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#52 Apr 12 2011 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
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Raid encounters encourage Min/Max.

Unless you specifically design a raid to be punitive to glass cannons who fail to spec into survival or damage reduction, it will eventually boil down to cookie cutter builds that are spreadsheeted and live tested to push the most DPS/Heals in relation to gear.
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#53 Apr 12 2011 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
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bodhisattva wrote:
Raid encounters encourage Min/Max.

Unless you specifically design a raid to be punitive to glass cannons who fail to spec into survival or damage reduction, it will eventually boil down to cookie cutter builds that are spreadsheeted and live tested to push the most DPS/Heals in relation to gear.


It's honestly only a matter of time before this happens. Now that people are more actively using parses to check dps I can already see my guild going back to the familiar road of min/max no tolerance rule.

The second I hit 50 and have the gear the first thing I'm going to do is start testing specs out on dummies because I really just need to know what will do the most dps.
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#54 Apr 12 2011 at 11:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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ArexLovesPie wrote:
bodhisattva wrote:
Raid encounters encourage Min/Max.

Unless you specifically design a raid to be punitive to glass cannons who fail to spec into survival or damage reduction, it will eventually boil down to cookie cutter builds that are spreadsheeted and live tested to push the most DPS/Heals in relation to gear.


It's honestly only a matter of time before this happens. Now that people are more actively using parses to check dps I can already see my guild going back to the familiar road of min/max no tolerance rule.

The second I hit 50 and have the gear the first thing I'm going to do is start testing specs out on dummies because I really just need to know what will do the most dps.


The complaining about it has certainly already started on the forums. In the eyes of some, the "elitists" have been ruining the game since before it was launched. And it's the same old arguments that have been put forward for years.

Oddly enough, when the game was in beta testing there was a substantial controversy over whether or not Rift would support addons. For many, "addon" is synonymous with dps meter. The devs made a statement regarding addons and their position was that they didn't want to put forward a mediocre API that would lead to all kinds of issues including addons that trivialize encounters, addons that cause issues with system resources (memory leaks, bloated requirements, etc.) and addons that would cause gameplay issues (buggy addons causing crashes, etc.)

Somehow, the anti-addon crowd saw that as Trion stating that they would not be supporting addons at any time, yet around the same time they made that statement, the devs added the /combatlog command to dump combat logs to a text file. Well, when the anti-addon crowd got word that people were running external parsers...amg...the rage and demands to ban the "cheaters" were relentless. It took several weeks of linking statements directly from the devs saying that addon support was, in fact, under development, etc. etc. before the majority of the anti-addon folks finally shut up.

I'm already seeing people showing up to T1/T2 dungeons with builds that boggle the mind. I'm all for freedom and an opportunity to be a little creative in building your character the way you like, but at the end of the day it still comes down to the numbers and not every build will produce enough of the right kinds of numbers to allow a group to succeed. I've had so many warden clerics insist they can heal T2 dungeons by themselves that I'm now forced to wait for bodhi to build his cleric as a warden and come here with a build and a method and prove that they're capable, because none of the ones I've had trying to heal me have been up to the task. I grow weary of listening to people drone on and on and on about how awesome their build is and they can do this and they can do that and when it's crunch time and they actually have to perform, it's just a big ol' pile of mediocrity that doesn't get the job done.

Funny how it works out, though, because the most mediocre performers are the ones who are the most militant and assertive in trying to force their way of playing down everyone else' throat. I just do my thing. I do okay at doing my thing and I love learning new ways to do my thing that let me do it even better. But gawd help me if I ever suggest to someone that they aren't performing at a level that would allow the group to succeed. Who needs objectivity when you've got indignant rage?
#55 Apr 13 2011 at 6:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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I like people that whine about cookie cutter builds and min/maxing.

Unsurprisingly when you create a task that requires N > 1 people to complete it people attempt to complete it as efficiently as possible so as not to anger their social group. It doesn't encourage min/maxing as much as it encourages efficiency. Min/maxing is just a result of that.

