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#1 Apr 05 2011 at 10:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not making a "Rift is WoW clone" thread.

however, having played WoW for 5yrs since launch i've seen it grow from a fun mess to an overproduced bore. hence the quitting during WotLK(great story anyway).

i've seen Rift compared to WoW and i agree with the assessment that it is "WoW year 2-4". the single biggest similarity are the design "quirks". some might call them flaws.

though the Rift Team has been pretty good at working around and catching coding bugs and other design errors they still have the same obvious starter MMO issues that you'd think would have been thought of before release. i'm seeing the WoW growing pains all over again, and i've only been playing for 2 weeks!

begin TL;DR:

so, we have the obvious missing feature that anyone knows with be added later: guild bank, flying mounts, LFG, voice, addons, etc. with each of these comes a whole bag of oh-noes! when they decide to implement them they will have to back-modify other parts of the game to compensate. flying mounts being one of the trickier ones, you have to make sure the movable space is "flying mount exploit proof". WoW had to break Azeroth to make it compatible.

speaking of exploits, with a growing population comes more users testing the integrity of the design. some people wander on to exploits, others seek them out. once they're known they usually become viral quickly. case in point: hotfix for iron ore and hotfix for equiping extra weapons. all iron ore was disabled for a few days before the fix(PITA when thats your current skill up). then theres the weapon exploit. how should something like that even be possible. i haven't coded in years but how bout a global "if hands = 2 then maxWeapon = 2". jess sayin. once the population reaches the millions you're gonna start seeing people equiping helms on their butts or mages with Rick Astley for a pet.

i've already been terrain pwned twice since i've started the game and thats just from going to places to complete quests. i'm awaiting the "How to get to Old Meridian and then free fall for 3 hours" post.

next, we get to balance issues. this can be an eight page post, but i'm not talking class vs class vs spec vs abilities. i'm merely touching on stuff like range vs melee and racial abilities. i love pvp. i picked a rogue hoping to be an assassin-flag-carrier-killer. 20+ levels in and i realize i can't use my run speed racial, stealth rogues aren't "as advertised", and ranged can sit up on a rock and murder me. this is my own ignorance. i do know gap closer abilities come later and this isn't WoW's one-shot baby, but c'mon, after an opener and 3 rounds of flawless combo cycling i can't kill a guy 3 levels below me spamming Cadence.

i think i had more points to make but now i'm just upset. /whine
#2 Apr 05 2011 at 10:48 AM Rating: Decent
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bah. just logged in and got the "Rift client brokeded, run Recover". appropriate.
#3 Apr 05 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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I've been getting that occasionally. I have yet to actually see anything broken, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Also, I'm not sure flying mounts will ever be added. I just don't see them being necessary.
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#4 Apr 05 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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I honestly hope we never ever get flying mounts, or flying at all. I just don't want it in Rift.

Make an RS/ASN if you need more mobility but want to retain stealth. You can't be any more mobile in the game at all than having permastealth, slip away and 6 teleport powers. (4 of which violate terrain elevation blocks, 3 of which put you right next to the target)

All MMOs have geometry problems, though. There's still places to fall through the geometry in WoW years later. (talking pre-cata, obviously they introduced more since they revamped the world)

You just can't QA a space this big. People make bug reports, you fix them as they come in.
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#5 Apr 05 2011 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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How dare they have bugs on this massively multiplayer online role playing game!

THE NERVE OF THEM TO HAVE BUGS AND THEN FIX THEM SO SOON!

I'd quit ********* this game has had **** fixed so fast in hot fixes and patch updates its beyond stupid how hard these people are working to make this game shine.

Just give it time.
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#6 Apr 05 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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tommyguns wrote:

so, we have the obvious missing feature that anyone knows with be added later: guild bank, flying mounts, LFG, voice, addons, etc. with each of these comes a whole bag of oh-noes! when they decide to implement them they will have to back-modify other parts of the game to compensate. flying mounts being one of the trickier ones, you have to make sure the movable space is "flying mount exploit proof". WoW had to break Azeroth to make it compatible.


You'll have to explain to me sometime how guild banks, voice chat, and a useful LFG system will cause the game to have to be redesigned to handle them.

Quote:
i've already been terrain pwned twice since i've started the game and thats just from going to places to complete quests. i'm awaiting the "How to get to Old Meridian and then free fall for 3 hours" post.


I've only actually gotten stuck in terrain geometry once and pushing the big "I'm Stuck" button on the CS pane fixed it right away. I have actually worked my way up to the top of Meridian and fallen through the tops of the buildings up there (not as solid as they appear) but I just fell through the world and respawned at a graveyard none the worse for wear.

