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Cleric DPS a joke?Follow

#1 Apr 24 2011 at 1:46 AM Rating: Good
9 posts
Hi all,

I've levelled my cleric as dps (druid/sham/sent) and on reaching 50 respecced into Druid/Shaman/Inq with a 24/31/11 build. About to do second T1, the tank thought I was a healer and when I said I wasn't, he initially thought I was kidding around. He then told me that I should change to heals because cleric dps is a joke because dps of around 200 was the norm.

I do have a heal spec but have not yet used it. At level 50 it was quite confusing even after reading about it and taking notes etc. So, I have started another cleric and will be levelling it as a healer in dungeons, specifically to learn how to heal properly from the ground up, so that I'm comfortable with what I'm doing and can do it well.

He told me that doing this was a waste of time, and that I should just use my heal spec then and there, to heal the T1 we were about to do. Just like that, never having healed before at all, not used to the different situational heals, the shields and blessings, what the buttons even look like etc., and this a T1 - and also me only having dps'd this particular dungeon once as I had levelled.

Now that's the background story, which I invite any comments on, but my main question and big concern is: how are other cleric dps finding the reception out there to dungeoning as dps? Is this person's perception correct that cleric dps is a joke, or are clerics just as viable for dps as any other dps class - *crossing fingers for the answer I want to hear*. I don't want to raid heal ideally. Surely I haven't levelled a healing class as a dps and am now stuck with a useless toon.

I also read the post and comment on mage vs. cleric dps, and for my part my experience is of out-dpsing mages in the few instances I ran as I levelled. I can't speak for end-game tho.

Would appreciate any comments anyone may have, thank you :)

(Last edit, I hope, lol)
Edited, Apr 24th 2011 3:59am by Azruel

Edited, Apr 24th 2011 4:19am by Azruel

Edited, Apr 24th 2011 4:21am by Azruel

Edited, Apr 24th 2011 5:06am by Azruel
#2 Apr 24 2011 at 3:32 AM Rating: Decent
17 posts
my cleric is a healer first, but i quest as a inq/cab/sent, so i have never dps'd T1's as yet, but i am noticing that the mobs i nuke while doing dailies are falling much faster as i improve my healing gear. just the other day i teamed up w a few others to take down an elite mob for a quest in stillmoor, and when we where done, one could not help but notice my dps and said it was great. that being said, there will always be players that think they know how to play your class better than you and are rude about it. but since you're running as dps, make sure they know that when entering a group for a instance. if you dont want to heal then stay away from it, cause it can be fun, but it can also be a chore cause IMO the runs you do will always be different depending on the tank's gear, style, dps's ability to kill stuff, and always running after the impatient tank. it has been no picnic for me, and i have actually thought about rerolling defiant as a tank because of the headache i seem to get from groups who think that i can solo heal an expert. and i did, but it was not fun for me... at all. i may try out my caster cleric on a instance, but clerics will always be thought of as heals first, dps second. oh, and i know i suck at healing, but i have completed every instance i have solo-healed. idk, might be my spec:
<a href="http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00ejG.xE0xoLoo.v0Exbstc">Warden (27) / Sentinel (39) / Purifier (0)</a>

i still think an OH makes the runs so much smoother.so, sorry for the rant, but do what you want to do w your class, and make sure the group knows you are dps, and not the heals, so you dont have to go through being the assumed heals.

Edited, Apr 24th 2011 5:35am by sanzulockout

Edited, Apr 24th 2011 7:49am by sanzulockout
#3 Apr 24 2011 at 4:08 AM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
What it comes down to is to be true DPS at 50 you have to go Inq/Sent/Ward or Dru/Sham/Inq. Now that being said I have played a very good off-heal/support DPS Justicar/Shaman and haven't had complaints because AOE is very strong DPS, single target is horrible. I have also gone in twice as my caster cleric and the DPS is probably 2-3 times what a Melee support Cleric can dish out and is on par with all but Warriors. So the answer is yes and no, Melee Clerics DPS is good, Caster Cleric DPS is good, Melee support DPS is low but the off-healing can be on par with some Bards (assuming spamming doctrines and with Mandate on the tank).

Edited, May 8th 2011 5:14pm by delindsay90210
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#4 Apr 24 2011 at 12:19 PM Rating: Decent
9 posts
Thanks Sanz for your reply.

I'll say at the outset that I know EXACTLY what you mean about healing in instances as I've healed plenty in WoW on my Shaman. I'm usually running after an impatient tank, looting during a fight cos I don't have time to loot afterwards trying to keep up with the tank, and healing is very dependent on the tank and his gear/methods as to how much healing is required for the dps. These are the reasons I don't want to heal.

