Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Is Rogue tanking viable for end-game?Follow

#1 Apr 20 2011 at 2:16 AM Rating: Decent
2 posts
I felt like playing something different in RIFT, but I still kind of want to tank, and I do like the fact that I can also be a support role with Bard. But is rogue an acceptable class for tanking?
#2 Apr 20 2011 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
**
272 posts
Riftstalker main gets the most universal passive damage soak of any possible class in the game. Warriors generally have to choose physical or non-physical if they want to stack it high.
____________________________
Always check for black-on-black text.
#3 Apr 23 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
Sage
*
130 posts
Absolutely viable.

All the tanks are somewhat gear dependent so you need to gear up your tank before tanking the T1/T2 dungeons. What I did on my rogue was doing dungeons as DPS/Bard and gear myself up as tank.

Rogues can tank any content in Rift. They are not easy to play well though, so start early :)

#4 Apr 23 2011 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
*
63 posts
I have a lvl 50 reftstalker/bd/bard... working on gear for T1 content. I havent had a single complaint from healers and i've been able to keep going after a healers death for quite some time.

I dont find RS tanking hard, but its not as easy as some of the tanking in wow. I have a spammable macro for point generation and threat generation (your 2 aoe threat generators and phatom blow, the aoe ones have a CD so it works great)... about 3 finishers to chose from (i dont really use dps finishers unless were doing alot of trash)... and a bunch of cooldowns i pop a different times depending on the fight and the healer.
#5 Apr 23 2011 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
*
144 posts
I don't want to hijack the post, but thought it related enough to ask it here.

I hear bladedancer is the best secondary soul for rougue tanking, why is this? And what are viable third choices? I'm guessing bard is one, with Saboteur as an interesting choice, but what about the DPS souls, would they help or hinder?
#6 Apr 23 2011 at 9:16 PM Rating: Good
***
1,422 posts
(just my two cents, I have yet to do any kind of endgame type stuff on my Rogue)
Bladedancer gets some nice bonuses to Dodge, plus Strike Back (50/100% chance to counter with both weapons after dodging), Reprisal (GCD-free dodge/parry reaction), and False Blade, and all those are from the first two tiers. There's more avoidance-related goodness if you're willing to go deeper into the Bladedancer tree, but IMO, while dodge/parry is nice, it's too streaky to rely on, especially if you don't know your healer.
____________________________
FFXIV: Raji Skybrand (Leviathan)
Give a man a fish, he'll be fed for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll scream "F*** off noob, I know what I'm doing!" and continue to do it wrong.
#7 Apr 24 2011 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
*
63 posts
Quote:
Bladedancer gets some nice bonuses to Dodge, plus Strike Back (50/100% chance to counter with both weapons after dodging), Reprisal (GCD-free dodge/parry reaction), and False Blade, and all those are from the first two tiers. There's more avoidance-related goodness if you're willing to go deeper into the Bladedancer tree, but IMO, while dodge/parry is nice, it's too streaky to rely on, especially if you don't know your healer.


ya... I'm going to have to explain why this is kind of bad advice. There were alot of tanks in wow that thought like this... and its wrong

as a RS your a mitigation tank through armor and dmg abs shields... with BD you add in some really good avoidance tanking, and i've yet to see a RS build that didnt have some pretty deep specing into BD, (except for the 51 rs build... and I've watched them die a couple of times for luls) because basically thats what BD was made for.

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1MpVc.xIt0uqzokkR.E0kV0c00M.xh

thats my build... its one of the more popular tanking builds for rogues. In my gear i end up with about 30 to 40% of dmg avoided with the ability to increase that by poping a cool down to 80 to 90%. That combined with gear dmg abs around 35% and the barriers makes tanking pretty easy.
Since i also play a healer on my mage and when i was in wow, i know just how much healers love avoidance over mitigation.(i actually liked healing DK and Bear tanks if they were geared right)

Also the only way i see it, for tanking, trion is right in saying the Bard is a good combo as well. With 8 points you get 10% more health and 3% decreased chance the mob will hit you... no DPS soul will have a comparable effect.