That's exactly why I don't PvE dungeoneer. You can't win the day through being clever. You win the day by figuring out the optimal place to stand and the optimal order of buttons to push and you repeat that over and over until you get it right every time. Thanks to the internet you don't even have to figure that stuff out. You just wait a week and someone else will do a writeup on it or make a mod that tells you what to do and when.
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#56 Apr 13 2011 at 8:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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SwiftAusterity wrote:

That's exactly why I don't PvE dungeoneer. You can't win the day through being clever. You win the day by figuring out the optimal place to stand and the optimal order of buttons to push and you repeat that over and over until you get it right every time.


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#57 Apr 13 2011 at 9:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Funny thing is with all the advancement the genre has made in the past 30 years it's virtually the same in "high end pve". You get your sanc and golden buffs everyone follows the fighter into the room and you either type "cast greater heal $target", "circle", "cast 'disintegrate'" or "kick" until the NPC dies.

It's slightly more complex with more buttons to press (and you don't actually need to watch scrolling text anymore) but once you've done it a few times it's the same thing.
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#58 Apr 13 2011 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
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SwiftAusterity wrote:
I like people that whine about cookie cutter builds and min/maxing.

Unsurprisingly when you create a task that requires N > 1 people to complete it people attempt to complete it as efficiently as possible so as not to anger their social group. It doesn't encourage min/maxing as much as it encourages efficiency. Min/maxing is just a result of that.

That's exactly why I don't PvE dungeoneer. You can't win the day through being clever. You win the day by figuring out the optimal place to stand and the optimal order of buttons to push and you repeat that over and over until you get it right every time. Thanks to the internet you don't even have to figure that stuff out. You just wait a week and someone else will do a writeup on it or make a mod that tells you what to do and when.


I had a lot of fun through the beta and into headstart going into dungeons without any kind of guide and learning the fights on the fly. It was probably the most fun I have had in an MMO in years. Now, it's honestly getting a little old. Everything has a guide somewhere, but not all of the guides are good which makes it even worse. Or the guide doesn't take into account changes that have been made regarded mob mechanics. And the end result is almost always an argument when that one guy in the group insists we do it the way the guide says when the guide no longer applies. Or someone got carried by an optimal group who did it a certain way, therefore we should do it that way even though our group isn't set up to succeed with that method. There's a lot to be said about the fun of creative problem solving, although it's also clear that a lot of people are neither creative nor particularly adept at solving problems.

Interesting example: My warrior was created as a tank character. I didn't level as a tank but I always had a tank set for dungeons and everything I've done at 50 has been focused around gearing him to tank. Then out of nowhere I start hearing all this rabble that warriors can't tank Lord Greenscale. I was a bit concerned. "You need a Riftstalker to tank Greenscale" they said. What? What is it about Riftstalkers that make them the only calling/soul that can tank Greenscale? "Greenscale's breath hits a warrior for 5k but a Riftstalker will only take 2800."

What? What has a Riftstalker got that gives them so much better magic damage reduction? "They umm...they've got...ummm...they just take less damage."

I had to dig...and dig...and thoroughly review the riftstalker soul...and dig some more...to find out what a Riftstalker has that a warrior doesn't. Nobody knew. Everyone who ever brought it up all just insisted you need a Riftstalker for that fight. Period. No questions. Why?

Because they read it in a guide. They couldn't speak to the mechanics. They couldn't explain why a Riftstalker took less damage. They just read it in a guide therefore it must be true and we must observe the wisdom contained in this guide in order to be successful.

The fact of the matter is that a Riftstalker does soak a lot of damage in that fight, but so can a pally/void knight/reaver build with heavy emphasis on magic and overall damage reduction. The primary difference is that a riftstalker doesn't have to sacrifice any physical mitigation to get their damage reduction, whereas a pally/VK/reaver will have to put something like 23 points into VK to maximize their damage reduction which will come at the expense of some physical DR (compared to more points in pally and warlord instead of VK). So in the eyes of many, it went from "Riftstalker has an advantage" to "Riftstalker is the only viable option" because that's what they read in a guide somewhere.
#59 Apr 13 2011 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
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SwiftAusterity wrote:
Funny thing is with all the advancement the genre has made in the past 30 years it's virtually the same in "high end pve". You get your sanc and golden buffs everyone follows the fighter into the room and you either type "cast greater heal $target", "circle", "cast 'disintegrate'" or "kick" until the NPC dies.