I read up about the best dps Cleric spec and am running Druid (for the Satyr who is one of, if not the best pet in the game imo) / Shaman up to Lust for Blood and 11 points in Inq. The aoe dps from this is very nice and single target isn't bad either. I also have some ranged casting I can do if required as some of the fights are not very melee friendly at all. Rift is also VERY macro friendly, and with the new spec with Inq, I'm pulling 3/4 mobs and going through them very quickly, even without the couple of heals I had from my previous spec that I levelled with, cos there's a talent in there that causes an ability to heal me up anyway, sorry can't remember what it is right now. (My previous levelling spec starting out was Druid/Sham and 0 in Sentinel to help with self heals - or quick support healing in pvp on the fang holder eg.)

For heals btw Pur/Sent/ with 0 in warden is from what I've read a single target (or raid MT heals spec) with instance or overall raid healing being more Waren/Sentinel based for more aoe heals.

I think you're right - as long as I say up front that I'm Cleric DPS, I can see how things go and I'm parsing also, just hadn't had a real chance to try it out after I respecced at 50. First instance failed half way through and this one I'm referring to was my second, which never got off the ground because I left the group, obviously not wanted by that particular tank.

With raiding being about max dps, I'm wondering as more and more people get to level 50 and begin raiding whether cleric dps will become redundant in favor of more output from other dps classes. Having said all of this, yeh I'll see how I go, but I'm also concentrating on levelling my mage now also, as I'm happier dpsing than healing for reasons we both agree on lol.

Time will tell I guess, and more feedback from others in the meantime.

Thank you :)
#5 Apr 24 2011 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
9 posts
Thanks Delindsay,

I'm going to try the Inq/Cab/Sent spec as I'm hearing from you and others that its great aoe dps. Also its ranged whereas mine is melee. Having the two specs to use on a situational basis sounds like a good plan. Can you give any advice on how best to use it please? I don't want to start again from the ground up with dps as well as heals, lol. I read someone saying they did this with Cabalist as its difficult to understand.

Actually I just had a chat with a cleric who says he has personally hit 2k dps using 51 in Cabalist with its sick aoe dps. He also said that the tank I was referring to who said Cleric dps is a joke is probably a moron, lol.

In the meantime, mage ftw overall I think to feel comfortable being mainly dps (with offspec using chloro).

Thanks for your response :)

Edited, Apr 24th 2011 5:39pm by Azruel

Edited, Apr 24th 2011 5:55pm by Azruel
#6 Apr 24 2011 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
Inq/Cab are both ranged DPS, think Warlock/S-Priest in WoW, and for Sent you use the +5% SP, +20% crit ceiling and I use 1pt for +5% crit on target. with my talents and if there's a Bard in group I run about 43% crit wearing mostly healer gear (I just added this Role 3 days ago). My single target crits are over 1200 and AOE crits about 700/ea. I have seen total AOE damage with Obliterate (as long as the full duration of Decay is on the target, and with more than 4 mobs) of over 10k damage. I have tested this damage against a Melee Cleric Shaman/Druid and I out dps'd them single target by a decent amount, and FAR out dps them in AOE.

My spec cannot off-heal as well as Justicar/Shaman/Sent but the dps of that setup is terrible. Now, will Clerics of any type be allowed to DPS in Raids where the boss is a dps race, yes they will, and they are even now.

Edited, May 8th 2011 5:15pm by delindsay90210
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#7 Apr 24 2011 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
9 posts
Awesome, makes perfect sense to me now. I love locks and spriests and know locks inside and out, lol. Would you please link your spec? I've been searching for one but haven't found one as yet.

Yep, cleric dps in a raid boss dps race I guess gets to the core of my original question. Time will tell :)

Thank you :)
#8 Apr 24 2011 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
What I did was search here on Zam and looked up the highest rated spec 41/15/10 and then tweaked it to match my play style and the groups I run with. I then came up with my build 39/17/10 (I'm sure it's not the perfect max DPS out there but it's great dps anyhow). Let me explain why I chose to change the highest rated and most popular build:

Fanatic's Faith (Inq): Added back all 5/5 as the talent DOES stack with Walk in the Light in Sent. Also Removed Luminous Gaze in Sent as it is too cumbersome to keep up every 13.5 sec, I may add it back later.

Circle of Oblivion (Inq): I chose to take this talent to add an additional AOE, however it is mana intensive. The lowest damage I have seen it do is ~300 per mob per tick, that's a good chunk of damage if you have the full 7 mobs in range.

