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so wtf is trying thinking with this new 1.2 patch?Follow

#1 Apr 22 2011 at 12:19 AM Rating: Sub-Default
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PYROMANCER
* Burning Bonds: Using this will no longer cause a pet to stop attacking an enemy if the Pyromancer has the Unbreakable Bonds ability.
* Ground of Strength: Now reduces damage received by 20% and reduces damage dealt by 10%.
* Fire Storm: Will no longer award Charge if an ability that blocks Charge generation is active. Updated description.
* Combust: Fixed an issue causing multiple stacks of the DoT effect to only deal the damage of one stack. This now works properly.


Did they not specifically tell us they were fixing pyro's? Do they not read their own forums or look at the stats in game or see which class is basically dominating right now? Do they realize how many people are on the fence right now about unsubbing from this game?

I understand these notes are not final, but how blind are these devs to what is going on in there game? Do they realize this VERY MINOR NERF was made basically pointless by the valor changes?

So instead of being glass cannons now Pyros have been made into burst tanks with incredible survivability. There is literally zero reason to enter a warfront if they are not fixed before this releases and it guarantees my unsub from this game.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2011 2:19am by Puremallace
#2 Apr 22 2011 at 4:19 AM Rating: Good
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They never said anything about nerfing pyros, which is what I assume you mean when you say "fixing".

On April 15th when the devs swarmed the forums posting their "State of the Game" threads for all kinds of different categories (dungeons, crafting, all four callings, etc.) they commented that GoS was extremely powerful and perhaps too powerful.

That was all. They never said pyro damage was too much. They said that GoS (which has no damage boost component and will carry a damage reduction component if the 1.2 changes go live) was getting touched up.

You have to remember that valor goes both ways. At rank 5/6 you'll be sporting 30% damage reduction from players with full valor kit. Combined with the increased Endurance from that gear, you won't die quite so fast.
#3 Apr 22 2011 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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Puremallace wrote:
PYROMANCER
* Ground of Strength: Now reduces damage received by 20% and reduces damage dealt by 10%.


How is that not a nerf considering it currently sets up a pyro as a stun-firing machine gun emplacement?

And seriously.. anyone who's using pyromancer balance to decide whether or not they enjoy the game enough to subscribe to it has already made that decision and they're now just looking for an excuse to do it
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#4 Apr 22 2011 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
I think Pyro's are decoy's for the real problem with PvP balance in this game. Unkillable Clerics.

Whats more dangerous? A guy with slightly to much burst that will die with some pressure and normal damage (Pyro)? Or a guy who takes 10-15x the amount of damage to kill and follows around a couple of DPS like they take hot showers together (Cleric)?

Seriously healing makes PvP in this game suck at 50. The effective health of a geared cleric or those around him is ridonkulous.

If you pay attention virtually all PvP games in Rift at 50 are decided by how many healers and especially clerics the opposing team is stacking.

A few pyro's standing in ground of geebus while silly, are not invincible force multipliers like clerics.
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#5 Apr 22 2011 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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looks like a pretty good nerf to me.
#6 Apr 22 2011 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Puremallace wrote:
PYROMANCER
* Ground of Strength: Now reduces damage received by 20% and reduces damage dealt by 10%.


How is that not a nerf considering it currently sets up a pyro as a stun-firing machine gun emplacement?

And seriously.. anyone who's using pyromancer balance to decide whether or not they enjoy the game enough to subscribe to it has already made that decision and they're now just looking for an excuse to do it


To be honest, I look at pyros as the standard of comparison for burst right now, followed by Inquisitors. And my personal stance on the matter is that if Trion wants to leave to callings with that kind of burst potential, then they might want to share the love and give that kind of potential to everyone.

It wouldn't last. It would probably break PvP. It would be a case of "he who bursts first, wins." And then they would have no choice but to tone down burst across the board with the following patch if they wanted to quell the rage within the PvP community.

Shojindo wrote:
I think Pyro's are decoy's for the real problem with PvP balance in this game. Unkillable Clerics.

Whats more dangerous? A guy with slightly to much burst that will die with some pressure and normal damage (Pyro)? Or a guy who takes 10-15x the amount of damage to kill and follows around a couple of DPS like they take hot showers together (Cleric)?

Seriously healing makes PvP in this game suck at 50. The effective health of a geared cleric or those around him is ridonkulous.