For tanking, if you new to it on the rogue, do this

macro shadow blitz, rift disturbance, and phantom blow to 1 button... this is your point generator and threat generator... this way you always AOE tank to your max (i never use CC cause CC is for noobs (jk))
first 5 points- if chloro do a Rift Gaurd finisher (chloro's start up healing is a little less than the clerics, so sometimes they need a little help)
otherwise get gaurded steel up (or if the chloro is doing good and you feel safe doing it)
next 5 points after gaurded steel is up get false blade up.

when i tank, i never worry about dps... after all... im a tank. So i always finish with Rift Gaurd, unless its a non elite trash pull (use compound attack) or i finish with one of the 2 60min buffs you should keep up

Plane shift as you see fit... i usually dont have to, shadow blitz gives you some nice abs when it goes off... If the boss is one that you have to move alot, i use shift to move him usually.

#8 Apr 25 2011 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
21 posts
RajiFarlander wrote:
(just my two cents, I have yet to do any kind of endgame type stuff on my Rogue)
Bladedancer gets some nice bonuses to Dodge, plus Strike Back (50/100% chance to counter with both weapons after dodging), Reprisal (GCD-free dodge/parry reaction), and False Blade, and all those are from the first two tiers. There's more avoidance-related goodness if you're willing to go deeper into the Bladedancer tree, but IMO, while dodge/parry is nice, it's too streaky to rely on, especially if you don't know your healer.


Im going to agree with RajiFarlander here. While I dont play a rogue, a RL friend that I play with every week does and we go over his build a lot. He does most of our tanking for our 5man dungeons. I dont do any raiding so I cant comment on that. I will say that if you go to Soul Builder and do Builds by Calling, Rogue, Tank, Riftstalker you will see that the top two builds in popularity both have 51 in Riftstalker. Dont look at the ratings cause they where only rated by 3 people. Every point in Riftstalker gives increased Mitigation and Health pool.
#9 Apr 25 2011 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
*
63 posts
... There is no explanation of the popularity ranking...
every point i dont spend in RS are points not spent on dps based branches... and the roots i miss out on are an AOE taunt, which is probably the most missed taught, but not a big issue since i never have issue with AOE aggro. Defer death which would be a nice cool down to have and Scatter Shadows... 3secs of immunity from dmg with a 2min CD.

I feel that an extra 6% avoidance (not including how ever much you get from 15% more dex)as well as the addition of a silence/interrupt into your abilities will add up in a longer fight...
51 may be good for 5mans... but so is 36/22/8. But I feel that for optimization, the numbers favor the 36/22/8
#10 Apr 25 2011 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
21 posts
TheRocky wrote:
... There is no explanation of the popularity ranking...
every point i dont spend in RS are points not spent on dps based branches...


First off, Im not attacking your build. I was stating my opinion from healing a rogue tank (not even playing one myself)

You are right, there is no explanation of how they got the popularity rankings but it has to be better than the random judgement of 3 people, if not the both are useless tools.

Extra points spend in Riftstalker help though the talents Improved Rift Guard and Improved Guardian Phase both of which help with (what I find) the spike damage rogues take. Your build loses 7.5 % mitigation and 15% endurance for 6% Parry and 15% DEX. Personally I think the Mitigation/endurace is better but to each his own. Also you lose out on the root abilities.

All builds mentioned work for 5man Dungeons. I prefer my tank have the strait mitigation, but thats a personal preference as a healer. I already stated that since I'm not doing any raiding I don't have any useful input.
#11 Apr 25 2011 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
*
63 posts
Quote:
Your build loses 7.5 % mitigation and 15% endurance for 6% Parry and 15% DEX. Personally I think the Mitigation/endurace is better but to each his own. Also you lose out on the root abilities.


The mitigation lose is through rift guard, which isn't clear on whether or not the dmg abs is pre or post armor.... logically it could go either way, is the shield around the rogue and armor, or just between the rogue and armor, at the same time it increases the amount of dmg it will soak up. In my experience ... rift guard doesn't exactly stay up to long which makes me think its applied pre armor abs. Still good skill, and the additional buff is probably helpful.

The 15% endurance seems like a steep lost... and ya spike dmg can really suck, but this problem existed in wow, where tanks focused to much on stam and mitigation tanking and forgot about he ability to potentially avoid melee dmg (which in my experiance is typically the highest amounts of dmg). Don't get me wrong, a nice meat shield is worthwhile.

But a couple other attractive features of the 33/22/8 build is an extra 1% chance decrease in the chance a mob will hit you, the additional 5% hit so you make your hits hit more often, and the refund of energy after a finisher. Most of these things seem menial, but the increase in parry and dodge increase the availability of reprisal which gives you essentially a free combo point, you also start off with more energy after a finisher. Which means you build up combo points faster, which means rift guard can be used more often. Now in some fights this would be a mute advantage... but in fights with high spike dmg, the ability to refresh a 5 point rift guard faster could equate to more mitigation in the long run.