Affinity for Death (Cab): I added 2/5 in this talent for a very simple reason, it brings the CD of Obliterate down almost perfectly in line with Fanaticism which I have macro'd together.

Sigil of Binding (Cab): The effect of the Sigil itself is useless in PvE, it's the fact that you don't have to wait 2m to use Obliterate or Tyranny as Sigil of Binding can be recast at any time and with no GCD. This is the second reason I went 17 into Cab instead of the generic 15.

As you can see I didn't change much from the highest rated spec and I feel my changes were worth it over all for the build that I'm going for (crit, crit, crit). Even in T1 gear, once I get the right stat itemization I should be sitting comfortably (while attacking mobs) at ~45% Crit, which is crazy high.

Edited, May 8th 2011 5:16pm by delindsay90210
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#9 Apr 24 2011 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
9 posts
Very nice, thank you for going to the trouble of explaining your changes, will have a look in greater detail as I create the spec. Would be very interested to know if Fanatic's Faith does in fact stack with Walk in the Light. Wow 55% crit, awesome, lol!

Thanks for help, much appreciated :)
#10 Apr 24 2011 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
Quote:
Would be very interested to know if Fanatic's Faith does in fact stack with Walk in the Light.


Actually I will test it out tonight after work because I'm seeing conflicting answers on various forums. I will post the results after testing it. If they do then holy crit Batman.
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#11 Apr 25 2011 at 3:53 AM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
Alright after testing it I can now verify that the +20% crit (5/5) talents in Inq and Sent DO STACK. I changed my spec to reflect the change in my above post. Also I tweaked it a bit more after finding out 2 things:

Clinging Spirit (Inq): Removed this 2/2 talent because it is either broken or does not work as the tool tip reads. It is supposed to place a debuff of sorts on the target(s) that increases magical damage taken by 7%. It does not however do as prescribed. I tested this on the Boss level target dummy and in a CC Rep run, none of the targets hit by Soul Drain took increased damage by any spell nor did I see any timer debuff (10sec) on any mob. The other issue is when as a caster are you likely to be within 7m of a boss. Usually you are at max range for safety. I placed those 2 points back into Castigation to still speed up the cast time of my main filler attack, Bolt of Judgment. I could only get 3/5 but that's better than 0/5.

Luminous Gaze (Sent): I went ahead and removed this talent, for now at least, as it is probably a DPS loss in only a 5man party. In a Raid environment I would likely place it back and have to deal with an ability I HAVE to cast every 13.5sec. I found it difficult to keep it on even the boss targets without ever letting it drop off. That 1 point went into Castigation.

Here are the results of the test on both Bolt of Depravity (Inq nuke) and Healing Breath.

Only 1 Soul's +20% crit ceiling increase:

-Bolt of Depravity max crit = 1148
-Healing Breath max crit = 1572

Both Soul's +20% crit ceiling increase:

-Bolt of Depravity max crit = 1282 (1371 with Spiritual Deficiency active) and I saw nearly 1800 in CC as we had a Bard and a Mage.
-Healing Breath max crit = 1757

As an interesting side note (this was all tested with self buffs only, no food/pots/scrolls), I retried this test with the +10 Spell Power food buff and increased Bolt of Depravity by 17 and Healing Breath by 28. So it would seem that Spell Power does scale well with abilities and even though this is primarily a crit build SP should not be overlooked.

For this build your Stat priority would be : (UPDATED 08May)

1) Focus (until cap for what you're doing)
2) Crit [usually not on the same gear with SP] **To ~620 Crit**
3) Spell Power [usually not on the same gear with Crit] ***Over ~620 Crit***
4) Int [Int adds Crit but hardly any SP]
5) Wis [Wis adds SP but zero Crit]

Edited, May 8th 2011 5:19pm by delindsay90210
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#12 Apr 25 2011 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
9 posts
Awesome about the confirmation of crit talents in Inq and Sent stacking, excellent to know.

Interesting about Clinging Spirit - I'm thinking as you have tested it well and it obviously isn't working now, it IS intended for it to work and it possibly (?) could be integrated into a small update very soon, if not fixed in early May, so my original thought was to go ahead and spec into it anyway. Then I read that you put the 2 points into Castigation to speed up the cast time of Bolt of Judgment. Being the main filler, I'm thinking in the long run would you be better off with that as opposed to having the 7% increase in magical damage anyway. If I already had my main filler sped up like that I'd be hesitant to take it away. So I'm going to put my two points into Castigation and think very hard about taking them away at all - or am I underestimating what a 7% increase in magical damage. In any case, taking Castigation for now is definitely the way to go.

