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#1 Mar 10 2011 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
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I've been seeing people post some questionable math and conjectures about raid/dungeon healing, and I would like to put my two sense in to see if anyone is fallowing the same train of thought.

PRIMARY GOAL- just so everyone is fallowing what I'm trying to prove or accomplish:

I want to do the most healing I can do since I want to fill a healing spot. As chloro I want to do this with LIFE damage. SO, I will not be focusing on buffing other forms of damage unless it also buffs life dmg or is very substantial for very little talent point cost.

Secondary considerations are increasing damage that increases healing by less. (aoe being a prime example as the coefficient can wreck healing in most situations. )

THIRD- Increasing utility (cc and party buffs), but not at the cost of the first two.


Basic Spec- rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0zRzv.EdIuoAc0o..xx0G0VVx

I would by all means not use this in all situations. But I believe this is the greatest build for sustained healing.

Soul Choices-

I see a lot of people saying that they want to pair with high Archon because of the utility it brings. I first want to say that by all means Archon is great for a raid; however, I feel, as a healer, you waste far to much time with Archon spells reducing you healing during those times to unacceptable levels. I'm sure you would notice quickly that you would be dropping buffs and not having the 100% uptime that makes this soul attractive, AND would be missing spikes on the tank.

So, I choose warlock for a number of reason. First and foremost, this soul removes almost all consideration of sustained mana regen. I know most will say that the gcd can sometimes get in the way but I feel there will always be the downtime you need or spare gcd to invalidate the argument for Archon's passive and burst mana regen.
Secondy, Lock brings huge passive and active damage talents that mesh perfectly with Life dmg (see primary goal). As no other tree can replicate it these two ideas alone secure the soul slot. However, warlock also brings some utility to the raid in the form of cc and a raid buff (Fear and Neddra's Might) adding a juicy plus to the choice.

Lastly, I am utterly confused at people's third choice. I suppose the three viable choices are Dominator, ES, and Archon. People are choosing Dominator for the the CC which i think is foolish even in 5 mans (even more so in raids) when you consider what you loose vs. the other souls and that the likelihood your CC will be direly needed is very small. The next choice would be ES, then. People choose this build and place 5 points in the crit talent. This thought is not terrible, but I feel you are wasting far to many talents for the benefit. I feel going with Archon with no points, giving you 40 to all stats at a 100% uptime for negligible effort. Obviously 5% is better than 40 stats in epic gear and will only continue to scale, but the five talent points are not worth it at the current raid tier.


AND

TALENT DISCUSION
So if you are with me so far and have decided on a heavy chloro/lock build lets talk about talent choices since there tends to be controversy.

First, will discuss lock since there seems to be much less confusion. The main confusion comes from the taking 3rdT NI or to max out Vitality. From current testing it looks like NI doesn't buff Chloro's 2rdT NC, which means this gives us no dps increase in a healing rotation because the dot is calculated from nukes damage done apparently. So of course taking Vitality would be much better over the options in a healing setting. HOWEVER, I feel this is a bug and urge everyone to report it. Though it would increase healing by a very small amount (dots give healing only based on the first tick and have a lower coefficient) it would be a great dps increase for talents in a tier that is mandatory (depending on how calc'd would be anywhere from 3-10% since the dot doesn't roll but resets on application)

OK now that that is out of the way lets get to the meat of healing. I want to talk about 5 talents that seem to be on the cusp of inclusion in some peoples minds: Circle of Life, Raised in Nature, Living Shell, Destructive Growth, and Essence Surge.

Circle of Life- I definitely agree with most people here. The bonus to ur direct heals is nice, but with the amount of time you end up casting them, the CD, and the inherent loss in dps by casting them anytime it wouldn't save a raid member vs. a dmg spell; makes this a lackluster talent. Yes, they heal for lots, but they don't damage, and ONLY HEAL THERE TARGET, whereas the direct heals won't even heal the synth
toon.

Raised in Nature- I'm confused at some peoples choice because they take 10 points in T1, but say that RiN isn't worth it. Firstly, on the talent alone RiN out values Natural Awareness by over 50% in INT ALONE! not even considering the health benefits. So why not drop 3 points out of your t1 to take RiN if you are going to put 10 in anyways? But the real question is what if you put only 5 points in t1? Making a long story short, the dps benefits of RiN outweighs AG by a lot point for point.

Living Shell- No one seems to want this spell? I can see that mana doesn't seem to be a problem, but i feel having a mana dot would clear up any of those times you are running short on GCD. Plus I feel its a wash when you use it for survivability.