Quote:
next, we get to balance issues. this can be an eight page post, but i'm not talking class vs class vs spec vs abilities. i'm merely touching on stuff like range vs melee and racial abilities. i love pvp. i picked a rogue hoping to be an assassin-flag-carrier-killer. 20+ levels in and i realize i can't use my run speed racial, stealth rogues aren't "as advertised", and ranged can sit up on a rock and murder me. this is my own ignorance. i do know gap closer abilities come later and this isn't WoW's one-shot baby, but c'mon, after an opener and 3 rounds of flawless combo cycling i can't kill a guy 3 levels below me spamming Cadence.


If you'd read the racial tooltips you'd have seen that they can't be used in combat, Trion took that one step further and made them unusable in warfronts in or out of combat so they wouldn't have any unintended exploitative effects on the game.

Stealth works pretty well, people will generally only be able to see you if they're higher level than you (and they should), and then they still have to react to that and do something about it before you can open on them. No MMO that lasts more than a week is designed around 1v1 pvp, it's totally impossible to balance the game around that and they'd be foolish to try. As for the bard, stun him, silence him, keep him busy, you may not even kill him, but you've still basically negated any beneficial effect he's having on his team by making him concentrate on you and keeping himself alive; team game is for teams, it's not about 1v1.
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#7 Apr 05 2011 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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commenting on class balance at level 20 is just foolish in itself. Not that there arent issues with balance, but in a game that is 1 month old it is pretty good.
#8 Apr 05 2011 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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i picked a rogue hoping to be an assassin-flag-carrier-killer. 20+ levels in and i realize i can't use my run speed racial, stealth rogues aren't "as advertised", and ranged can sit up on a rock and murder me. this is my own ignorance. i do know gap closer abilities come later and this isn't WoW's one-shot baby, but c'mon, after an opener and 3 rounds of flawless combo cycling i can't kill a guy 3 levels below me spamming Cadence.


Sup Tommy from the pally forums. Yeah Sin does not start to shine until later. Later on though you will be able to do pretty much exactly what you are wanting to do there. Which is get a stealth opener and burst someone down while they panic. Especially combined with fel blades healing debuff in the late NB line.

Balance is flux still the game is young.
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#9 Apr 05 2011 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
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let me first say: i do like this game and i find it refreshing and fun.

i'll also further expand on a few points. Trion so far has been a reactive team more than proactive. they see a problem and they fix it...fast! this was obvious when they get super hacked a few weeks ago and they implemented coin lock and access codes(maybe they coulda done this from the get go). however you will start to see bigger issues that aren't as easy as a hotfix.

for instance, when they release the Trial versions you will see the army of gold sellers and hackers come out. if they open the door to addons or LFG you will see more "newb prejudice". stuff like dmg meters are a mixed bag, good tool to get better but it also becomes the litmus test for grouping. soon botting will be introduced on bigger shards as well as wacky economies. pvp is still open for afk'ers to abuse, even with reporting features.

these are all things that are natural to MMOs and it's not apparent that the devs have made proper provisions for some of these. this game is fun right now. it will naturally evolve. the way the devs handle the evolution will make or break the game. in my experience, once they listen too hard to the players and cater to each whim, it's downhill.

Quote:
If you'd read the racial tooltips you'd have seen that they can't be used in combat, Trion took that one step further and made them unusable in warfronts in or out of combat so they wouldn't have any unintended exploitative effects on the game.

Stealth works pretty well, people will generally only be able to see you if they're higher level than you (and they should), and then they still have to react to that and do something about it before you can open on them. No MMO that lasts more than a week is designed around 1v1 pvp, it's totally impossible to balance the game around that and they'd be foolish to try. As for the bard, stun him, silence him, keep him busy, you may not even kill him, but you've still basically negated any beneficial effect he's having on his team by making him concentrate on you and keeping himself alive; team game is for teams, it's not about 1v1.


let me clear this up a little. i didn't want to get into a balance discussion. i was trying to illustrate the "difficulty vs reward" of a game like this. usually a complex setup like a melee rogue is rewarded by higher than avg dmg or something equivalent. i understand this is totally not the case in this game since i can respec to a "hunter" and deal more dmg with less risk. i'll deal with it and play the best rogue i can anyway. (i hated easy mode hunter in WoW)
#10 Apr 05 2011 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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The main reward for playing a melee rogue here is either avoidance (BD), damage soak (RS), tactics (stealth, teleports) or stunlock.

Granted, stunlock is also your only opportunity to kill things but melee rogues get a LOT of stuns/disables in the end. Unfortunately you don't get most of them until late 20s, and you wont get several of them all at once until the 40s.

I don't really think melee needs the uberburst for rogue in PvP as we get insane amounts of tactical utility outside the PvP soul whereas most classes get most of their tactical utility in the PvP soul itself.