Yep in a dungeon environment having an ability you have to cast every 13.5 sec seems to me to be redundant in most cases and I agree with you that it would have more utility in a Raid environment. Yep and.. castigation wins again lol.

Great calls imo and thank you so much for taking the time to respond, especially with added info on stat priority. My learning curve is HUGE atm and I'm thankful for all the information provided that I can soak up, lol.

:)
#13 Apr 26 2011 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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this general topic always seems to reinvent itself. comes down to:
play style vs perceived value vs need vs future changes

i did Ret pally as main for 5 yrs(back when UBRS was a raid). the early years of WoW was a mishmosh of game design, talents, and players. this was when you could roll a Circus Clown and still find a spot in a raid. then came design focus, class balancing, and parsing. you finally had to choose something legit and prove your worth. i stuck with Ret and learned what i needed to do to stay competitive and rode the wave of nerf/OP. it got frustrating at times. my production would vary based on the nerf cycle, i could go from top dps to somewhere in the middle in a weeks time. when raids got more prejudice thats when i resorted to theorycrafting for a raid spot. at one point Ret offered +3% dmg to all raid members and +5 crit(IIRC). that was potentially and extra 5-6% more dmg for the entire raid on top of my own dps and buffs. a fail raid leader wouldn't see this benefit and only look at the dps report. later on, all classes got homogenized and this structure didn't apply anymore. dps meters became law again. /quit WoW

Rift brings some of these qualities. you are gonna have some flexibility on spec but you also need to consider your worth. am i bringing my max potential or am i only focusing on my own numbers? does 2k dps from AOE mater when i'm on a single target? am i padding my dps #s by "killing rats"? am i taking alot of healing that could be used for the tank? am i making the raid easier or even successful?

play style is important but the first word is play. if you want to be a wide receiver on the Bengals, you better bring something different, cuz you're fighting for a spot with TO and Ochocinco. otherwise, you are better off rolling a Safety if you want to come off the bench. if your raid keeps failing cuz they need a healer, then guess what: you gotta go heals. while you're at it, roll a tank as well. this will do 2 things: make you handy for a backup and let you learn the mechanics. when you roll other specs you get a certain respect for that roll. then you learn to stay out of the fire and learn when a tank does and doesn't need a big heal.

playing what you want vs playing what you need makes for an interesting debate
#14 Apr 26 2011 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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40 posts
In regards to leveling a new cleric to learn to heal, I think it is a waste of time. I leveled as a healer and when I got to 50, I had to trash my spec/playstyle and relearn to heal in order to keep up with experts. Id find a popular spec and break it in in Black Garden or even CC/AP and get a little more comfortable. I think itl take less time to get accustomed to than leveling all over again
____________________________
Jimothy
Bismark
BLM 61, WHM 50
#15 Apr 26 2011 at 7:45 PM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
I can now also confirm Caster Cleric's DPS is viable (or will be) for at least Experts. I did eKB last night with the other 2 DPS being a Mage and a Melee Cleric (Druid, had Satyr). Both the Mage/Cleric had far better gear than myself. The only reason I know this is someone if party had the combat parser. I beat every single person id Damage done and DPS in all bu one boss fight. The best part was the Boss that puts the light green poison on the ground (that you can barely see) I did more than twice what the next person did in damage. My highest was 949 DPS (mostly in 48 Blues) and my lowest was 389 (last boss, spikes kept interrupting casting, and LOS around pillar). Even on that fight I was still #2 in DPS, the Druid was last with something like 306 DPS.

EDIT: Forgot to mention I was brought into eKB as the off-healer/support. And Bolt of Depravity was always the ability on the parser (even though I only ever use it when it's insta-cast). On a side note, for any wondering we had a Chloro healing that run (with me off-healing) and he was a little over half epics.

Edited, Apr 26th 2011 10:00pm by delindsay90210
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#16 Apr 28 2011 at 7:28 AM Rating: Decent
3 posts
Hey everyone. I have read all the posts and find each interesting. I am a recent expert running cleric. I do heal (I have two different specs), and I do DPS. My DPS role is 51 cab and then inq. I am still working on my gear of course using the plaques because we all know the cleric chain gear drop is few and far between. What I would like is to see your Inq. build...can you link that. Could you also post your rotation per single boss, then per (3 or more) mob. I started out as Inq but was quickly told to change to Cab when I joined a all elitist milataristic guild (need I say I am no longer in that guild). My point is that I thought the Inq role was doing great, but I didn't have enough time to test it. While the Cab does over 900DPS, and I'm still in some 48blue gear, my single boss target DPS is poor (@200-300DPS).
#17 Apr 29 2011 at 9:40 PM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
Quote:
While the Cab does over 900DPS, and I'm still in some 48blue gear, my single boss target DPS is poor (@200-300DPS).