Now odds are you've healed the type of tank you are pro for... I've got a healer as well, and unluckly hardly ever run across rogue tanks. But, judging from using my tank and the healer's response, I feel that if played right, my RS build would be just as loved, if not loved more, than a 51 point build.
#12 Apr 27 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
21 posts
TheRocky wrote:
... rift guard doesn't exactly stay up to long which makes me think its applied pre armor abs.
My rogue tank doesnt have a problem keeping it up, with the exception that there is not an indicator for how much it has left on it. He isnt too fond of that.
TheRocky wrote:
this problem existed in wow, where tanks focused to much on stam and mitigation tanking and forgot about he ability to potentially avoid melee dmg (which in my experiance is typically the highest amounts of dmg)

Im not sure I understand what your saying here. Mitigation is Mitigation, Where its from Armor, Strait Mitigation, dodge, or parry. As a healer, Strait Mitigation or Armor is far more consistent. Most healers would rather you have that over the dodge and parry due to spikes. But in the long run they are the same.
TheRocky wrote:
But a couple other attractive features of the 33/22/8 build is an extra 1% chance decrease in the chance a mob will hit you,
Street Smart is an ability that we dont know how it works either. If a mob has a high enough chance to hit that it pushes misses off the table this might not help. For example: Mob has %12 Increase chance to hit, but only %8 is needed to push misses off the table then that talent wont help at all. Until people have learned more about how the system works we wont be sure how much that helps. Also I have no experiance with high end raiding but I hear tanks can get enough toughness to push crits off the table as well. This would really negate that talents value until we learn more.
TheRocky wrote:
the additional 5% hit so you make your hits hit more often, and the refund of energy after a finisher. Most of these things seem menial, but the increase in parry and dodge increase the availability of reprisal which gives you essentially a free combo point, you also start off with more energy after a finisher. Which means you build up combo points faster, which means rift guard can be used more often. Now in some fights this would be a mute advantage... but in fights with high spike dmg, the ability to refresh a 5 point rift guard faster could equate to more mitigation in the long run.
You build would have a %2 increase chance to hit, Which i do agree is ****. If you can push misses off the table then aggro shouldnt be an issue. Both builds would have Reprisal. And while getting 15 energy back on a finisher would let you refreash Rift guard faster. Having 75% more of your health on your rift guard would make it less likely you have to refreash it.
TheRocky wrote:
Now odds are you've healed the type of tank you are pro for... I've got a healer as well, and unluckly hardly ever run across rogue tanks. But, judging from using my tank and the healer's response, I feel that if played right, my RS build would be just as loved, if not loved more, than a 51 point build.
While I have my preferences, my rogue tank started out with a build much like yours. 44 RS/ 22 BD, and we have been tweeking it. First thing I realized we needed was more life so more Riftstalker and Bard came into it. But I have healed it both ways. I will agree both builds can be just as loved. We all have varity of play styles so that has to be taken into account. I just think that a 51 point rift builds are a very effective build also.
#13 Apr 28 2011 at 9:35 AM Rating: Decent
40 posts
wouldn't it be worth it to go 12 points into bard for Motif of Tenacity and Anthem of Glory?

Edited, Apr 28th 2011 11:38am by stewewewewism
#14 Apr 29 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
21 posts
stewewewewism wrote:
wouldn't it be worth it to go 12 points into bard for Motif of Tenacity and Anthem of Glory?

Edited, Apr 28th 2011 11:38am by stewewewewism

I dont think you would want to be using GCD on putting up Motifs every 15 to 30 sec. But Anthem you only need 6 pts in so its a worth while talent. Right now my tank is using THIS for tanking. As you see it has Anthem.

You can get other mitigation that is passive and not using a GCD with Riftstalker or Bladedancer with those points instead of Bard.
#15 Apr 30 2011 at 3:45 PM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
For the question as to rather go mitigation or avoidance, I as a healer prefer you as a tank take the least amount of damage possible and preferably never have big spikes. So I guess I'm saying do both. If you rely heavily on Dodge/Parry but have little in the way of armor and magical resistances, then when you DO get hit it's gonna hurt bad and make my job as a healer difficult. The best way to approach it IMO is to work on getting both mitigation and avoidance stats up as high as possible, until you reach diminishing returns (remember you only need enough HP to survive the big whammy attack that's usually not very often and tank gear has plenty of End on it).