Destructive Growth- The controversy on taking this or not seems to be 2 pronged. One is not being close enough to the boss to apply the dmg buff, which is valid. The second is that the points could be used elsewhere. However, I feel that in most situations I creep in/out to the boss on GCD of instants based on boss abilities making this and corrosion great dps gains ESPECIALLY in AOE situations. I think this makes the talents an extremely valuable talent in terms of dps (even in single target situations to be honest) with such a short CD.

Essence Surge- I was with many of you guys when I saw that our damage would be hit with this spell use AND that it would only heal your health not the tanks. But after talking to some players about it we've decided, that in conjunction with our BR and needing to rebuff synth plus the using Bloom and Nourish the downfalls of the ability can be negated in some catastrophic situations.

Thanks for any of you guys that made it through my post. Please be aware I am strong in math and physics, BUT almost invariably fail when it comes to English and the written language. So besides any inconsistencies you might find in my game theory please help out with syntax and grammar if you can to cut down this eye sore into something that might be usable by more mage's.

Again please thought-out rebuttal is highly encouraged, got teh thick skin.
#2 Mar 10 2011 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
7 posts
I understand that the spec I HL'd does not fallow some of my advice and thoughts. That is what I would use in 5man situations where sac: life GCD concern aren't important. I would take Neddra's Embrace and Destructive growth and empathic bond or living shell, in progress raiding.
#3 Mar 10 2011 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
1 post
Fallow = follow :)

Myself, I see the main appeal of being a Mage/Healer as centered around our ability to heal the MT exceedingly well. We can heal a raid passably well depending on your ability choices. My dedicated healer spec Mage focuses on MT and self survivability in that role.

I took Dominator as a soul and I'll give a few reasons why.

1) The ability to take one thing out of the fight cannot be discounted. The raid taking no damage is better than healing damage. Always.

2) Mitigation is as good as healing and excels at diluting spike damage. If you know, for instance, that the next encounter has a nasty alpha strike in the form of a spell from a boss, Reflective command is a very good alternative to healing that same amount of damage.

3) Removing poisons, curses and diseases is preferable to healing the damage they may give during the life of the debuff.

4) The ability to wipe 80% of aggro is a healers dream, and often necessary to survive boss fights with copious amounts of yard trash.

5) The ability to silence multiple casters is worth it's weight in gold, and can mitigate a fair amount of damage in a raid.

I understand your premise, but as I've pointed out, sometimes healing is not the best way to keep your raid upright. The utility to help in most situations while filling your primary role, keeping the team alive as they do what they specialize in, be that DPS, TANKING or off tank/off heal is the only goal. Every tool you have to fulfill that goal is viable and welcome. If they are available and don't hinder your healing ability at all, well, that's just gravy.
#4 Mar 10 2011 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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Im not sure I can get behind the thought of using Archon at all. even for 0pt. Id prefer the situational CC over having to keep up 5 stacks of pillaging stone.
#5 Mar 10 2011 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
7 posts
Are you guys saying in your raids that your RL is having healers CC and not ranged dps?
#6 Mar 10 2011 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
7 posts
Also boss mobs are not sub to any cc like stuns and silences.

In terms of 3. I suppose you are talking about deny? in the dom soul? If it was multi target then that would def be something, but I don't see it because useful since its on such a long CD and doesn't make it much if any better than the one u already have in Chloro.

Edited, Mar 10th 2011 3:35pm by MerricBLGC
#7 Mar 10 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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your entire discussion is contradictory.

you wrote:
THIRD- Increasing utility (cc and party buffs), but not at the cost of the first two.
and then say
Quote:
Are you guys saying in your raids that your RL is having healers CC and not ranged dps?


you wrote:
I see a lot of people saying that they want to pair with high Archon because of the utility it brings. I first want to say that by all means Archon is great for a raid; however, I feel, as a healer, you waste far to much time with Archon spells reducing you healing during those times to unacceptable levels.


Then go on to imply you can squeeze in 5 casts of pillaging stone in a fight, mess with warlock sac-life:mana and still heal ok. (i definitely agree with warlock as a secondary for at the very least sac-life:mana).

#8 Mar 10 2011 at 5:31 PM Rating: Decent
7 posts
The whole idea is that it lasts for 5 minutes with only you having to cast it once. I usually do it on an insta cast or at the opening every three or four pulls.

Plus as you see I said that I wouldn't sacrifice healing or damage for cc.