Yeah something's wrong if that's all you hit single target. Now, in a pure movement fight I probably hit 3-350 DPS but stand still even only self buffed I'm no less than 7-800 DPS.

Quote:
My DPS role is 51 cab and then inq


That might be your single target DPS problem. I have no doubt you rape AOE fights with that build but IMHO Inq is a better single target build (not 51 pt though). My current build that seems to work well for T1 Experts 39/17/10 **Updated**.

Quote:
While the Cab does over 900DPS


If that is what you are pushing AOE (4+ mobs) then that too is low. In the right group (Bard + Archon) I can easily surpass 2K DPS AOE. I will try to address both single target and AOE for you below. Mind you I'm at work so I'm doing this from memory.

Single Target (Boss usually): "Priority Rotation"

Here is the priority order of your abilities (based on highest damage and off CD)

**Setup prior to DPS'ing: Spiritual Deficiency and Luminous Gaze Keep SD up on the target as often as possible.

1) Obliterate (every 48sec and I macro it with Fanaticism, and only used after full 3sec channeled Decay)
2) Bolt of Depravity (only to be used when Life and Death Concord procs, never casted)
3) Sanction Heretic
4) Vex (every time I try and link this ability it links to something different, sorry)
5) Bolt of Judgment (filler)

There isn't really a Rotation of sorts because Bolt of Depravity should be cast immediately after it procs as an instant cast which will cause you to skip certain abilities at times.


AOE (3 mobs and if you can get close enough to them):

Soul Drain, Bound Fate, Decay (full 3 sec) + Obliterate...Repeat as needed (swap Tyranny for Obliterate on CD).


AOE (4+ mobs and if you can get close enough to them):

Soul Drain, Circle of Oblivion...Repeat until dead. This approach is boring as sh*t but very effective.

In AOE situations I rarely bother with Spiritual Deficiency and Luminous Gaze. If you cannot get close enough to use Soul Drain then just bypass that step/ability. I wish Trion would change the ability to hit mobs within 7 meters of the TARGET not the Cleric. Don't use any AOE with only 2 mobs, just use single target abilities and Obliterate/tyranny as they will hit both mobs. Also spamming AOE abilities is horribly mana inefficient so bring 2 stack of water per 5man as you will likely go through 25+ per run especially if you have a fast moving group. Hope all that helps and keep in mind my DPS numbers were with me in mostly 48 Blues as well.

EDIT 08May: Some of this post is out of date, see below for corrected information.

Edited, May 8th 2011 5:22pm by delindsay90210
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#18 Apr 30 2011 at 11:18 PM Rating: Good
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40 posts
Is Luminous Gaze worth keeping up? It seems cumbersome every 15 seconds to reapply it, wouldn't that point as well as one other Sentinel point be worth investing in Clinging Spirit (7% magic damage taken increase after soul drain)? This would also bump spell power bonus for Vex and SH by 8%.
____________________________
Jimothy
Bismark
BLM 61, WHM 50
#19 May 01 2011 at 12:29 AM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
Quote:
Is Luminous Gaze worth keeping up? It seems cumbersome every 15 seconds to reapply it, wouldn't that point as well as one other Sentinel point be worth investing in Clinging Spirit (7% magic damage taken increase after soul drain)? This would also bump spell power bonus for Vex and SH by 8%.


Yes and no, I found out today that if you have an Assn in group their poison overwrites Luminous Gaze. I already took that 1 point out of Sentinel and dropped it back into Castigation like I had it before.

If you read the whole thread I stated previously that Clinging Spirit doesn't seem to work as intended, or is bugged. Secondly (and this is to ALL on various forums who claim they spam Soul Drain on Boss fights) as a range DPS you should NEVER be close enough to the boss to use Soul Drain, save a very few cases where that is the mechanic of the fight. Also Soul Drain on 1 target is a DPS loss because of it's 2 sec cast time.

Also by reading the whole thread you will see I posted why I went 17 into Cab instead of 15, Obliterate after the full 3sec Decay is by far your highest DPS ability, second is Bolt of Depravity (which will show as #1 on the dps log since Obliterate is 48sec CD). You cannot use Obliterate on 48sec CD if you only go 15 into Cab because of Cigil of Power's 2m CD. Vex is the lowest DPS ability we have so adding +8% won't help a ton and you would lose 4% crit ceiling doing it the way you suggest or your 48sec Obliterate (and Tyranny as often as you want for that matter) doing it the "standard" build of 15 Cab. I even tried when I took out Luminous Gaze in Sent to put it into Curse of Solitude (Cab) to see if that would benefit dps, and I must say that ability is wretched on single target. It's dps is far worse than Vex even, I was seeing ticks for as little as 89, oh boy. I will edit my above post to reflect the 1pt change in the spec.

