bad game mechanic. It's a great game in other respects :|

Edited, Feb 19th 2011 2:43pm by Eronaile
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#9 Feb 19 2011 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Eronaile wrote:
Well, think it through. In any other MMO you would have in a raid some players that can mass control efficiently, some who can tank groups exceptionally well, others who are better in single target tanking, some healers with great area spells, some with great direct healing, some players who are proficient at supporting with anti-cc and utility spells... and so on.
That leads to a situation where your raid group is never ever completely attuned to an encounter. The efficiency of all players depends on the situation, e.g. the enemies' abilities, attributes and mechanics. This is especially true for boss encounters.
In Rift your whole raid will switch to a near-perfect spec within 2 seconds and everyone will fight with the ultimative choice of skills and other factors (like mobility and resilience to certain effects).
See my point?
You are right in pointing out that the 4 main classes are still distinct but in doing what they're meant to do they can reach (near) perfect results for any given encounter.
There are of course other factors like equipment quality and "player skill" but my point is that challenge is severely reduced by everyones ability to perfectly adapt to encounters.


I don't see your point, but I see your assumption. I also don't see any benefit to furthering this particular discussion because your "concerns" are based 100% on negative speculation and hypothesis. Just play the game.

Quote:
And let me give just a very very simple example of how the contribution system could be improved. Don't let healers loose contribution for "not doing anything" when everyone's almost at top health, like, at 90% or above. Currently the only "efficient" solution to the mechanics' misbehaviour is dealing damage in such situations. Well, I'm fine with that but I know a lot of players who wouldn't think that as being part of a healers job description except in rare circumstances.
But I'd be interested in how it works for tanks and damage dealers. I certainly had the impression that spammers with little actual thought behind their actions get top contribution with those roles as well. Maybe someone could update me?

Maybe I'm a bit too demanding considering a release version but still...


Again...just play the game. Really. You're overthinking the **** out of this and all you're really doing is proving my point, not yours. You're complaining that people don't have to do anything particularly effective in order to earn contribution at a rift or invasion. And then one of your solutions is to make it so that if everyone is topped up, you don't have to do anything in order to preserve your contribution. You're making at least one assumption: that contribution is scalar and has a cap. What if it's linear? What if, when your contribution bar is going down it doesn't mean that you're losing contribution so much as you aren't gaining it as fast as everyone else? So your solution is basically one where you could show up to an rift or invasion, lob a heal bomb on someone that bumps up your contribution and if 4 other healers show up and keep everyone alive while you stand around, your one action is enough to keep you sitting pretty.

With so many different abilities across so many different soul mechanics, the goal is to show up and do something. Anything. It doesn't matter and it shouldn't matter. Are there going to be people who show up and go out of their way to get the most possible contribution for the least possible effort? Absolutely. Does it mean I can't show up and smash targets of opportunity and have fun? No. Don't worry so much about how other people can game the system and just enjoy the game for what you do. That's all you need to do. And if it should ever come to pass that widespread abuse of the contribution system is putting undue strain on the people who are actually trying to defeat the encounters, then worry about it.

Getting all wound up over what might happen is the sure path to misery and frustration. Address it when it's a real issue, not when you spot it as a potential issue. It's Trion's job to try and identify and address potential issues, not yours.
#10 Feb 19 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Eronaile wrote:

Then considering the Soul system:
I generally like the idea of flexibility in certain situations. I was happy when WoW introduced the dual spec system. However Rift in my opinion goes way over the limit.
EVERYONE can be EVERYTHING his class could possibly offer without any cooldown, without any cost, without any restrictions. Four roles are way too much. But worse even is the fact that you can change the 3 classes of each role at any time. There's no individuality anymore, you aren't a great "raid healer" with awesome area-effect-heals but low direct healing potential. No, you are the copy of 99% of the other healers and every single one of them including you can change their specs to perfectly fit every situation you can imagine. Hot/Dot or direct effects, Crowd Control potential, area effect or single target effects (damage or healing, it doesnt matter), mobility, resilience, protection against certain enemy mechanics and so on and so on... there's no pro or contra to your character anymore because you can do and be EVERYTHING.
This is (hopefully!) not what Trion intended. But it is what they got and it sucks.
What's your opinion on the Soul system?