AND! If you haven't noticed you can switch souls at will if u have no points in the soul. SOOOOO if you really really had to CC for a pull switch to poly before the pull and switch back out after. U'll have to restack ur buff, but u get the best of both worlds.
#9 Mar 10 2011 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
7 posts
I didn't put it in the original thread because I really don't want this nerfed as its pretty much a "free" cc in raids.
#10 Mar 10 2011 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
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MerricBLGC wrote:
AND! If you haven't noticed you can switch souls at will if u have no points in the soul. SOOOOO if you really really had to CC for a pull switch to poly before the pull and switch back out after. U'll have to restack ur buff, but u get the best of both worlds.


I guess thats fine. No real reason to even discuss the 3rd soul then, just use what works for the situation.
#11 Mar 10 2011 at 6:12 PM Rating: Decent
7 posts
sweet, anything else u notice glaringly wrong with the spec?
#12 Mar 10 2011 at 10:04 PM Rating: Good
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Nope. there really isnt a way to get more healing than with that build.
#13 Mar 11 2011 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
6 posts
While I agree with most of your points, there are a few things I'd change:

Raised in Nature: This talent doesn't affect your INT at all. It does however increase your endurance, but it doesn't result in more healing. Three points to free up, in other words.

Nature's Corrosion: As you point out yourself, DoTs contribute very little to healing. To evaluate the effect, we need to know if this added DoT ticks every second, every 2 seconds or every 3 seconds. For healing it would of course be ideal with two huge ticks instead of six small, but either way, I don't see this talent as essencial for healing.


With six points freed up, I'd go for any combination of:

Circle of Life: Several people argue against it, which is understandable from a dps perspective. However, with the long cooldown on our direct heals, it's even more important that they crit when we can actually use them. This is said from the perspective of a main healer, of course. If your aim is to be a decent support for the healers while you dps, you will of course want to skip this talent. But my experience so far is that the cast time on our damaging spells is too long to save a tank in need of urgent healing.

Destructive Growth: If used correctly, it's a 10% increase to your damage based healing when Wild Growth is up, and an additional 10% healing from Radiant Spore procs. Might not give an overall increase in healing/damage done, but provides a nice cooldown for healing intense phases of an encounter.

Essence Surge: The in-game tooltip says it heals for 100% of the target's health, not the mage's. While a 50% reduction to damage done for 12 seconds can seem devastating, don't underestimate the value of Radiant Spores and your direct heals. In end-game content other healers will be able to offset the effect, on your own it will hurt more (but probably not more than a dead tank, with the resulting mobs/boss hitting your party).


In any case, one of the things I appreciate about RIFT is that there are so many different ways to play the same calling, which makes the search for "the one right solution" more a search for "the one of many solutions that works well for me and the people I usually play with". My input here is purely from my own perspective, but that might not fit with the role and playstyle you are comfortable with.

Edited, Mar 11th 2011 11:38am by Ayanuura
#14 Mar 11 2011 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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Ayanuura wrote:


Destructive Growth: If used correctly, it's a 10% increase to your damage based healing when Wild Growth is up, and an additional 10% healing from Radiant Spore procs. Might not give an overall increase in healing/damage done, but provides a nice cooldown for healing intense phases of an encounter.


Why would this be used at all in place of Entropic Veil? I can somewhat understand Wild Growth for the situational AoE heal (umm almost all our healing is AoE anyway >_>) but the damage gain from a talented entropic veil is a significantly better use of charge imo.
Quote:

Essence Surge: The in-game tooltip says it heals for 100% of the target's health, not the mage's. While a 50% reduction to damage done for 12 seconds can seem devastating, don't underestimate the value of Radiant Spores and your direct heals. In end-game content other healers will be able to offset the effect, on your own it will hurt more (but probably not more than a dead tank, with the resulting mobs/boss hitting your party).
The penalty really doesnt seem worth it to me, if you get to apoint where that is needed i think theres a high chance the group is going down anyway.

I agree with takin points out of the ones you mentioned though. What about putting 5 of those into Biting Cold in elemental for the 5% crit. Leaves you with 1 point to put somewhere... Maybe living shell? thats 60% of your MP returned to you using only one GCD, instead of spamming sac life:mana when you run low. Also has the shield too if you get aggro from something.