Heck, at 0 points in sab you add ranged attacks (detonate) and the most useful snare in the game.
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#11 Apr 05 2011 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:


I've only actually gotten stuck in terrain geometry once and pushing the big "I'm Stuck" button on the CS pane fixed it right away. I have actually worked my way up to the top of Meridian and fallen through the tops of the buildings up there (not as solid as they appear) but I just fell through the world and respawned at a graveyard none the worse for wear.


I got to the top of Meridian by coming from the mountains in Stonefield behind the city (there's a cairn up there). I also found myself jumping through a ceiling to what I thought was the bottom floor of the central area, and wound up falling through the world :(.
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#12 Apr 05 2011 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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Vataro wrote:
Quote:


I've only actually gotten stuck in terrain geometry once and pushing the big "I'm Stuck" button on the CS pane fixed it right away. I have actually worked my way up to the top of Meridian and fallen through the tops of the buildings up there (not as solid as they appear) but I just fell through the world and respawned at a graveyard none the worse for wear.


I got to the top of Meridian by coming from the mountains in Stonefield behind the city (there's a cairn up there). I also found myself jumping through a ceiling to what I thought was the bottom floor of the central area, and wound up falling through the world :(.


Hmm.. never tried mountain-goating up from Stonefield, I just climbed up the mountains right outside Meridian to the north
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#13 Apr 05 2011 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Try climbing up the interior walls/ramps of lantern hook (not the actual ramp that goes up to the "black market" area). There's a jillion ways to fall straight through and end up in some sort of invisible lake.
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#14 Apr 05 2011 at 2:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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My favorite is over by Lovers Leap in Scarlet Gorge.

If you take the path to the huge bridge, cross it and make an immediate right like you were going to do the puzzle there. Keep going straight and you see some rocks on the walls. Try jumping behind them and you go into this weird fall zone where you just hover and can't move.

Good ole' unstuck button works wonders.

EDIT:

I also wanted to mention something about this proactive reactive thing. Please, name off as many game developers that have been entirely proactive in finding bugs for their games once they've felt it was good enough to pass as a developed product and no longer in beta phases.

Companies that make games like Rift, Warhammer, Aion, WoW and Guildwars, rely heavily on feedback from their players to help them discover any bugs that might have slipped their grasp when they were first coding the game. Stop making this **** sound so easy and realize that this is a MASSIVE game and no one is going to be able to find every single bug in this game.

Give it a rest, god **** your worse than my wife with how much you nag on this game.

Edited, Apr 5th 2011 3:48pm by ArexLovesPie
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#15 Apr 05 2011 at 5:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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I am so tired of the "WoW this, WoW that" on message forums and in game I could scream. Seriously, just play the game and enjoy it for what it is rather than comparing it to another game. This thread is in serious need of derailment, like the thread on the WoW forums of this same topic but I suck at it so someone else will have to do it!

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#16 Apr 05 2011 at 5:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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KassandrahKnight wrote:
like the thread on the WoW forums of this same topic


The world can never have too many Colin Firth threads!




I'm going to leave the rest of that one out of this.
#17 Apr 05 2011 at 7:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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teacake wrote:
KassandrahKnight wrote:
like the thread on the WoW forums of this same topic


The world can never have too many Colin Firth threads!




I'm going to leave the rest of that one out of this.

I like that version more as well Smiley: grin Although Keira Knightly... Smiley: drool
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#18 Apr 05 2011 at 9:32 PM Rating: Good
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Just touching on a few points...

tommyguns wrote:
for instance, when they release the Trial versions you will see the army of gold sellers and hackers come out. if they open the door to addons or LFG you will see more "newb prejudice". stuff like dmg meters are a mixed bag, good tool to get better but it also becomes the litmus test for grouping. soon botting will be introduced on bigger shards as well as wacky economies. pvp is still open for afk'ers to abuse, even with reporting features.


When the game first launched, gold (plat) spammers made heavy use of tell spam. The filter that Trion put into place adapted and the spammers were locked down. So they moved to using in-game mail spam. Trion made some tweaks and that stopped. Now the worst we get is the occasional guy in global channels spamming REALLY creative messages to bypass the filter and then immediately logging off so that you can't report them. The nature of what they're left with is such that they can't stay online long enough to make a real nuisance of themselves.

Quote:
these are all things that are natural to MMOs and it's not apparent that the devs have made proper provisions for some of these. this game is fun right now. it will naturally evolve. the way the devs handle the evolution will make or break the game. in my experience, once they listen too hard to the players and cater to each whim, it's downhill.