It's slightly more complex with more buttons to press (and you don't actually need to watch scrolling text anymore) but once you've done it a few times it's the same thing.


Yeah, I agree. And for the most part, once you've been in a particular area more than once or twice it gets old quick.
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#60 Apr 13 2011 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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You have to expect that things are going to lose their flavor over time. You can't run the same thing over and over without ever getting sick of it. It really is the mmorpg model that you need to continuously provide new content for your users.

But with all that said, I'm glad my guild from wow made the shift to rift. We were a world 1000 guild, so I have a pretty good idea that the people I play with aren't complete and utter mouth breathers.
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#61 Apr 13 2011 at 5:50 PM Rating: Decent
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sooo...brings me back to the OT :)

how do we stop the natural progression of Rift becoming the next WoW? how long til raids becomes gear checks r us? everyone agrees that raiding is frustrating when you can't down a boss cuz you have a couple of Johnny BadSpecs not pulling their weight. once the general population gets a hold of the parsers, definitive cookie cutter specs, and the overall need to steamroll content, that's when the so called "bad players" get ostracized and segregated.

i hope there is room for everybody in this game: from the newbie to the casual to the leet. some of my most favorite WoW memories were from valiant attempts on content. some were horrendous continued wipes, some were satisfying victories. at the end of the night we new all the same people would come back and see what we could accomplish the next day.

one way or another this is a social community, when you start chipping away at that, you lose the foundation of what makes an MMO endearing and enjoyable.
#62 Apr 13 2011 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
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tommyguns wrote:

how do we stop the natural progression of Rift becoming the next WoW? how long til raids becomes gear checks r us? everyone agrees that raiding is frustrating when you can't down a boss cuz you have a couple of Johnny BadSpecs not pulling their weight. once the general population gets a hold of the parsers, definitive cookie cutter specs, and the overall need to steamroll content, that's when the so called "bad players" get ostracized and segregated.


I'm not sure this is really possible... here's the way I see it:

Raids are frustrating if you can never win because one guy in your raid is the incarnation of suck
Raids are not satisfying if they aren't sufficiently difficult
If raids are too easy they aren't satisfying to the people who really care about PvE endgame progression and so that progression becomes meaningless (everyone can do it so it might as well not even be there)
If raids are too hard only the bleeding edge best of the best players can ever complete them... this is no good too because then you've got about 0.5% of your players ever seeing that content and the rest are just beating their faces against something they'll never complete.

So you need a balance. If other games are any indication, this is an immensely difficult balance to strike, if not totally impossible
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#63 Apr 13 2011 at 6:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
[...]

Because they read it in a guide. They couldn't speak to the mechanics. They couldn't explain why a Riftstalker took less damage. They just read it in a guide therefore it must be true and we must observe the wisdom contained in this guide in order to be successful.

[...]


This. A thousand times this. One of the biggest problems occurring is crossing the line from guide to brainwashing. In the end people are -- in many cases -- reading how others deal with the problem, not how the problem actually works.
#64 Apr 14 2011 at 1:48 AM Rating: Decent
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tommyguns wrote:
sooo...brings me back to the OT :)

how do we stop the natural progression of Rift becoming the next WoW? how long til raids becomes gear checks r us? everyone agrees that raiding is frustrating when you can't down a boss cuz you have a couple of Johnny BadSpecs not pulling their weight. once the general population gets a hold of the parsers, definitive cookie cutter specs, and the overall need to steamroll content, that's when the so called "bad players" get ostracized and segregated.

i hope there is room for everybody in this game: from the newbie to the casual to the leet. some of my most favorite WoW memories were from valiant attempts on content. some were horrendous continued wipes, some were satisfying victories. at the end of the night we new all the same people would come back and see what we could accomplish the next day.

one way or another this is a social community, when you start chipping away at that, you lose the foundation of what makes an MMO endearing and enjoyable.


There's room for everyone in the game, but there's not necessarily room for everyone in all areas of endgame content the way it's currently tuned. Whether future balancing passes lead to dungeon/raid nerfs or avenues are provided later on to progress gear beyond content without having to run that content is yet to be seen. (aka allowing players to prop up their performance with gear to offset what they can't do with just their builds and skill.)