If you pay attention virtually all PvP games in Rift at 50 are decided by how many healers and especially clerics the opposing team is stacking.

A few pyro's standing in ground of geebus while silly, are not invincible force multipliers like clerics.


I did my first Codex run with my cleric yesterday (level 20). I had just respecced Warden/Purifier (from Purifier/Sentinel) to try it out. I found myself around Codex with another Warden on my side and it was staggering how difficult we could make it to kill anyone. There was one point where the other time had clearly identified the other Warden as "that guy who needs to die now", but between the two of us, he stayed alive through the combined onslaught of 7 Guardian players until we were both OOM (which took a long time). And I'm a really bad healer.

That in of itself is cause for concern and I won't dispute that. But what I have noticed on the forums and such is that people just count the bodies chasing a healer and don't take into account what is going on in the skill department. I've watched four guys on my team standing around a razorbeast pet in Black Garden whacking away at it and it took the four of them longer to kill the pet than it would have taken me to kill it by myself. I'm not exaggerating. I don't know if their hands were shaking so bad from excitement that they couldn't click accurately or if they had forgotten to train their skills or what, but I quickly learned that just seeing the bodies doesn't tell the whole story.

Clerics are powerful because they have to be, and if I can take my time on my rogue and wait for the right opportunity to strike, I can put the hurt on a cleric pretty good. I can rarely kill them by myself but with the right opener at the right time, all it would usually take is one other player on the ball to get the job done. That's not too bad.
#7 Apr 22 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Honestly clerics are silly if you have a pocket bard with you also, pyros can slam me all they want but if I just crit for 4k on my next heal it doesn't matter.

I think a lot of the "pyros are op" stems from people thinking WFs are just 1v1 battlegrounds, they are NOT, you need your team to help you in order to kill people that is just how it is.
#8 Apr 22 2011 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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pquegg wrote:
Honestly clerics are silly if you have a pocket bard with you also, pyros can slam me all they want but if I just crit for 4k on my next heal it doesn't matter.

I think a lot of the "pyros are op" stems from people thinking WFs are just 1v1 battlegrounds, they are NOT, you need your team to help you in order to kill people that is just how it is.


This. So many people go in as DPS that I am usually the only CC type on the team. >_> Sure, CC alone won't drop your HP to zero, but it's good at shutting up healers...


Edit: Because tags need a closing tag too...

Edited, Apr 22nd 2011 3:37pm by Ravashack
#9 Apr 23 2011 at 1:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Ravashack wrote:
pquegg wrote:
Honestly clerics are silly if you have a pocket bard with you also, pyros can slam me all they want but if I just crit for 4k on my next heal it doesn't matter.

I think a lot of the "pyros are op" stems from people thinking WFs are just 1v1 battlegrounds, they are NOT, you need your team to help you in order to kill people that is just how it is.


This. So many people go in as DPS that I am usually the only CC type on the team. >_> Sure, CC alone won't drop your HP to zero, but it's good at shutting up healers...


Edit: Because tags need a closing tag too...


The best, though, is when a dps cleric complains of no healing in a warfront. Love that.
#10 Apr 23 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
To be honest, I look at pyros as the standard of comparison for burst right now, followed by Inquisitors.

What? One of the weaknesses of inquisitors in pvp is their specific lack of burst. They can put out respectable dps and have a fair amount of survivability (with the option to trade as much dps for more surivival), but they can't burst anyone down. They have only 3 abilities that alloow for any kind of burst: sanction heretic, fanaticism, and BoD proc.
Shojindo wrote:
I think Pyro's are decoy's for the real problem with PvP balance in this game. Unkillable Clerics.

Well, it's not so much that clerics are unkillable as it is a combination of dps being dumb and game design making it easier for dps to be even dumber. I'm a 50 cleric with T2 gear and I regularly run WFs in my pve spec with only the base valor. I can live quite a while with a lot of people beating on me, but only if they're retarded.

Retarded is trying to outdps a character meant to heal through boss levels of damage. I don't know why dps think they should be able to put out 1500+ single target dps without raid buffs.

Before the warrior nerf I used to drop pretty much all the time whenever I was charged by a champion. It's not so much that champions did huge amounts of damage (though they kinda did), as it was being stunned and unable to heal myself. If I'm found by a voidknight or a dominator, I'm already dead. Anyone with a silence, interrupt, or healing debuff will also do terrible things to me.