They seem to be making changes with "all deliberate speed" with regards to a lot of player feedback. Referencing the soul changes they made with 1.1, a lot of those were based around what was happening in PvE (specifically the changes to the number of targets affected by passive AoE healing). Others were corrections to bugs that were producing damage higher than intended within the mechanics of the soul (sab and warrior both had armor pen bugs that were accounting for a lot of extra damage). What I like about their approach is that they take forum feedback into account, but they explained why they made the changes that they did and made it clear that they had reasons of their own above and beyond the forum QQ that led them to the decisions they made.

Next up will be a nerf to pyros. Non-mages (and especially rogues and warriors) are eagerly awaiting that day...

Quote:
If you'd read the racial tooltips you'd have seen that they can't be used in combat, Trion took that one step further and made them unusable in warfronts in or out of combat so they wouldn't have any unintended exploitative effects on the game.


Can't use them in dungeons, either. There was a lot of controversy over the racial abilities during the beta when they were all combat-oriented so now they're basically just fun fluff. The out-of-combat sprint and the Bahmi leap are great fun. Can't say I'm thrilled about fox-mode, though.

Quote:
Stealth works pretty well, people will generally only be able to see you if they're higher level than you (and they should), and then they still have to react to that and do something about it before you can open on them. No MMO that lasts more than a week is designed around 1v1 pvp, it's totally impossible to balance the game around that and they'd be foolish to try. As for the bard, stun him, silence him, keep him busy, you may not even kill him, but you've still basically negated any beneficial effect he's having on his team by making him concentrate on you and keeping himself alive; team game is for teams, it's not about 1v1.

let me clear this up a little. i didn't want to get into a balance discussion. i was trying to illustrate the "difficulty vs reward" of a game like this. usually a complex setup like a melee rogue is rewarded by higher than avg dmg or something equivalent. i understand this is totally not the case in this game since i can respec to a "hunter" and deal more dmg with less risk. i'll deal with it and play the best rogue i can anyway. (i hated easy mode hunter in WoW)


Rogues are clearly in need of some attention all around. When sabs were running around blowing up crybabies, nobody really worried too much about the melee rogues (except the people playing them) because hey...you can always rebuild for saboteur. I leveled my rogue (dedicated PvP character) from level 10 to the early 40s as a saboteur and it was great fun, but the nerfs kind of rendered that soul sadly mediocre so I decided to switch it up. Now at 50 my preferred build for warfronts is a Nightblade/Assassin mix for the 50% healing debuff and ranged attack options from Nightblade and the stealth/bleeds from Assassin. It CAN be an absolutely deadly build but it's very much the "sneak around to the back of the enemy group and try to gib their healer(s) before you get focused into oblivion". Unfortunately, with everything everyone else can throw at us even that build is good in isolated situations. Lately I've been spending time in warfronts as a bard. Can't heal for crap compared to a cleric or a chloro and my damage output sucks worse than a bare-fisted warrior, but I bring some buffs to the table and it's fun watching the green numbers fly up the screen when I can situation myself on the outer edges of the scrum and do my thing.

Overall, I expect to see some tweaks in favor of melee rogues soon. Our damage is reasonable in PvE but we're hard pressed to be viable in PvP.
#19 Apr 05 2011 at 11:47 PM Rating: Good
That's funny Aurelius. I play pretty much the same way. But yeah I think rogues are due next for some buffjustment. *crosses fingers.
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#20 Apr 06 2011 at 1:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Master Shojindo wrote:
That's funny Aurelius. I play pretty much the same way. But yeah I think rogues are due next for some buffjustment. *crosses fingers.


I like NB/SIN because it's got good damage potential, the healing debuff gives us a very clear edge vs. healers who would otherwise just stand there laughing at us while they heal through everything we throw at them, and also because I can make really sneaky all-purpose macros for a lot of my abilities so that my keybinds are largely the same whether I'm at melee range or farther out. My biggest issue right now is that in a lot of warfronts, everything is such a swarm of AoE that stealth can quickly become useless and quite often it takes a long time to get to the "juicy" targets (like the clerics/chloros standing on the opposite rock around Codex).

I did do close to 300k overall healing with my bard in Port Scion tonight though. Just over 2/3 of the way to Cadet so I can start equipping all the shiny purples in the bank >.<
#21 Apr 06 2011 at 7:11 AM Rating: Decent
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I actually don't go after healers personally. I go after the softest possible targets which usually end up being other rogues and mages. If you can take out their heavy backline aoe dps and chloros life becomes a bit easier all around imoo.

It's not hard to get close to people when you can teleport ;)
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#22khnie, Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 2:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) WOW/Blizzard has proven how great they are thru the years already, let's wait and see what RIFT can still offer for the months/years to come..
#23 Apr 06 2011 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Just touching on a few points...


amazing reply. you have instilled me with a new confidence in the game.

i hope the game can keep its allure and break the cycle of monotony other devs have established.
#24 Apr 07 2011 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
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It seems there are only two starting areas, one in each faction. Gets extremely boring creating a new character of a different race.