Now with that said my spec is in ref to the OP asking about Cleric DPS in end game. My build is mainly for Experts and you can squeeze more DPS out of the build with a few changes for a Raid DPS build. If you still need some AOE utility but know your healers are strong it would be something like 39/17/10. You need good aoe healers for this build as Vex no longer helps you and you don't gain access to Air/Earth/Fire/Water resistance. You also lose 8% reduced threat, a 2m cd mana restoration ability in Aggressive Renewal (ouch on long fights), and an AOE in Circle of Oblivion. What you gain is better single target DPS passively. The other option is OFC 51 Inq which is the current "raid build" for caster Clerics.



Edited, May 1st 2011 2:50am by delindsay90210
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#20 May 01 2011 at 6:40 AM Rating: Good
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40 posts
Yeah I understand the reason for 17 Cabalist which I think is interesting and am planning on trying it myself. Its funny though I had read the whole thread a few days ago and I thought I remembered someone on riftjunkies saying that luminous gaze was cumbersome but apparently that was you earlier in the thread.
____________________________
Jimothy
Bismark
BLM 61, WHM 50
#21 May 01 2011 at 10:58 AM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
Quote:
Its funny though I had read the whole thread a few days ago and I thought I remembered someone on riftjunkies saying that luminous gaze was cumbersome but apparently that was you earlier in the thread.


Yes it is cumbersome but I wanted to give it another shot since I am basically a crit build, that is until I found out Rogue poison overwrites it so it is basically useless in a group. Another note, I'm pretty sure some class has a mechanic that is overwriting Spiritual Deficiency as well, but I haven't nailed that down yet as I have been in groups with different make ups so it's hard to say which class (soul even) is doing it, or if the mob itself is removing it.
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#22 May 02 2011 at 8:52 PM Rating: Decent
13 posts
Azruel wrote:
Hi all,

I've levelled my cleric as dps (druid/sham/sent) and on reaching 50 respecced into Druid/Shaman/Inq with a 24/31/11 build. About to do second T1, the tank thought I was a healer and when I said I wasn't, he initially thought I was kidding around. He then told me that I should change to heals because cleric dps is a joke because dps of around 200 was the norm.


Clearly that tank is an idiot. Delindsay knows what he(she)'s talking about, though we do have different play styles and builds, I can tell you he(she)'s thought his/her builds through. That being said my personal approach is to drop bolt of judgement from my rotation in favor of my channeled spells and dots combined. I haven't parsed my dps recently but at 40 i was pulling between 300-500 dps depending on cd's with more or less this build on single targets.


AoE? Forget about it. Tyranny and fanaticism +3 or more mobs = 1800+ damage per mob. Add a nice obliterate at the end of that coupled with 3x tyranny or circle of oblivion and you're probably sitting on top of aoe dps end of story.

Want to level? Don't bother with quests, pull a bunch of mobs and aoe grind it out.. 5-6 mobs my level is usually what i found i could handle and that was 2k-3k (non rested)xp per pull at lvl 40+. Each pull didn't last a full minute so it was incredibly faster than questing.
#23 May 02 2011 at 10:08 PM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
Does anyone know the name of the Guild and what EU shard they are on that downed RoS the first day? I read about it somewhere and can't find it now. I ask because if I can find out who they are I'm going to see if they have a website so I can read up on what THEY do for cleric DPS in Raid and see how close any of us are to correct, or if we ARE just barking up the wrong tree. But I don't think we're all completely wrong because one of the best DPS on my shard (Todrin > US) is Inq/Cab/Sent, I'll try and get his/her name/guild and tt him about what he/she does. Since we don't have the benefit of an Elitist Jerks type site to help us all out, talking in a thread like this about each of our own experiences will grow all of our knowledge on the subject.

In any case there is no website other than this very thread where I have found GOOD info about Cleric DPS thearycrafting. Riftjunkies has a thread but a bunch of the info is out of date or just plain incorrect.

I'm also going to see if gearing exactly like a healer would benefit DPS. What I mean by that is instead of Int over Wis and Crit over SP on gear for a huge crit % on target, would it in fact be better to have much larger base damage with Wis over Int and SP over Crit on gear.