Edited, Mar 11th 2011 9:00am by KTurner
#15 Mar 18 2011 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
6 posts
Ayanuura wrote:
Nature's Corrosion: As you point out yourself, DoTs contribute very little to healing. To evaluate the effect, we need to know if this added DoT ticks every second, every 2 seconds or every 3 seconds. For healing it would of course be ideal with two huge ticks instead of six small, but either way, I don't see this talent as essencial for healing.


It's three ticks every two seconds or:

0.0 VS/Ruin (80% lgv heal)
2.0 tick (90% lgv heal)
4.0 tick (no heal)
6.0 tick (no heal)

If you VS/Ruin for 100, you would get an LGV heal for 80. If you go 3/3 NC, two seconds later you would get an additional LGV heal for 0.9*100/3 = 30. That's an increase of 30/80 = 37.5% to your VS/Ruin-based healing. You would have to figure out what you're casting to decide if you think that's useful or not, but it's pretty unlikely that you can legitimately skip NC.

The issue with our dots not contributing a lot of healing can't blindly be applied to NC the same as you would apply it to NI in the lock tree, particularly since the man already pointed out that one of the primary issues with NI is that it doesn't affect the dot from NC. Without actually mathing anything out, VS is probably reasonably close to 1/3 of your group healing. Increasing that by nearly 40% is substantial.

However, even if NI /did/ work on the NC dot (the +37.5%), that would only make NI somewhere around a 10% increase to group healing. That is vastly less significant (though certainly worthwhile if it actually had that effect). As it is, however, Withering Vine (our only true dot) doesn't heal through LGV (only 90% of the first tick of the dot procs an LGV heal, the rest is directly through a group hot-type effect), so NI is an insignificant source of healing. If NI affects the damage of our channeled spells, that could make it worth taking depending on the depth of your chloro spec. Currently (and for the foreseeable future), I prefer the extra 6% health.

TLDR: NC is a 37.5% increase to VS/Ruin healing and commensurately hard to justify skipping. NI is a trivial increase in healing and easily skippable unless A) it affects the damage of chloro channels and/or B) it is changed to increase the damage of the dots from NC.
#16 Mar 18 2011 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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Good work, Smithers.
#17 Mar 24 2011 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I've been coming in number 1 in healing done at level 40 in warfront by just putting all my points into chloro, and then messing around with warlock as a second with 13 points, and archon with 0. I think healers should concentrate on making sure they have a high endurance since their spells have a longer cast time, and let a true dom do their thing.

Edited, Mar 24th 2011 11:27am by kororo0427
#18 May 12 2011 at 4:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Love this build. using this as my second build for dungeon healing. Thanks for all the guidance.
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
#19 May 12 2011 at 11:53 AM Rating: Default
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Ok... i thought we pretty much already covered this in another topic, but... w/e

First off here is my spec

The only reason its 33 points in chloro instead of 32 is cause i want to be able to que for an expert as a healer.
I've healed several dungeons and for several rift raid groups so far and EVERYONE on my shard that i've ran with absolutely loves my spec. I've even had tanks compliment my dps and heals on several occasions.
In several dungeons i've been paired with support from another mage that was also running a chloro spec, one closer to yours. We will flip back and forth between who is doing main healing, and if i can i run full archon, but the tank is usually more comfortable with me spec.

Heres how i play it
Cast all 4 buffs i offer before every conflict (all instant casts)
macro- ruin, nt, vs mabye even radiant spores (if your never having trouble with tanks health)
cast radiant spores at the begining or right before combat
3 dots i like to keep up
withering vine (1.5 cast time)
sering vitality (instant)
dark touch(instant)
Then depending on health... a good gear tank typically doesnt need a heal yet so i cast a Pillagin stone
Now go back and forth between healing and and stacking pillaging stone, after the 5th stack flip to keeping up dots and occasionally using volcanic bomb.

Another nice advantage u gain from this spec is more cleansing abilities... and a mass de-curse

I understand you like your spec.... and i like my spec
But please dont preach to everyone about how the healing mage should be done

A few additional things i'd like to point out... with full buffs rolling (which doesnt take long) I end up with right around the same amount of dps in both specs, so i'll take my spec. Kthxbye

#20 May 12 2011 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
13 posts
kororo0427 wrote:
I think healers should concentrate on making sure they have a high endurance


wat
#21 May 17 2011 at 9:19 AM Rating: Default
40 posts
MerricBLGC wrote:
I've been seeing people post some questionable math and conjectures about raid/dungeon healing, and I would like to put my two sense in to see if anyone is fallowing the same train of thought.

two "cents" and "following"
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fallowing
sorry... this post is mostly useless but I could read after seeing those two errors.
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