DPS requirements for the first boss in Greenscale's Blight are not outrageous, but they're not exactly forgiving, either. Most people are going to struggle to meet those requirements. There's really no way the devs can avoid that (unless they want faceroll and non-faceroll versions of every encounter ala hardmodes). If they tune raid content so that Joe Buttersheep and his jolly clan of underperformers can clear raid content with nothing more than good intentions and a few hundred Plaques of Achievement, the higher end of raiders are going to leave. Endgame is supposed to be challenging and we're given the tools to overcome those challenges. If someone doesn't want to make use of those tools and up their game to meet the challenge, they've got no reason to expect to succeed. I don't care if someone in our raid wants to come as a 22 shaman/22 justicar/22 purifier and fill a dps role...as long as they can pull off the 800dps sustained required by the content. There's still room to be creative with builds but people have to combine intelligent choices with that creativity. It's not about playing exactly the way you want to play, it's about having the freedom to make choices and come up with something you enjoy that can also perform, and that's all it needs to be.
#65 Apr 14 2011 at 1:59 AM Rating: Good
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Ravashack wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
[...]

Because they read it in a guide. They couldn't speak to the mechanics. They couldn't explain why a Riftstalker took less damage. They just read it in a guide therefore it must be true and we must observe the wisdom contained in this guide in order to be successful.

[...]


This. A thousand times this. One of the biggest problems occurring is crossing the line from guide to brainwashing. In the end people are -- in many cases -- reading how others deal with the problem, not how the problem actually works.


I had a bit of a disagreement with a guy a week or so ago in expert Runic Descent when we got to Rictus with a warrior in the group who had no ranged build. One of our healers insisted that we should be using the strategy commonly employed by groups who can have everyone but the tank stay at range and still be able to do what they need to do...a strategy that doesn't work at all if you have one or more melee dps in the group. And no matter how I tried to get it across to him that his approach was not applicable to our situation, he just kept on about it because that's what his last group did and that's what he read on the forums and why are we doing it this way it's so much easier to do it the other way and...

Very frustrating. At the end of the day it's a game and you don't really want to be going off on someone in a 5-man dungeon because they're being painfully obtuse, but it gets old.

The newest thing in dungeon idiocy these days is insisting on a warrior tank with 20 points into paragon for Way of the Mountain in order to do the twin manticores fight in expert King's Breach. Because I'm thrilled about setting aside a role slot to dump 20 points in a dps soul as part of a tanking build for one 5-man encounter. But it's becoming more and more common. First I saw it on the forums when someone was asking how to handle the fight. Then last night I saw it in-game when expert KB was the daily T1. "LF1M eKB daily need tank (must have paragon knockback build)". I about pooped my pants with a sad mix of mirth and incredulous shock.
#66 Apr 14 2011 at 8:01 AM Rating: Decent
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You can't stop people from wanting to do such things. The only way to avoid the behavior and social engineering that occurs because of multi-person dungeon encounters is to not have them in the game, not participate in them or find a core group of people that is in it for the fun of playing.

That's why I like playing pvp, diablo, or my own game designs. Scripted encounters can't evolve over time. Dynamic encounters (invasion rifts being as close as we can get in pve here) encourage dynamic tactics.

Sadly even with an entirely dynamic system people still get miffed because it's exploitable. It's also hella expensive to maintain a dynamic system which I fear will kill gw2 soon after it comes out if we end up getting what they're promising.
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#67 Apr 14 2011 at 8:01 AM Rating: Good
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you dont need that ability if you know where to tank him.

there are a couple options. people like using the hollowed tree, but i find it has a lot of visibility issues. If you tank with your back to one of the pillar things where they spawn you can also avoid getting knocked around. Granted you still take the damage from the knockback ability, but who cares.
#68 Apr 14 2011 at 9:00 AM Rating: Decent
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KTurner wrote:
you dont need that ability if you know where to tank him.

there are a couple options. people like using the hollowed tree, but i find it has a lot of visibility issues. If you tank with your back to one of the pillar things where they spawn you can also avoid getting knocked around. Granted you still take the damage from the knockback ability, but who cares.


