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Saboteur 1.1 warning - nerf incoming!Follow

#1 Mar 24 2011 at 6:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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No idea how huge it will be, but two incoming nerfs to saboteur.

-Charge range is reduced to 20m baseline (25 with talents)
-Charge Booster is now an active ability with a cooldown. It increases the damage of your next detonate within 60 seconds by 50%. It is off the global cooldown
-Individual charges of the same type are now shown separately. In other words, 5x Blast Charge shows as 100,100,100,100,100. I believe this was done because previously if one charge crit, they all did (not positive though).

Edit: This is how Sabotuer played on the world event test realm last night. Obviously things may change before the patch is released.

Edited, Mar 24th 2011 8:26am by LockeColeMA
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#2 Mar 29 2011 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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Can't wait. You know there is a problem when in warfronts 95% of rouges are Sabs and all you see is the little gold charges streaming across your screen.

One major thing not mentioned was the armor pen bug, where it was ignoring more then 25-50%

Here are the 1.1 alpha patch notes on Sab - From official rift forums by Elrar the Assistant Community Manager.

SABOTEUR
* Due to the below changes, characters with points spent in Saboteur will receive a free soul point respec.
* Undetonated Spike Charge and Blast Charge will not cause stealth to break when the charges expire.
CLARIFICATION EDIT: * Shrapnel Charge: Fixed a bug where Shrapnel Charge would not fire if the main target was killed by the initial Detonate damage.
* Reduced the range of all Bombs and Charges to 15 meters, down from 20 meters.
* Reduced the range of Detonate to 15 meters, down from 20 meters.
* Long Range Bombing: Now increases the range you can hurl Bombs by 1-5 meters, down from 2-10 meters.
* Remote Clipping: Now increases the range of your Charges and Detonates by 1-5 meters, down from 2-10 meters.
* The outcome and damage of each charge is now calculated individually. When you detonate 5 Blast Charges, you will see 5 damage numbers, each with its own chance to critically hit, rather than one large number.
* Improved Blast Charge: Fixed a bug where the armor penetration provided was higher than 25-50%.
* Charge Booster: Redesigned to an active ability rather than a passive. When activated, the damage of your Charges is increased by 50% when detonated. This ability does not trigger global cooldown and is on a 1.5 minute cooldown.
#3 Mar 29 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks for that. Those seem like reasonable changes without ******** the soul over (of course, I'm a non-sab rogue so that's just my opinion).
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#4 Mar 29 2011 at 12:05 PM Rating: Decent
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The impact really comes down to two main things:

1. Range reduction will hurt in PvP. 10 meters is a significant difference.
2. How much armor pierce is sab really losing? This could be a huge (or potentially insignificant) damage hit against armored targets, which would hurt rogues overall against melee clerics. Justicars are a big enough PITA as it is for a rogue. If this turns out to be a big hit rogues would be hurting for an anti-armored soul build to switch into.

I doubt any of this will impact PvE in any significant way. Might lose some damage against bosses; might make it slightly more dangerous to fight big PBAoE targets.
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#5 Mar 30 2011 at 4:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Charge Booster changed again. It's now a passive again, but it makes it so if you have 5 charges on an enemy They take an additional 50% of weapon damage when detonated. The amount increases by 15% for every point spent in Saboteur over 21.

I can say for sure that my Saboteur is hitting noticeably weaker now than previously. Whether this is from the armor piercing fix, spreading out the damage for each charge to limit crits, or the weakened charge booster, I'm not sure. I feel like the charge booster one is the biggest, just because I feel like my detonates were hitting for more before.
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#6 Mar 30 2011 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, armor generally negates ~20-25% of all damage at even level in most situations so, if they're hitting that much weaker it's likely all the armor pierce.
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#7 Mar 30 2011 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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Sabo parses are showing anywhere from 30-40% loss in dps. This is really not good for sabo and rogues in general. The one endgame viable soul has now been rendered pretty much useless.

Time to reroll mage!
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#8 Mar 30 2011 at 7:53 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah I noticed in a Codex earlier today on my 29 mage that the enemy sabs were NOT hitting me for my entire health pool in one gigantic burst, which I felt was a refreshing change from earlier.

I do feel like they probably should have found a way to do that without ******** up sab's PvE dps so much.

I do also feel like I'm in the same boat since my main is a warrior and virtually every soul I have got stomped into the ground (well... maybe not Warlord.. but I'm not a Warlord... nobody is). I'm registering about the same ~30% dps loss on my PvE dps role (Champ/Para/RB) and I haven't found a combination yet that puts out acceptable dps.
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#9 Mar 31 2011 at 8:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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ArexLovesPie wrote:
Sabo parses are showing anywhere from 30-40% loss in dps. This is really not good for sabo and rogues in general. The one endgame viable soul has now been rendered pretty much useless.