The other issue is that it's hard for a pug group to coordinate. The more spread out and even the damage is, the easier it is for me to heal others or myself through it. Aside from keeping people from taking objectives, aoe damage is fairly pointless against good healers. There's nothing they can do against focus fire, as hard as that can be to pull off in a pug group it just destroys healers (I'm not even talking about killing the healers, I can't do anything against focus fire on anyone on my team).
#11 Apr 23 2011 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
To be honest, I look at pyros as the standard of comparison for burst right now, followed by Inquisitors.

What? One of the weaknesses of inquisitors in pvp is their specific lack of burst. They can put out respectable dps and have a fair amount of survivability (with the option to trade as much dps for more surivival), but they can't burst anyone down. They have only 3 abilities that alloow for any kind of burst: sanction heretic, fanaticism, and BoD proc.


Soul Drain

SP scales to damage much, much better than AP. So when people are grabbing red orbs in warfronts and gaining the 100% boost to SP/AP, mages and clerics benefit the most.
#12 Apr 23 2011 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
Retarded is trying to outdps a character meant to heal through boss levels of damage. I don't know why dps think they should be able to put out 1500+ single target dps without raid buffs.


I agree it's a mentally deficient proposition. Let me ask you though, do you think that's good balance design for PvP in any MMO?

You are basically giving the effective health of a raid boss to the side with a cleric. If you DPS his healing target he heals it and you die from his DPS buddy. If you DPS or try to (lol) DPS/CC the healer he heals himself and you die from his DPS buddy.

DPS guy has 5-6k health and can put out about 500-700 DPS in PvP specs. Healer guy has about 150k or more effective health and can put out 100-200 dps which is irrelevant because he always has a DPS or two near him to share effective health with and they do 500-700 DPS.

The short story is PVE healing in PVP is always imbalanced and basically has always sucked.

More healers = your side wins. Especially clerics in this game becuase they can hybrid spec half tank/half healer virtually.

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A frog jumps into the pond,
splash! Silence again.

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#13 Apr 23 2011 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
SP scales to damage much, much better than AP. So when people are grabbing red orbs in warfronts and gaining the 100% boost to SP/AP, mages and clerics benefit the most.

Souldrain does amazing damage, and benefits a huge amount from fanaticism because it causes all hits to crit. The only problem is you will almost never be able to get it off in a Warfront.

1) It has a two second cast time. There are plenty of longer casting spells, but that compounds with two other issues.
2) It has a 7 meter range. You must be right in teh thick of things to use your two second cast time ability.
3) It only does good damage when it bounces, meaning you have two have at least 2 people withing seven meters of you to make it worthwhile.

I experimented with it, and while the damage is great, if I didn't die while suing it I died almost immediately after. Overall my dps took a dump because I spent less time in the fight.
#14 Apr 23 2011 at 7:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
SP scales to damage much, much better than AP. So when people are grabbing red orbs in warfronts and gaining the 100% boost to SP/AP, mages and clerics benefit the most.

Souldrain does amazing damage, and benefits a huge amount from fanaticism because it causes all hits to crit. The only problem is you will almost never be able to get it off in a Warfront.

1) It has a two second cast time. There are plenty of longer casting spells, but that compounds with two other issues.
2) It has a 7 meter range. You must be right in teh thick of things to use your two second cast time ability.
3) It only does good damage when it bounces, meaning you have two have at least 2 people withing seven meters of you to make it worthwhile.

I experimented with it, and while the damage is great, if I didn't die while suing it I died almost immediately after. Overall my dps took a dump because I spent less time in the fight.


I'm not suggesting that it's easy to roflstomp people with Soul Drain. I'm saying that it's possible. I'm saying that Inquisitors are capable of running into a crowd of players and functionally one-shotting four of them with an ability on a 2s cast with a 10s CD. Neither rogues nor warriors have anything close to that kind of burst potential. Pyros have it easier, but it's mostly the potential that has people upset.
#15 Apr 23 2011 at 8:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Master Shojindo wrote:
Quote:
Retarded is trying to outdps a character meant to heal through boss levels of damage. I don't know why dps think they should be able to put out 1500+ single target dps without raid buffs.


I agree it's a mentally deficient proposition. Let me ask you though, do you think that's good balance design for PvP in any MMO?


I can't speak for this game with any kind of authority from my lofty position as a level 24, but it stands to reason that Allegory's point is a general truth: Remember people, guns don't kill healers. CC kills healers.