Personally I think Rogues can easily = a Warrior or Cleric in tanking, even without a shield. The sheer % of damage reduction they gain is crazy high. I ran eFC with a very under geared Rogue (and with zero toughness) and even though we thought trash would rape his face off, he even did fine on Boss fights. He was a little difficult to heal with no toughness but compared to say a Cleric or Warrior with no tough he did great. In fact I've tried healing a Warrior with only a little toughness in eIT and he got demolished.
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#16 May 16 2011 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
TheRocky wrote:
I feel that an extra 6% avoidance (not including how ever much you get from 15% more dex)as well as the addition of a silence/interrupt into your abilities will add up in a longer fight...
51 may be good for 5mans... but so is 36/22/8. But I feel that for optimization, the numbers favor the 36/22/8


With only 36 in RS, Imp Rift Guard and Imp Guardian Phase are really lacking. I would never take Shadow Mastery over Rift Scavenger. A free 30% HP heal, when you can get 11K+ hp is a huge load off of the healer. Boosted Recovery, after the nerf, isn't that great either.

You also mention the added mitigation benefits from the extra dexterity from Ambidextrous. My guess would be that your dex is also ready so low that any benefit you gain is negligible.

I'm sure your spec works but it could be work better.

dhae wrote:
Right now my tank is using THIS for tanking. As you see it has Anthem.


The points in Bard are nice for more hp but Anthem of Glory only gives 627 Armor max for bards and probably only 482 for you. For my bard, 627 is roughly 3.8% less physical damage. I would have doubts that 482 would give you more than that for your tank. However, Bolster in the Ranger soul gives 4% damage reduction for physical or elemental.

tbs098 wrote:
But is rogue an acceptable class for tanking?


It's very acceptable. I've grouped with warriors, rogues and clerics as tank.
Clerics do not get any magic damage reduction and their mitigation caps really quickly. They also need to stack STR, a non-calling stat.
Warriors are great for physical damage but need to move points into another soul to reduce elemental damage.
Rogues are great all around tank out of the box. They have increased mobility that other tanks simply don't possess. However, rogues need to build combo points to keep their shields up.
#17 May 16 2011 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
*
63 posts
While it is obvious the 51 point build is popular, it is blatantly obvious the blade dancer soul was meant to go along with the rift stalker.
This game is about versatility and i find it hard to believe that Trion didnt make other options for tanking that are viable and, in some cases, better options.
My rogue is geared for Tier 1 but had issues tanking due to the stigma against rogue tanks (until dungeon finder hit the shard and pretty much abolished the choice)
I tank great... healers love me and enjoy the ease of healing me... Even in messed up situations i've managed to pull it all together

I'm not saying the 51 point build is wrong... go with it if u like it...
But i know some people will prefer to run a tank differently and will want to try a different build. And the last time i played through a dungeon (been working on my mage and warrior lately) i kept rift guard up something like 90% of the time in encounters, so the only thing i'd really be lacking from the 51 point buff is the small amount of mitigation, which i feel is made up for by all the additional avoidance and other goodies i get.

If you look at the trees closely... the spec i run with seems to be a logically deduced tanking spec Trion had determined to be an option.
#18 May 16 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
*
155 posts
Quote:
Clerics do not get any magic damage reduction and their mitigation caps really quickly.


Actually Clerics get 18% static damage reduction, to everything. And our mitigation doesn't cap any faster than any other tank, we're all effected by the same diminishing returns (except Rogue has no block). As for Clerics taking non-calling stat in Strength it only hurts us in 0.25 AP per 1 Str over 1 Wis and a tad of healing output, which even in Raid is only about ~400 HPS. Clerics Parry cap in T1 gear, will never Dodge cap (not in current content gear) and would have to stack Block/Str on every single item and be full Raid gear to reach Block cap, if we even could reach it.
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#19 May 16 2011 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
Terrorfiend
*****
12,905 posts
CheyenneGoldenleaf wrote:
stuff


Is this the old Cheyenne from the WoW hunter forums circa 2005ish?
#20 May 16 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
Repressed Memories
******
20,907 posts
So in case it hasn't been said enough, Rift stalkers are quite viable for end game tanking, and there are certain situations where they excel. #rd boss of GSB, one of the wolves is best tanked by a rogue. Lord Greenscale himself is best tanked by a rogue when all the tanks are under-geared, though as tanks increase in gear warriors becomes a more stable tank.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 13 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (13)