Every race of the same faction also seems to hunt in the same area, same quests, although my highest level toon is 17.
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#25 Apr 07 2011 at 5:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Rift = Vanilla WoW with updated graphics and a company that actually listens to valid subscriber complaints. Basically Rift PWNS WoW, any more detail really needed?
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#26 Apr 07 2011 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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gloryb wrote:
It seems there are only two starting areas, one in each faction. Gets extremely boring creating a new character of a different race.

Every race of the same faction also seems to hunt in the same area, same quests, although my highest level toon is 17.


While true, the Ascended Soul system really limits the need to roll a lot of alts
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#27 Apr 07 2011 at 9:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:

While true, the Ascended Soul system really limits the need to roll a lot of alts


While true, the serious omission of a barber shop really encourages deleting and restarting a lot.
#28 Apr 07 2011 at 9:52 PM Rating: Good
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teacake wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:

While true, the Ascended Soul system really limits the need to roll a lot of alts


While true, the serious omission of a barber shop really encourages deleting and restarting a lot.


Yeah, my main could use a tanning salon. The lighting during character creation isn't really the same as the lighting in the rest of the game, I look seriously malnourished.
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#29 Apr 08 2011 at 5:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
teacake wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:

While true, the Ascended Soul system really limits the need to roll a lot of alts


While true, the serious omission of a barber shop really encourages deleting and restarting a lot.


Yeah, my main could use a tanning salon. The lighting during character creation isn't really the same as the lighting in the rest of the game, I look seriously malnourished.


It really doesn't look the same! Such a problem for hair color. But I have faith that any game with a dye vendor for your armor will see the light on a barber shop before long.
#30 Apr 08 2011 at 6:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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teacake wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
teacake wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:

While true, the Ascended Soul system really limits the need to roll a lot of alts


While true, the serious omission of a barber shop really encourages deleting and restarting a lot.


Yeah, my main could use a tanning salon. The lighting during character creation isn't really the same as the lighting in the rest of the game, I look seriously malnourished.


It really doesn't look the same! Such a problem for hair color. But I have faith that any game with a dye vendor for your armor will see the light on a barber shop before long.


Fun fact! Back in closed Beta, your character would be given completely random characteristics (besides hair). You would spend such a long time crafting the perfect look, log into the game, and all the options were randomized! Smiley: lol

They fixed it before release, luckily, but it went for several phases without people realizing it. Someone finally made a video showing the traits taken to extremes (jutting jaw, stretched out face, etc) and then showed the character logged into the game with much more "normal" looking features. By the next phase it was fixed Smiley: tongue
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#31 Apr 10 2011 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
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this isn't WoW's one-shot baby, but c'mon, after an opener and 3 rounds of flawless combo cycling i can't kill a guy 3 levels below me spamming Cadence.


This is why I quit Rift. Just that. I guess the rest of the game wasn't interesting enough to me for me to overlook something so small. Glad to hear someone else complaining about it actually.

Edited, Apr 10th 2011 4:42pm by Transmigration
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#32 Apr 10 2011 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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just a follow up. now i'm in the 30s on my *** rogue. it has gotten a little better with more lock down moves and i'm one point away from "imp Vanish". sweet.

also in the news: i rolled a Cleric (Just/Sham) into the teens and i steamroll everything with 3 offensive spams and a heal spam button...i stumbled onto Ret pally without even knowing it. yay.
#33 Apr 10 2011 at 6:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I find this somewhat silly overall. Cadence heals party-wide with a very low tree talent selection. Bard in and of itself is a light raid healing buff monster. Anyone expecting it to tear through PvE content is just playing the wrong class.

I don't see anyone coming on here complaining about how slow their all-healing sentinel or warden kills NPCs.

I actually switch to my 51pt bard to kill elites and other hard targets because you can heal yourself, nevermind the fact that virtuoso turns you into a dps machine for 15 seconds when you need it.
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#34 Apr 10 2011 at 7:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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I covered this on WoW forums, but figured I would post it here as well +1 post count.


My WoW account is inactive and ended in March. I just wasn't liking Catacylsm, it wasn't bad or anything but less than 4 months in and all I was doing was sitting in SW. I didn't hate it, wasn't nerd raging about it, it just didn't have that hook that made me want to play anymore.


I picked up the 3 free day trial of Rift on Saturday, I dinged my Cleric lvl 15 this afternoon. I have nothing but good things to say. This is the first MMO since WoW that I have played that has really "hooked" me. It isn't an innovator, but neither was WoW. It is just polished and easy to pick up and play.