I can see where this can concern people but for me it works perfectly into what ive been wanting out of an MMO. I want to have one character i focus my time on, and not have to lvl 5 different alts, and generally i always like the play mage classes. However im not going to be switching form Pyro, to Necro, to Warlock every other encounter in a raid.

The way my playstyle fits me is this:
Raid/Dungeons: Pyro with min/max subs - I like the big number nuking class for pure PvE organized group content. Been the same from FFXI, WoW, Aion ect.
Soloing: Pyro with Elementalist and Chrono sub - Still nuking just with a pet to tank and the option to heal myself.
PvP: Warlock - In PvP i wanna throw dots on people and siphon my life back.

And then there the even more flexibility of subbing any of the other souls to do whatever i could want. As that only takes up 3 of the 4 "specs" your allowed, ill probably add anonther in for fun. So i dont see this as a problem where people are going to be switching all the time. Where you said people wont know as you as a great raid-healer or such, i still think people will fall into their normal "roles" in raids that they will become known for, if they do it the best thats probably what they will want to play. I think thats what they were hoping people would take out of how flexible the system is, to make it fun, while giving the option to make some encounters easier rather than switching up for every boss depending on its mechanics.



Edited, Feb 19th 2011 3:26pm by Zidaga
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#11 Feb 19 2011 at 9:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Point one: I tend to agree. It should be fairly easy to somewhat limit this kind of thing. For instance if someone is being healed who is at full health, the healer shouldn't get any "points" towards helping close the rift. However, the system as it is now is hardly broken; It just needs some fine tuning.

Point two: At some point in the very near future, people will figure out what "the build" is and you'll see carbon copies of that everywhere. Like it or not, the most hard core players WILL break down the math and figure out how to get the best DPS (or HPS) and whatever build allows it WILL be the build of choice.

As such, we'll probably see builds depending on what the build is used for. ie You'll have three builds for each class: Solo PvE, Group PvE, and PvP. There may also be a fourth "end game raid build" which doesn't quite conform to the other three.

Currently, players can freely change between these builds at will. If we were to change that, what would we change it to? A cool down? Generally NOT a fun idea. "Oh, sorry, I just switched to my Solo PvE build. I won't be as productive in a raid now." Unless the cool down is excessively short (on the order of two to five minutes), this becomes quite burdensome to the player.

If we had it cost money instead, it may be a better idea. However, we'd have to be careful not to make it so that only the rich can afford to change their souls at will. Also, we'd need to make sure that we're not taking more money out of the game than is going in. No one likes inflation, but deflation ruins economies much much quicker.

While I understand where you're coming from, I think the current system of letting players change souls at no cost (in money time or anything else) works and works fairly well. If it becomes evident that its abusive, some form of cost will be added to get rid of the abuse.
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#12 Feb 19 2011 at 10:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I think you're largely correct about the Rift mechanic being broken, but I'm not entirely sure what the problem is.

First, I noticed that scoring on the leader board seemed to be in huge intervals of points, and that you could only have these discrete quantities. I forget the exact amount, but I believe it was in multiples of 1,000 points, with the top scorer easily being under 15k. It made it difficult to discern what actions the game was actually awarding me points for.

I'm sure it has other numerous scoring problems, but I can't tell because I have no clue how much each action awards me.
Eronaile wrote:
EVERYONE can be EVERYTHING his class could possibly offer without any cooldown, without any cost, without any restrictions. Four roles are way too much. But worse even is the fact that you can change the 3 classes of each role at any time. There's no individuality anymore, you aren't a great "raid healer" with awesome area-effect-heals but low direct healing potential. No, you are the copy of 99% of the other healers and every single one of them including you can change their specs to perfectly fit every situation you can imagine.

Not at all.

You seem to be completely ignoring that you can't respec during combat. It's the exact same situation as FFXI, FFXIV, WoW, and quite a few other games. When WoW implemented Dual specs it didn't allow Paladins to simultaneously be DPS, Healers, and Tanks. They had to choose between them, but now instead of running back to a city every time they need to switch from PvE to PvP, they can do it conveniently for free.