If Rift is deficient in CC, as I've heard people say, then I agree you have a point. Otherwise I would hazard a guess that the team with the most and wisest application of CC beats the team with the most healers.
#16 Apr 23 2011 at 9:09 PM Rating: Good
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Rift has a decent amount of CC. I'd be happy with them toning down the length in warfronts though. 10 seconds fears, eh not for me.
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#17 Apr 23 2011 at 9:17 PM Rating: Good
Teacake remember your protadin healer build before they nerfed it in WoW?

It's about like that. ;) I'm not giving up hope mind you just observing the things that need to be balanced better at 50 for PvP.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2011 11:17pm by Shojindo
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#18 Apr 23 2011 at 10:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
I'm not suggesting that it's easy to roflstomp people with Soul Drain. I'm saying that it's possible. I'm saying that Inquisitors are capable of running into a crowd of players and functionally one-shotting four of them with an ability on a 2s cast with a 10s CD. Neither rogues nor warriors have anything close to that kind of burst potential. Pyros have it easier, but it's mostly the potential that has people upset.

Ok, quite a bit of fallacy here.

1) One shotting? My cleric has 950 SP in T2 gear, and I was using a 44 inquisitor build (with points in sentinel for 20% bonus crit). Souldrain does 520 a hit, and assuming I get the bounce it will do 1040 to a person. With all my bonus crit it does 950 a crit, and so 1900 damage on fanaticism crits. The only person that move will one shot is me for trying to use it.

My normal Sanction heretic hits for 735, and crits for 1400. My normal BoD hits for 792 and crits for 1500. BoD has a 30% chance to proc off of Sanction heretic. So every 45 seconds I can force Sanction heretic to crit and if I'm lucky I can follow it up with a BoD proc. So every 45 seconds I can burst someone for about 1450, if I'm really lucky I have a proc and can do 2200. That is the extent of my burst damage.
Shojindo wrote:
You are basically giving the effective health of a raid boss to the side with a cleric. If you DPS his healing target he heals it and you die from his DPS buddy. If you DPS or try to (lol) DPS/CC the healer he heals himself and you die from his DPS buddy.

Gee, so a dps guy is losing 1v2? That's so unfair!
Shojindo wrote:
DPS guy has 5-6k health and can put out about 500-700 DPS in PvP specs. Healer guy has about 150k or more effective health and can put out 100-200 dps which is irrelevant because he always has a DPS or two near him to share effective health with and they do 500-700 DPS.

You're not being honest about the situation, and you're still stuck in the mentality of trying to outdps a healer. First of all, if you could outdps a healer, then it would mean healers would be entirely worthless, and the game would be completely broken for them. It is a necessity for them to be able to outheal any single dps.

Second, you don't seem to understand the kinds of problems healers have and how to take advantage of them. As a DPS, your actual base DPS doesn't matter much. I can probably out HPS the best geared and specced single target DPS in the game. You don't beat me by trying to win a game I was designed to win. You beat me through target switching, burst, and focus fire.

1) Target switching. In order for me to heal someone I have to first realize they're taking damage, and then have the delay between that and when my spell goes off. For Sentinels and Purifiers, their big heals take 3 seconds to cast. As a warden I can get some decent healing on a target faster, but it takes me a full 9.5 seconds to get my full healing potential rolling on a single target. If you find the target you're attacking is receiving a lot of heals, then stop attacking him. Nothing makes my job easier than orderly, predictable damage. If you switch targets I'm stuck wasting a lot of time cancelling my heals to go to a enw target, wasting cooldowns by overhealing when I thought he'd be taking more damage, or just plain ******** up and failing to get their in time.

2) Burst damage. Your DPS isn't what kills players. Players die because they have small hp windows. The faster you can drop 4k hp the faster they die. When I play my inquisitor dps I tend to probe a lot of players. I dot them up, tack on some steady DPS, and if I find they aren't getting healed soon enough I commit to them with my burst.

3) Focus fire. I know it sounds annoying to tell you do do something you don't have full control over, but there is a reason I mention this. Because cooperation doesn't scale both ways. 1 healer can stop 1 dps, but 3 healers cannot stop 3 dps. There is nothing any group or any amount of healers can do against heavy single target dps. The more people on a team coordinate, the less useful healers become.