I think the thing I liked about WoW was always that it was very accessible and easy to play but there was also a depth to it that allowed truly great players to shine. I feel that the game has slowly backed itself into a corner and much of that depth has been stripped away. I think I see the possibility for that depth to be in Rift and I am eager to keep playing because of that, not because of dynamic content, beautiful graphics or lore (though that doesn't hurt!).
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Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
#35 Apr 10 2011 at 10:46 PM Rating: Good
Woot! That's awesome Bodhi. I feel pretty much the same way. Looking forward to your opinions on the raid content. I am enjoying it so far. Don't hurry though the journey is pretty fun in this game for once.
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An old silent pond...
A frog jumps into the pond,
splash! Silence again.

~ Matsuo Basho
#36 Apr 11 2011 at 1:11 AM Rating: Good
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tommyguns wrote:
just a follow up. now i'm in the 30s on my *** rogue. it has gotten a little better with more lock down moves and i'm one point away from "imp Vanish". sweet.

also in the news: i rolled a Cleric (Just/Sham) into the teens and i steamroll everything with 3 offensive spams and a heal spam button...i stumbled onto Ret pally without even knowing it. yay.


Latest rumor from the developer IRC chat is that rogues are in line for some love. If I had to guess, I'd say assassin will be on the receiving end of most of that. It's probably one of the most familiar rogue archetypes but it's just so, so mediocre right now that buffing the soul to be competitive with other callings would probably be the best thing Trion could do to make rogues happy. Assassin and marksman, actually, since marksmen is like a long range assassin without the bleeds. I'm looking forward to seeing what they have in mind because I've got four builds for my rogue right now and I'm not really enjoying any of them.
#37 Apr 11 2011 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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3,272 posts
If sin gets buffed, holy crap.

PvP wise yeah I struggle to kill some things, but if I can line up my cooldowns right I can control most people long enough that I don't need to worry about myself killing them.

But in PvE even at 39 running sin/rs/nb just shadow stalking something into my bleed opener, bleed attack and bleed finisher I'm able to down one enemy while I shadow assault to the next one. If they buff assassin more, I'm just gonna be in heaven.
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#38 Apr 11 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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4,074 posts
Yay Bodhi!

Marksman is bad? I tried it and stank at it because I stink at kiting, but it seemed like it would be really fun in the hands of someone who doesn't, yanno, stink.

Rogue is actually all I'm playing right now, but I've been experimenting so much I'm still low level. I assumed I'd want a cleric and kept trying to make myself play one, but all that rogue singing and dancing kept sucking me back in. I haven't played any of the stabby-stealthy souls you'd more typically associate with rogues though. Ranger/bard has been really nice for leveling, although sometimes when I'm playing it I look around at all the other people running around with their pigs, and hearken back to all those night elf hunters running around Darkshore, and start feeling a little uncomfortable, like maybe someone is coining a pejorative term for me right that second.
#39 Apr 11 2011 at 12:21 PM Rating: Decent
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272 posts
ArexLovesPie wrote:
If sin gets buffed, holy crap.

PvP wise yeah I struggle to kill some things, but if I can line up my cooldowns right I can control most people long enough that I don't need to worry about myself killing them.

But in PvE even at 39 running sin/rs/nb just shadow stalking something into my bleed opener, bleed attack and bleed finisher I'm able to down one enemy while I shadow assault to the next one. If they buff assassin more, I'm just gonna be in heaven.


We're in the same boat. asn/rs is a pure beast in basic PvE work. I was tackling 2 invasions at once last night between the 2 CCs and the heal on kill. If ASN gets more damage or they reorganize RS a bit so it's actually synergistic in places it should be (like the 31 talent) for dps versus tanking it's just going to make life even easier.

Granted, of all the specs I constantly try ASN/RS is the only really decent one imoo. Otherwise you're left without self-healing, without survival, without mobility, etc.
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#40 Apr 11 2011 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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ArexLovesPie wrote:
If sin gets buffed, holy crap.

PvP wise yeah I struggle to kill some things, but if I can line up my cooldowns right I can control most people long enough that I don't need to worry about myself killing them.

But in PvE even at 39 running sin/rs/nb just shadow stalking something into my bleed opener, bleed attack and bleed finisher I'm able to down one enemy while I shadow assault to the next one. If they buff assassin more, I'm just gonna be in heaven.


Deep assassin at 50 doesn't impress. It's not viable in a PvE dps build (nightblade takes top honors there) because you can only use Jagged Strike at the start of the fight (a big chunk of our damage) and then once every two minutes when Slip Away is off CD. Backstab is mediocre in the extreme. And all the bleed damage that makes us say "weeee" while leveling in PvE is the same bleed damage that makes a warden say, "lolololol" in PvP. Assassin is burst without the burst, if that makes any sense. We base our "success" on the bleeds we land in the first 3-4 seconds in combat. Even if you manage to score the kill in PvP (which is not uncommon) you're usually boned for getting back into stealth.