That's all it is, eliminating the hassle and annoyance of having to wait 15 minutes and pay tons of gold everytime you need to do anything else. It in no way allows you to do everything at once.
Eronaile wrote:
And while this is quite a controversial topic, I'd like to thank you in advance for not flaming and for trying to actually understand my position before posting. I'm sure many of you feel the same and in any case, I'm just interested in opinions :)

I understand why you might feel it necessary to post such a warning, but it really is an insult to us to even ask that you not be flamed. This isn't the WoW O-boards; we're above that.
#13 Feb 20 2011 at 9:02 AM Rating: Good
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Contribution was a problem in warhammer, and is a problem now .. kind of. I think it's hard to get it fair, from a programming perspective. It's the same issue in Warfronts. I noticed that my Cleric is usually in the top 3 favor received in every match i play. Healing seems to score high on the contribution meter.
This doesn't really bother me though. I think most people want their healers to be well equipped.
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#14 Feb 20 2011 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Having four roles does not mean you're able to do everything... each class has 9 souls (8 normal and 1 pvp) that means that each class can have up to 84 different souls combos and you get to pick 4. If my math is right that means that there are still 80 combos left. Also you can point out that 6 people with the same 3 souls can have 6 very different specs, key word VERY.

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 11:05pm by oonsar
#15 Feb 20 2011 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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You forget that it is possible between each fight to change your 3 classes, no matter what role you have chosen. Instead of Warden/Inquisitor/Purifier you could go Sentinel/Justicar/Druid for example, which also includes other amounts of soul points spent, of course. The number of combinations of 8 available classes in each class slot is stunning, even if some of them don't make great sense no matter the situation. And that's for ONE Role. In your second, third and fourth role you can do the very same but with totally different specs for each class combination.
In your first role for example, you could have a warden/inqui/puri combination with lots of points in warden and some in inqui/puri, in your second role it could be the same combination with lots of points in purifier and none in warden.
So in conclusion for each and every combination of 3 classes - and as I mentioned before there are LOTS of them - you can have 4 different specs (soul point patterns).

Anyway, I pre-ordered today because independantly from the possible impact of these flaws [my view], Rift will surely be fun for 2 or 3 months, at least more fun than WoW is currently ^^

We'll see...
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#16 Feb 20 2011 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Eronaile wrote:
You forget that it is possible between each fight to change your 3 classes, no matter what role you have chosen. Instead of Warden/Inquisitor/Purifier you could go Sentinel/Justicar/Druid for example, which also includes other amounts of soul points spent, of course. The number of combinations of 8 available classes in each class slot is stunning, even if some of them don't make great sense no matter the situation. And that's for ONE Role. In your second, third and fourth role you can do the very same but with totally different specs for each class combination.
In your first role for example, you could have a warden/inqui/puri combination with lots of points in warden and some in inqui/puri, in your second role it could be the same combination with lots of points in purifier and none in warden.
So in conclusion for each and every combination of 3 classes - and as I mentioned before there are LOTS of them - you can have 4 different specs (soul point patterns).

Anyway, I pre-ordered today because independantly from the possible impact of these flaws [my view], Rift will surely be fun for 2 or 3 months, at least more fun than WoW is currently ^^

We'll see...


I think there's a disconnect here between what you're trying to say and what you're actually saying. Either that, or you're mistaken.

Based on what you said in that post and in previous posts in this thread, you're under the impression that you can change your spec for a particular role on the fly. You can't. You have to visit a trainer and pay to have your role(s) reset before you can change souls and/or adjust how you've spent your points. The only exception to this is if you've got a calling equipped to a role that you haven't spent any points in. So if you've got a warden/inquisitor/purifier build with no points spent in purifier, you can switch out purifier for any other soul you have access to but as soon as you spend any points in a soul and click "Save and Exit", you have to pay to have that role reset if you want to remove or change point distribution for that soul.

And what that means is that you may have 4 different roles that all fulfill different responsibilities within a group, but you're still not going to be all things at all times and there still has to be appropriate raid balance in order for the raid group to be viable. Using your cleric example, you could have a tank role, a dps role, a support healer role and a main tank healer role. This is a benefit to raid groups who can tailor the raid to specific encounters without having to swap players in and out. For raid trash, maybe 2 tanks and 3 healers is plenty and you can have the other 15 players as dps/support to speed up the trip from boss to boss and then when it's time to fight the boss, maybe you need 3 tanks and 5 healers to be truly viable.