Time to reroll mage!


I still call ******** on anyone saying that sabo is the "only endgame viable soul".
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#10 Mar 31 2011 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:

I do also feel like I'm in the same boat since my main is a warrior and virtually every soul I have got stomped into the ground (well... maybe not Warlord.. but I'm not a Warlord... nobody is). I'm registering about the same ~30% dps loss on my PvE dps role (Champ/Para/RB) and I haven't found a combination yet that puts out acceptable dps.


Yea i know right? That armor penetration bug was a lot bigger than i expected :(
#11 Mar 31 2011 at 8:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I just want an anti-armored soul to be able to swap into. It was nice that with good positioning and planning (which no one is better at than rogues) one could potentially work around the jan-ken-pon that PvP in wow/eqish MMOs usually ends up being.

I guess I'll tool around with some NB/ASN builds to try and get some heavier burst.

I can survive toe-to-toe, one-on-one with clerics and warriors in my RS/ASN build. I can't seem to kill melee clerics, though, even with back to back stuns and slip away. They just regen mana and heal up.

Is there a major reason to go heavy into sab versus picking up an NB or heavy marksman build now? You can get most of the good utility in sab early on. (adhesive, disable/root traps)
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#12 Mar 31 2011 at 12:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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SwiftAusterity wrote:

Is there a major reason to go heavy into sab versus picking up an NB or heavy marksman build now? You can get most of the good utility in sab early on. (adhesive, disable/root traps)


For PvE I'm pretty sure they're still amazing AoE-DPS. Heck, even in warfronts booby-trap spam does so much damage that dying within 10 seconds is almost worth it just to see me top the damage meters miles above everyone else Smiley: lol

The only DPS loss stats I have are anecdotal. I've been farming Silverwood for almost 3 weeks now to get all the artifacts. Sometimes even at 34 I aggro enemies (oops). Before I could take out anything with 3-4 charges and a detonate. Now even with 5 full blast charges I don't knock out a level 19 enemy. It kinda bites.

I'm sure I'll notice it a lot more when my life is on the line in warfronts or appropriate level PvE!
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#13 Mar 31 2011 at 12:46 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess I'll see soon. I've been rifting for the world events and there's no reason to use my toe-bomb build for that when the two AoEs in RS kills nearly everything in freemarch in 2 hits. (that or virtuoso coda spam)

I don't really like playing the stealth->teleport->switch builds behind a rock game necessarily but it really screws with people.
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#14 Apr 01 2011 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
Well...Here's the deal. I did not want to be pidgeonholed into sab or bard for anything above T2. And that's exactly what was happening. The sab and warrior PvE numbers before the patch were ******** up expectations for where DPS should be at.

I'm not talking about just blowing up trash with shrap charges. Most specs can put up nice numbers AOE. No this was single target boss numbers of 800-1300 which was 300-600 DPS higher than any other spec.

So now Sabs single target boss DPS is around 500. Which is the average for people without terrible gear at 50. I can get that DPS in one of my MM builds or higher in my Ranger but thats with pet. And face it kids managing a pet in this games endgame is a no go. Experts love your pet as much as they love melee builds.

Which is to say you pet is dead again and your DPS just dropped to ***** without it.

Deep NB can put up some snazzy 600-700 numbers but see above about melee.

So I have been sticking with my pretty good MM build (500 Single target raid boss which is higher than you think with movement and was 3rd place in our Duke L run last night in Greenscale.) Or swapping to my deep NB build when we need burst and it's a fight where melee are ok. (Think that shelf boss in t2 CC that pushes you off a cliff if you don't burn him fast enough)

All this is well and good except when you get to Infiltrator Johen in greenscale and they expect you to burn his annilation bomb in 30 seconds. This takes 850 DPS per 15 DPS. and is not really all that possible since the warrior and Sab bug fixes.


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#15 Apr 02 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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Master Shojindo wrote:

So now Sabs single target boss DPS is around 500. Which is the average for people without terrible gear at 50. I can get that DPS in one of my MM builds or higher in my Ranger but thats with pet. And face it kids managing a pet in this games endgame is a no go. Experts love your pet as much as they love melee builds.


My warrior knows how your pet feels.

Smiley: glare

Edited, Apr 2nd 2011 3:52pm by Callinon
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#16 Apr 03 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
I've changed my mind on this somewhat over the last few days. 51 point ranger is just so much more damage than any MM spec I can create and I tried man many different builds. So far keepignmy pet up has not been to bad and for non pet friendly fights I just use my NB build.
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#17 Apr 03 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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Master Shojindo wrote:
I've changed my mind on this somewhat over the last few days. 51 point ranger is just so much more damage than any MM spec I can create and I tried man many different builds. So far keepignmy pet up has not been to bad and for non pet friendly fights I just use my NB build.