Teacake wrote:
Marksman is bad? I tried it and stank at it because I stink at kiting, but it seemed like it would be really fun in the hands of someone who doesn't, yanno, stink.

Rogue is actually all I'm playing right now, but I've been experimenting so much I'm still low level. I assumed I'd want a cleric and kept trying to make myself play one, but all that rogue singing and dancing kept sucking me back in. I haven't played any of the stabby-stealthy souls you'd more typically associate with rogues though. Ranger/bard has been really nice for leveling, although sometimes when I'm playing it I look around at all the other people running around with their pigs, and hearken back to all those night elf hunters running around Darkshore, and start feeling a little uncomfortable, like maybe someone is coining a pejorative term for me right that second.


Pets in warfronts are a serious pain in the ***. Unlike WoW where you can leash a pet to make them despawn, pets in Rift will follow you across the map until the hunter dies or directs the pet elsewhere. Beyond that, ranged rogues are not doing so well. They don't do a lot of damage on their own...easy as **** to heal through. A common build for PvP right now is to mix MM or Ranger with Nightblade for the healing debuff and spam Fan Out into crowds. It's fun for a while until you realize that everyone is just LoSing you. In PvE, there's a reason most groups these days are saying, "bard or gtfo."
#41 Apr 11 2011 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
RNG/MM/Sin is viable in PvE. So is 51/15 RNG/NB. Depending on your gear. NB is definitely viable for any melee fight.

I pvp with NB/Sin to get both fel blades and Slip away. It's pretty solid.

I tried some MM/NB builds in PVP to stack Scourge of Darkness on Strafe. It's pretty fun. I also made one with Riftstalker ports. I was nigh uncatchable but the Damage was really easy to shrug off lol.

Rogues getting some love soon, hopefully not he kind of OP Pyro FoTM love that makes the forums burst into rivers of QQ. But some love is coming our way fo sho.

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An old silent pond...
A frog jumps into the pond,
splash! Silence again.

~ Matsuo Basho
#42 Apr 11 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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I imagine teacake's battle cry to be something like...

"ROUGE 4 LYFE!"

Please god I pray I didn't invoke female wrath...
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#43 Apr 11 2011 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
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Master Shojindo wrote:
hopefully not he kind of...love that makes the forums burst into rivers of QQ.


Surely you realize, this is impossible
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#44 Apr 11 2011 at 5:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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ArexLovesPie wrote:
I imagine teacake's battle cry to be something like...

"ROUGE 4 LYFE!"


You're just out to get me because I'm cake and you're pie.
#45 Apr 11 2011 at 6:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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3,272 posts
Close, but its because you're a kettle and I'm a pot.

That and we both closely resemble the color black but as you can see, I'm just charcoal black... And covered in Teflon.
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#46 Apr 11 2011 at 8:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have no idea what you're on about. My kettle is blue.
#47 Apr 11 2011 at 9:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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3,272 posts
And a perfect 10 for thread derailment.
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#48 Apr 11 2011 at 11:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Master Shojindo wrote:
RNG/MM/Sin is viable in PvE. So is 51/15 RNG/NB. Depending on your gear. NB is definitely viable for any melee fight.


I don't want to seem like I'm saying all of these builds are trash, I'm just looking at them relative to what other callings are doing and what is required in some endgame encounters. There are a lot of people going around posting really whacky builds claiming they're awesome for this and great for that and the one thing they can't get around is that in a PvE setting, all people want from a dps rogue is dps. And the dps just doesn't seem to happen as well for ranged rogues as it does for mages or warriors (or even clerics), and the only melee rogue build that's getting positive attention is NB.

Quote:
I pvp with NB/Sin to get both fel blades and Slip away. It's pretty solid.


I like it for that span of about 30 seconds where you've got the jump on someone (ideally a cleric :P) and Fell Blades procs and then you can practically hear them screaming at their monitor because AMG WHY IT DOES NOT HEAL ME LIKE IT USED TO!?!? Then everyone near the healer realizes what you've done and...ya, Slip Away. Once. Then you're either off in the corner waiting on a cooldown or plotting your kamikazee jihad assault that you know is going to send you back to the GY.

Quote:
I tried some MM/NB builds in PVP to stack Scourge of Darkness on Strafe. It's pretty fun. I also made one with Riftstalker ports. I was nigh uncatchable but the Damage was really easy to shrug off lol.


I've tried Riftstalker builds. I actually had a riftstalker/bladedancer build that was unbelievable for running the sourcestone in Whitefall in the 30-39 bracket. Blue orbs + ports + bladedancer sprint made for a really fast run across the field. Then you hit the 40 bracket when people can outrun you on their mounts and it becomes less appealing :P

Quote:
Rogues getting some love soon, hopefully not he kind of OP Pyro FoTM love that makes the forums burst into rivers of QQ. But some love is coming our way fo sho.