There's a difference between something being easy and a group using the tools available to them in order to make something easier. The 4 role system with all the diversity it entails will heavily favor top-end guilds who will expect their raiders to be highly proficient in a number of roles in order to secure a raid spot. Telling Bob who has done nothing but dps his entire time in the game to suddenly go healer and expect top-notch performance out of him is the sure way to wipe a raid.

When I raided in WoW prior to the dual spec feature being added, it was very common to send people off to respec either before a raid or midway through a raid, and this could be done for a variety of reasons. Maybe one of our core people couldn't make it that night, or disconnected and couldn't get back on. Maybe we were working on a progression encounter and adding a healer smoothed out the encounter, or dropping a healer brought in just enough extra dps to squeeze out a win. And when the dual spec feature was added, what it meant to us is that making those transitions was a **** of a lot faster. Instead of having to send someone back to a trainer to respec and reset action bars and all that other stuff and then summon them back, they'd swap specs and we were good to go. No matter how you look at it, diversity is always an asset to a raid.

personally, I plan to have up to three tank roles and a solo/PvP role. That will allow me to tailor my mitigation to the encounter without having to hold up the group. Which is good for me, because main tanks tend to be territorial by nature and I'm not too keen on being relegated to backup tank on my pally because the VK tank waiting outside the raid instance is a better choice for a particular encounter.
#17 Feb 20 2011 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
9 posts
It's interesting Eronaile that what you see as a flaw I see as a great strength in the game. What is the problem with people fine-tuning their abilities and characters to particular encounters? Do you fear it will make the game too easy? I am so excited to be able to log in and have 10 people on and be able to raid a 10man no matter what. Someone will be able to switch to tank. Someone will be able to switch to heal. It gives great flexibility in your player base. And for the higher end content, really elite guilds... you will still need people to be a little bit static. Why? Because gear makes a huge difference as you get deeper and deeper into the end game.

#18 Feb 20 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
Teneleven wrote:
Contribution was a problem in warhammer, and is a problem now .. kind of. I think it's hard to get it fair, from a programming perspective. It's the same issue in Warfronts. I noticed that my Cleric is usually in the top 3 favor received in every match i play. Healing seems to score high on the contribution meter.
This doesn't really bother me though. I think most people want their healers to be well equipped.


That's really odd, since there are a bunch of threads on Rift's forums stating the opposite problem.
I've been healing rifts and noticed that about all I ever get as a reward is a rock. Or two.
And believe me, I'm healing to the point of OOM.
I think people are saying that HoTs only count when you first apply them - not when they tick.
I have to be purposefully inefficient to "score" higher.

Now, for the most part, I'm just playing the game and having fun, but...it DOES bother me that this "great way to get loot" is so flawed that it's difficult for an efficient HoT healer to get rewards.

I've noticed that when I use direct heals and when I overheal, I tend to "score" higher and get better rewards. Also, when I DPS instead and just throw out healing flood, I tend to rank higher as well. Unfortunately, I only have one real direct heal at the moment, and it's on a cooldown (healing breath - 8 second cooldown - from the sentinel soul).

So basically, a Warden that is HoT-based (which is me) will typically score lower and will receive worse rewards. :(

-T.

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#19 Feb 20 2011 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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Ok I think I misunderstood some part of the soul system. I thought u can switch your 3 classes at any time, no matter how many points are spent. That's wrong. Ok, makes the whole system a good deal more realistic and greatly reduced the flaw I see there. Still, 4 roles is a bit much imho.

Concerning Rift Mechanic: as a warden you can simply spam some HoT, no matter on whom and receive gold status easily. Just don't wait, use every global cooldown. Of course this is highly inefficient, except when every heal you cast actually has a use and that won't be the case on many GCDs. Alternatively, use some damage spell when noone needs your healing for the moment. Still, this is only a workaround to fight "efficiently" but doesn't mean the system is working right. It is working wrong.