But wouldn't any fight that wrecks your pet just wreck YOU instead as a Nightblade?
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#18 Apr 03 2011 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
Nah it's more about the pet adding or spreading harmful effects. Like the blood poison in expert AP for example.

But I do need a 5th role bad... Got melee DPS/Ranged Pet DPS/Bard/PvP atm.

I need one more for my tankspec ok wait 2 more so I can do a non pet MM build that does more damage than what I do with a dead pet for fights that need ranged too. So ok yeah basically what you said is true lol.
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#19 Apr 03 2011 at 6:38 PM Rating: Good
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Ouch, this is going to light the Oboards on fire. I stumbled in there by accident the other day and people were all up in Trion's face about Rogue DPS in T2. Moaning and yelling and threatening to cancel subscriptions because they don't feel like they're pulling their weight in expert raids.*

Normally I'd write it off as grass-is-always-greener whining, but it seems like a genuine issue. Some have been doing parses on it.

*) Couldn't find the thread I found last night while looking for a Bard guide. People were crying so hard, I couldn't stop laughing. They'd update the thread every hour to ***** about how Trion doesn't listen to their customers because another hour went by without a response or patch.
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#20 Apr 03 2011 at 8:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
Ouch, this is going to light the Oboards on fire. I stumbled in there by accident the other day and people were all up in Trion's face about Rogue DPS in T2. Moaning and yelling and threatening to cancel subscriptions because they don't feel like they're pulling their weight in expert raids.*

Normally I'd write it off as grass-is-always-greener whining, but it seems like a genuine issue. Some have been doing parses on it.

*) Couldn't find the thread I found last night while looking for a Bard guide. People were crying so hard, I couldn't stop laughing. They'd update the thread every hour to ***** about how Trion doesn't listen to their customers because another hour went by without a response or patch.


Yeah one thing I learned pretty quickly is that the signal-to-noise ratio on the O-boards is ludicrously bad. I'm really happy to see fansite communities like this one start to grow so there can be a sane place to talk about the game without the near-impossible levels of trolling that goes on on the O-boards.

On the subject of rogues, yeah actually... their dps has never been all that stellar (except for sab) and probably needs a boost.. the problem is that they're decently hard to deal with in pvp as it is because of multi-stun locking.. so how do you raise their pve dps without making them absolute monsters in pvp?
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#21 Apr 03 2011 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
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Rearrange the trees to force them to spec deep into a few specs and forgoing pvp utility.
#22 Apr 04 2011 at 5:57 AM Rating: Decent
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The problem isn't just multi stun lock in PvP, it's the fact that rogues have more PvP utility than any other class in most trees.

NB, RS, ASN, MM all provide movement and tactical utility. SAB provides the best snares in the game. Several trees provide anti-stun/cc which has limited use in dungeons. Half the trees are melee, which will always be outperformed by range dps in dungeons on a logistics standpoint.

Most of that utility has limited or no use in PvE: Stealth, teleports, root/snares.

I don't think rogues will ever be on the level with other classes for dungeons. Bringing their "do a rotation" dps up will just make them more unbalanced for PvP unless they start branching numbers in the code between pve and pvp so they just do less to players.

I honestly think they just have to weather the whining and worry less about rogues for dungeons.
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#23 Apr 04 2011 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
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I'll have a better idea once I get into more T2s, but so far I have yet to feel useless. I'm pretty much always at the top of dps, whether I'm in my ranged or melee spec (though it is easier for me to drop to 2nd in ranged spec on certain fights)... maybe the other rogue and mage I play with though just aren't as good? Or do things change drastically in T2? Either way, while I wouldn't mind a buff I don't see a problem yet other than that Trion really doesn't like melee dps on bosses. :P
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#24 Apr 04 2011 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
Melee rogues are fine in PvP already imho. I do pretty good with my NB/Sin. But ranged rogues don't have all the stuns/CC anyway so buffing them won't be scary for 50 pvp really.

Ranged both MM and to a lesser extent Ranger could use a PvE boost. Sabs are still ok though not what they used to be but I don't like the Sab playstyle for PvE so it would be nice to have a pet free option.

MM was only ever scary at low levels in PvP anyway and they totally hosed it for PvE with that heavy handed 15% nerf to everything MM early on. There is so much freaking CC in PvP that MM is a free meal to any class atm.

But the clusterfook of CC in this game is a whole other topic.

Oh and yeah Maz sadly the o-boards for this game have devolved into a terrible cesspit of whiny stupidity for the most part. Smiley: lol

Edited, Apr 4th 2011 1:38pm by Shojindo
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#25 Apr 04 2011 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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If we're seriously going to compete with WoW our o-boards have to be EVEN WORSE.

I'm not sure that's actually possible, but darn it we have to try.
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