(Also 100-200 DPS is a joke. No cleric putting out respectable healing has anywhere near that DPS).
Shojindo wrote:
More healers = your side wins. Especially clerics in this game becuase they can hybrid spec half tank/half healer virtually.

DPS win Warfronts. That's just how it is. Healing only keeps people alive when DPS are bad. As player skill and coordiantion increases, healing becomes only useful as utility, such as keeping the fang up or helping a flag runner. When your allies are being dropped with precision hits of 2k dps, your healing is no longer relevant to keeping players alive.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2011 11:22pm by Allegory
#19 Apr 23 2011 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
That's a mighty big river you're trying to cross there cleric. Warning: I heard there are croc's in it.



Edited, Apr 23rd 2011 11:22pm by Shojindo
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#20 Apr 24 2011 at 1:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
I'm not suggesting that it's easy to roflstomp people with Soul Drain. I'm saying that it's possible. I'm saying that Inquisitors are capable of running into a crowd of players and functionally one-shotting four of them with an ability on a 2s cast with a 10s CD. Neither rogues nor warriors have anything close to that kind of burst potential. Pyros have it easier, but it's mostly the potential that has people upset.

Ok, quite a bit of fallacy here.

1) One shotting? My cleric has 950 SP in T2 gear, and I was using a 44 inquisitor build (with points in sentinel for 20% bonus crit). Souldrain does 520 a hit, and assuming I get the bounce it will do 1040 to a person. With all my bonus crit it does 950 a crit, and so 1900 damage on fanaticism crits. The only person that move will one shot is me for trying to use it.


I linked a video. Go on ahead and play that video. Go to the 43 second mark in the video when he unloads the Soul Drain. Soul Drain fires out up to three "projectiles" and each player hit will bounce out damage to up to 4 players around them. That means you're not hitting just twice. No, no. You're hitting up to three times if you set it up right. (I will admit that I was mistaken before in saying that it hits four times. It can only hit up to 3 times). The one guy in the center of the screen ate three crits for 2244, 2401, and 2401.

It's not a fallacy, Allegory. I've had it happen to me. 3x1700 crits. When you consider that most people in rank 1/2 PvP gear have 4-5k HP, that's enough to one-shot them. If there are four players standing around a flag or something and you decide to try and run in alone and get off a Soul Drain, you deserve to die for being a twit. By the same token, if you come across a pitched battle around a flag or a fang/sourcestone carrier and can't get some juicy Soul Drain devastation going on, you're not making full use of your character.

You'll also note in that video that when he's dealing the big damage, he's got the red wings going from the red orba "Mega Damage" buff. Try it sometime. It's pretty neat, but only for casters. It doubles your SP. So your 540 base soul drain damage/bounce now all of a sudden starts looking closer to 800-900. Now force it all to crit with Fanaticism.

It's not about, "Well, you have to get a red orb and Fanaticism has to be off CD and you have to find a group of players that are already occupied so you can go in with a good chance of getting the cast off..."

It doesn't matter. The point is that warriors and rogues can never do that much damage to four players in 2 seconds. Ever. It's a mathematical impossibility. A warrior MIGHT be able to hit that kind of damage in 2 seconds on one target with exceptional gear, but not four targets. And a rogue? lol

Quote:
My normal Sanction heretic hits for 735, and crits for 1400. My normal BoD hits for 792 and crits for 1500. BoD has a 30% chance to proc off of Sanction heretic. So every 45 seconds I can force Sanction heretic to crit and if I'm lucky I can follow it up with a BoD proc. So every 45 seconds I can burst someone for about 1450, if I'm really lucky I have a proc and can do 2200. That is the extent of my burst damage.


I ate a 3400 damage Sanction Heretic crit not all that long ago. Red orbs, Allegory. Red orbs. SP scales to damage very well on a lot of spells. AP scales to damage poorly.
#21 Apr 24 2011 at 7:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Master Shojindo wrote:
Teacake remember your protadin healer build before they nerfed it in WoW?


Ah, let's all take a moment to hum "The Way We Were" and smile over that memory, shall we? :D

I was killable 1v1 though. I had infinite mana, tank level health, and very big heals (hold on, one more moment of humming...), but I was not immune to skill and I could be shut down. Your point is still taken, however - I was never a very good paladin, and skill will almost always win if there's a fairly big disparity. Could Mikelolol have been killed 1v1 when he was running that spec? Probably not, or only very rarely.
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