On a sidenote, I like your style guys. This is probably the most objective, mature forum community I ever encountered (in a game forum), at least based on this single post ^^


Edited, Feb 20th 2011 3:42pm by Eronaile
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#20 Feb 20 2011 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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Eronaile wrote:
On a sidenote, I like your style guys. This is probably the most objective, mature forum community I ever encountered (in a game forum), at least based on this single post ^^


ZAM has a great community, thats why i generally read here and post on occasion, when compared to official forums, mmo champ, or others you mostly get very mature posts and conversations. People aren't one sided and are open to other views.
i <3 zam.

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 4:54pm by Zidaga
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#21 Feb 20 2011 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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The forums are pretty much the main reason to use ZAN over any other MMORPG site. While I'll give the Rift team props for having such an excellent Soul Builder and also doing a fairly nice job on the wiki, usually the Zam sites tend to be behind the curve on specific tools.
#22 Feb 20 2011 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
13 posts
Yeah I just can't agree with most of that. Yeah there is a problem with the contribution/reward system on rifts and invasions. Spamming instant casts of any kind will rocket you to top. Where as anything casting 1 sec + will hurt you. (IE long cast hurt) they will work it out im sure.

As far as Souls...no way I would want that changed. I understand completely where your coming from but; It allows so much freedom and flexibility. Most people that think like you simply wont make use of that system. But it gives everyone else the freedom to do so which is important. It effects nothing with raiding and skill... I mean how great your are depends on your skill as a healer. I\And for those people that play a class and end up not liking it or find a change needed for some reason (nerfs/ bordem etc) can switch instead of re rolling and falling behind all there friends and guild. You have less people rolling alts working to raid cap then rolling on things you need. It solves tons of things imo. I really don't see how it hurts anything because its one of the big deals about this game. Many people can now play much fewer toons and waste much less time. Solutions to not abusing system (although I would hate it) is give the souls specific end game gear; this way switching around at raiding lvls will be discouraged.. I just don't know. Its a major part of rift and at this point worrying about it for good or bad is a waste of time; changing it would change the entire game. (sure it wouldn't from your view point; it be a god thing. But not to the player base.) Trion just doesn't do that. I like changing spec in emergency between a fight w/o suddenly losing all my mana. It really doesn't hurt anything. Dont like it don't use it; simple as that. Andy thing more and its just coming down to LeeT egos.
#23 Feb 21 2011 at 12:06 AM Rating: Decent
13 posts
4 is not to much; cant really abuse it (majority wise) at lower lvls w/o sacrificing mount money and gear, crafting etc.
Tbh Ive played to cap on 3 diff archetypes. I tried to make four roles work on my rogue for example; but couldn't... I always end up only using 2. Well I could go three but only for pvp. It just isnt to much its simply there for the people that can make use of it. Examples... Tank: ST MT, AoE Tank, Anti Magic Tank, Pvp Build/ or a dps build.
Mage: Pyro (fire not cutting it) > something else. Or an AoE build vs ST then a pvp.
DS in wow was a great addition, but as MT I still had to switch a lot. I actually hoped for a 3rd just for pvp. I always had to waste gold; more then needed just for that. This is part of the depth of the class builds that i think are getting missed. I mean there saying I can BE a Ranger that can shoot OR melee... To do so fluently id need to switch roles. At the cost of losing the range full potential..At any one time you can have both. (So its def not cheating).
The system is build for people to play HOW they want and does it well. I could for example go for a good range/melee build; but then i lose my 31pt raptor. I still want my raptor for solo or if im needed more for range at the time.. so bam switch. Again a few people complain about either to many roles or the soul switching bothers them..then dont play.
This system if you look at it fits so many different play types. The only ones ******** about something being to much is someone afraid of losing there exclusivity...which not everyone sits in there moms basement playing 24/7. And the ones that do; this doesn't hurt you at all; skill will still be needed.
#24 Feb 21 2011 at 1:08 AM Rating: Decent
13 posts
Also in defense of the number of roles I forgot to mention. U pretty much if anything will have enough room for 2 pve roles for sure. Thing is if u pvp u need another..then you will need a forth for the novelty souls they will be releasing. Of which im sure 2 slots will be used for that alone by people that like such things and roleplayers
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