EDIT: The Guild that downed RoS the first day is < Addiction > on Lotham (US) so I will work on looking them up and see if they theorycraft Cleric DPS.


Edited, May 3rd 2011 11:02pm by delindsay90210
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#24 May 03 2011 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
3 posts
Thanks for the responses. I seem to have the same a similar spec. I am going to try your build and see what happens. I think my problem too is that I do get bored and start clicking other spells. I do seem to pull aggro, so I find myself holding back on spamming spells or maybe skip a spell. I think this is great advice, something that can be tried without looking like an idiot. I'll keep checking back and once I can check my DPS, I'll let you know.
#25 May 03 2011 at 10:11 PM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
I just spent half of the day reading literally every forum thread I could find regarding any type of Cleric DPS. What I have to show for it is I think 90% of Rift players are complete idiots in regards to what they "think" certain roles/soul builds can do or should not do (I seriously read in more than 1 thread that people think Clerics can't tank...ROFL). Here are some of the few 'facts' (loosely worded there) that I could find about our DPS ability in end game.

-We are not at the moment top DPS in either MDPS or RDPS (I'm talking RoS and GSB environments here), Warriors are #1. We ARE however competitive DPS in only being lower than the TOP by 2-400 DPS, but in line with Rogue/Mage DPS. This is strictly single target, nobody cares in raid if you do 10k DPS on a trash pull but only 800 on a Boss.

-Getting people to realize we're are not a completely wasted spot in a party/raid, unless we're healing, is up to you. YOU will have to learn how to spec your DPS Cleric and what the rotation is, correct Runes, correct Pots, etc. Read and try to understand what the ability does and how it works. Practice on the Boss level dummies and preferably in some Guild ran Experts. Talk to others on your shard that ARE impressive Cleric DPS (Melee or Ranged) and learn from them.

-Most players have no clue what true DPS is and therefore have no reason saying you cannot DPS for them, but that sure doesn't stop them from trying to berate you for attempting to DPS as Cleric.

-Forget telling anyone you're good "support" DPS as every other calling has an ability that overwrites all of ours with certain souls (I know I'm not happy about it either). For example the +5% crit of Luminous Gaze gets overwritten by Rogues. All of our resistances get overwritten by other callings. These are just 2 examples and yes those specific souls of the respective callings would have to be present, which likely they would in a raid environment.

-Patch 1.2 will see a slight buff to Inq DPS with a change to how Life and Death Concord works. Remember Bolt of Depravity is always the ability on the parser (top damage) and any help to get it to proc instant cast more often is welcome. We're also getting a little more mana efficient in this patch so "maybe" we can drop Aggressive Renewal and any/all points into Unholy Tutelage in favor of points that actually increase damage output...one can hope.

-Players seem to think that Clerics have a glass ceiling for DPS of 650-800. I have proven this wrong in lowish level gear, and I read several posts where people have seen Clerics hit over 1K in Raid so prove them wrong. When the person linked the combat parser in eKB and I was #1 wearing 48 Blues (the Mage and MDPS Cleric were almost full T1) nobody had anything bad to say to me after that, and I have had no issue getting a group as RDPS in any T1 Expert since that day. I ahve also gotten compliments on my DPS and other Clerics asking what I'm doing different from them.


All in all lets keep this up, bring me your questions and I will try to answer them. I have no problem respec'ing to try new stuff out and give feedback as to why I liked or didn't like it. In WoW I was a top 10% DPS Hunter and top 5% Boomkin (I like ranged) as well as at the end of WotLK the best on Realm raiding Tree, so I'm definitely into min/maxing I'm just not very good with all the math that goes into it.
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#26 May 04 2011 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
40 posts
I tried out the build you use, in both expert AP and on the dummy and I think that obliterate is a bad choice for single target rotation. This may change when there is a CD added to life and death concord, but after spending several hours at the boss dummy I noticed about ~50 dps increase just from standard vex/SH/boj/bod spam. Also, I forgot to verify this but it seems that Fanatacism only forces crit on Obliterate's damage itself, not the lurking decays. Using it with SH or BoD seemed to produce better results.

I'm not sure why you use the 16pt Sigil, unless you use it instead of a decay I don't think it adds any damage to Cabalist spells, only the added effects.