I just did a Black Garden match with my 18 mage. I have two builds...full chloro and full pyro. Normally I go chloro because our side usually needs healers more than we need offense, but I had just hit 18 and trained some new goodies so I decided to do one match as pyro. Ya. Nerfbat inbound.
#49 Apr 12 2011 at 12:01 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
I don't want to seem like I'm saying all of these builds are trash, I'm just looking at them relative to what other callings are doing and what is required in some endgame encounters. There are a lot of people going around posting really whacky builds claiming they're awesome for this and great for that and the one thing they can't get around is that in a PvE setting, all people want from a dps rogue is dps. And the dps just doesn't seem to happen as well for ranged rogues as it does for mages or warriors (or even clerics), and the only melee rogue build that's getting positive attention is NB.


Yeah I thought that too until I got a enough T2 to support the build. It's highly gear and crit reliant but it shines big time after you reach the break point. Before that you might as well go 51 point rng and let your pet make up for your bad gear.

I'll post the build after I test it more in greenscale this week but 800-900 single target DPS as ranged is pretty solid imo.

Not that rogues don't need love. We still do but we are scaling well with gear and raid buffs if you do the exact right thing. It's not as easy as warrior 2 button spam but they still don't have a viable ranged build so it's a trade off. Mages got hooked up and they are now right. The rest just need to be brought up to them imo.
____________________________
An old silent pond...
A frog jumps into the pond,
splash! Silence again.

~ Matsuo Basho
#50 Apr 12 2011 at 1:11 AM Rating: Decent
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11,576 posts
Master Shojindo wrote:
Quote:
I don't want to seem like I'm saying all of these builds are trash, I'm just looking at them relative to what other callings are doing and what is required in some endgame encounters. There are a lot of people going around posting really whacky builds claiming they're awesome for this and great for that and the one thing they can't get around is that in a PvE setting, all people want from a dps rogue is dps. And the dps just doesn't seem to happen as well for ranged rogues as it does for mages or warriors (or even clerics), and the only melee rogue build that's getting positive attention is NB.


Yeah I thought that too until I got a enough T2 to support the build. It's highly gear and crit reliant but it shines big time after you reach the break point. Before that you might as well go 51 point rng and let your pet make up for your bad gear.

I'll post the build after I test it more in greenscale this week but 800-900 single target DPS as ranged is pretty solid imo.

Not that rogues don't need love. We still do but we are scaling well with gear and raid buffs if you do the exact right thing. It's not as easy as warrior 2 button spam but they still don't have a viable ranged build so it's a trade off. Mages got hooked up and they are now right. The rest just need to be brought up to them imo.


800-900 is fine for Greenscale. We had a warrior doing 1100 during our raid rifts tonight. I got relegated to dps duty because we had 6 tanks in the raid group and with half the hit rating I should have had an a dps gearset made up of some tanking bits, a bunch of quest reward blues and the blue 2h sword from the reg CC quest, I was doing 450-500 with a build I haven't really reviewed since before the Champion nerfs. Give me the damage from my 20% miss rate and gear that reflected the content I'm running and I would have been facerolling 800-900 fairly easily. (And it's three buttons I press, tyvm :P).

You raised a very valid point, however, and that's how rogues can scale with gear. I remember at least one point when I was playing WoW where rogues were complaining about being mediocre until they reached a certain gear threshold where they went form "meh" to "not too shabby." I can kind of see that happening with rogues in Rift but I really don't like it when a class/calling is tuned that way. I'd rather see gradual progression through various stages of viability than having to struggle through until some relatively advanced stage of progression at which point all of a sudden you're adequate.

When I was leveling my rogue, I was doing warfronts until I was at risk of having quests in my log going gray. I'd go back and quest through those to get caught up and then back into warfronts. Rinse and repeat. As a result, I spent very little time doing rift-related content and arrived at 50 with very, very little planarite. After spending some time doing rifts and zone events in Stillmoor, I just recently bought the 7500 planarite focus and loaded it up with the collection of essences I had accumulated here and there. I went from (not joking) 6 STR and 6 DEX (and some trivial resists) total benefit from my old focus to 43 STR, 43 DEX, a bunch of AP and crit and even some stamina on my new one. The difference was substantial. I still get stuck on bard duty in WFs though -.-
#51 Apr 12 2011 at 7:06 AM Rating: Decent
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ASN is so dependent on crit rate it's a bit silly. I can kill leathers and clothies pretty easily on my own but once I get into a raid group with the crit and dex buffs my attacks go from ~200 to over 400 with 1500 damage finishers and people drop much more quickly ;)
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