I used to tank them with my back to the death creep pillar thing closest to Mondrach because Mondrach doesn't move, but if I could get Autoch in the right position, I could still catch Mondrach with Light's Decree procs of Autoch and it was enough to hold threat through heals. The difficulty with that strategy is that it depends a great deal on how lucky you are with Autoch's knockbacks off the pull. It's very easy to get bounced out of position and often only have a certain amount of time to get into position before healer threat outstrips whatever you can do while trying to set up.

Not all that long ago the fight was tweaked to make Autoch more aggressive with the knockbacks. (They also either broke his damage mechanics or intentionally buffed them and wound up nerfing them again a couple of days later.) I just found after a couple of runs that tanking against the death creep pillar was too much hit-and-miss so I started using the notch in the tree stump. I agree with the visibility issues; it basically forces you into 1st person viewing mode and requires that you adjust your camera every time you want to target Mondrach and then adjust it back to target Autoch. It's viable but it's still messy. I'm just not a big fan of the encounter in general. It's a tank check fight that strikes me as horribly obnoxious. Stun off the pull followed by frequent knockbacks and a mob that you can't move who is easily capable of killing a healer in a matter of seconds if you lose control of it.
#69 Apr 14 2011 at 9:03 AM Rating: Good
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Thats funny, i found Konstantin to be much more of a tank check than the manticores haha. Took me a good 7 or 8 wipes to get konstantin's spike dancing down.
#70 Apr 14 2011 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
We LoS the caster with the tree stump and tank mister chargy against it. It can either work really clean with a good group, or you can have screaming about the tank being out of LoS for heals and general fail panic.

I mostly run with my guild though so sometimes we just run right in and heal through the mess on that one if we have our pro healers in the group.


Konstantin though right after that patch that made his enrage hit for 5k a swipe was hilarious. Normally we had just tanked him in between two circles and ran back and forth for spikes. Then our normal rock solid tank dropped like a rock when he went Letreas Jr on him lol.


We finally figured out to kite that move which is one option. The other is use an offensive dispel like warlock consume and bye bye boss buff. :)

Edited, Apr 14th 2011 9:36am by Shojindo
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#71 Apr 14 2011 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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KTurner wrote:
Thats funny, i found Konstantin to be much more of a tank check than the manticores haha. Took me a good 7 or 8 wipes to get konstantin's spike dancing down.



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#72 Apr 14 2011 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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naturally. You're my little good luck charm. <3




























/gag




#73 Apr 14 2011 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
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KTurner wrote:
Thats funny, i found Konstantin to be much more of a tank check than the manticores haha. Took me a good 7 or 8 wipes to get konstantin's spike dancing down.


I find Konstantine to be a really straightforward fight. In fact, once any group I'm with is past the manticores, I usually consider the run to be done minus some trivial details and additional lewtz. I've tried LoSing Mondrach before but I just can't seem to teach the people I run with that LoS in Rift means EVERYONE, not just the tank. Drives me up the wall when I get what would have otherwise been a clean pull and some beastmaster is standing there like a dunce with his pet out in full view of the mobs and the threat bug kicks in and botches my pull. Or I'll tell the group I'm LoSing a trash pull and they're all like, "Okay, I'll just stand here and buff you and load you up with HoTs...AMG WHY THEY ARE SMASH MY FACE?!?!"

(Truly, it was so bad that I actually made a pally/warlord build for Intercept just so I can at least try to protect my healers from their own silliness.)
#74 Apr 15 2011 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I too am very impressed at how fast they are fixing issues in the game. I played wow from week one and continued playing for four years. I remember when wow added the ( help I'm stuck button ). This game is off to a great start!!!!
#75 Apr 15 2011 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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I am fine with Min/Max.

As long as they avoid the homogenization of tanks & healers that happened in WoW. Also the dichotomy of Easy/Hard content and 10/25 man raiding. It quickly became so easy was steamrolled and unenjoyable and hard wasn't really hard but rather normal level difficulty with a few trophy bosses thrown in for top end guilds.

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#76 Apr 15 2011 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good
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So.... what server did you roll on Bodh?
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