I also think you understimate the bonus damage that more points add to SH/Vex. With a 51 spec most of the time SH is listed as the top damage ability rather than BoD. Perhaps its the difference in our crit% but my gear is a mix of T1/T2 and I could barely break 550 on elite trash using your spec/rotation. For reference, my SP is 854, and (from memory) my crit % is ~19%, ill check when I get home later to be sure.
____________________________
Jimothy
Bismark
BLM 61, WHM 50
#27 May 04 2011 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
Quote:
I tried out the build you use, in both expert AP and on the dummy and I think that obliterate is a bad choice for single target rotation. This may change when there is a CD added to life and death concord, but after spending several hours at the boss dummy I noticed about ~50 dps increase just from standard vex/SH/boj/bod spam. Also, I forgot to verify this but it seems that Fanatacism only forces crit on Obliterate's damage itself, not the lurking decays. Using it with SH or BoD seemed to produce better results.

I'm not sure why you use the 16pt Sigil, unless you use it instead of a decay I don't think it adds any damage to Cabalist spells, only the added effects.

I also think you understimate the bonus damage that more points add to SH/Vex. With a 51 spec most of the time SH is listed as the top damage ability rather than BoD. Perhaps its the difference in our crit% but my gear is a mix of T1/T2 and I could barely break 550 on elite trash using your spec/rotation. For reference, my SP is 854, and (from memory) my crit % is ~19%, ill check when I get home later to be sure.


Yes Fanaticism only causes the initial damage of Obliterate to crit and I too will test to see whether macro'ing that to SH/BoD helps any over Obliterate. And the only reason I go past 15 into Cab IS for the ability to use Obliterate every 48s (it requires an active Sigil), otherwise you're right it would be wasted points spent. If you are correct, I will update my post to reflect that change.

If you do have a mix of T1/T2 and are not a crit build like myself then ~854 sp seems low. Self buffed (no scrolls or pots, just the +10 sp food) I have 844 sp (all 5 Lesser Essences are Critical Burn + 1 Metamorphic Stonesource) and a bunch of my gear has crit, not sp on it. I am as of today still in 4 blues (all level 50 now), rest are T1 = and the quest Helm from the Undeath raid. I also have crit on my 2H (that may be why I have so much sp, with a 2H not 1H + Totem).

As for underestimating how much bonus to Vex/SH the 51 Inq gives, I don't. I stated that the current accepted raid build IS 51 Inq and I may give it a try just to see what it can do vs my build which is only slightly changed from the most popular overall caster Cleric DPS build here on Zam.

Question for you, you can see what my crits are like in my above posts, what value are you seeing in party in T2's for say BoD or SH? With my gear now (I did eKB and eFLH today, no Bard, Assn or Archon) I was crit'ing for 1500+ BoD and about 1200 SH, that's with just under 40% crit on target without the Bard or Assn. Also combined total damage including the 3sec channel and the Obliterate with Fanaticism, I am seeing on single target bosses in that ~3.2 sec (lag) roughly 2600 minimum (round down to 850 DPS with ONLY counting the initial Obliterate crit, no other crits, 48s CD). That would be verses by best BoD crits at ~1800 (if casted that would be 600 DPS, min 6sec CD for insta proc) and my best SH crits at ~1400 (10s CD). This is where I come up with the "math" for what ability I use. Is Obliterate the highest damage single target ability, yes if used after the full decay and paired with Fanaticism. Is Obliterate the best for DPS throughput, I don't know that's why this thread exists and I'm happy to learn otherwise.
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#28 May 05 2011 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
40 posts
Ill have to check and see if my log is still up when I get home from work, I did Realm of the Fae last night. One thing I do remember is I tried Fanatacism with Soul Drain on big groups and I recall crits for 1200 even. one thing I thought of that may be the discrepancy between our dps is what values you look at on the parser. I noticed at the end that my dps under session stats was 880. I'm not an expert on how the parser works but I assume that that means dps for the entire instance, which gets skewed by massive aoe damage. When I check individual bosses under encounters I usually am around 500 depending on how much movement is involved.

Ill post some of my gear to help shed some light, the pieces I know are from memory but I looked up stats:

Crown of the Former King - 22Wis 23Int 21crit
Runebinder - 42Wis 23int 438 SP (30 crit rune also)
Mantle of the Unjust - 19wis 12int 19crit
Boots of Sacrifice - 16wis 11int 16crit
Robes of the flowing dark, don't have stats but its base + blue int/crit augment.

Ill try and remember to update with the rest, I could be gearing for this dps thing all wrong. I'm usually the healer!
____________________________
Jimothy
Bismark
BLM 61, WHM 50
#29 May 06 2011 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
3 posts
So do we agree then, this would be the "best" spec for Cleric caster DPS as per delindsay90210?

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00doj.Axkixx0qz.VzVmb.V0x

#30 May 06 2011 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
Quote:
So do we agree then, this would be the "best" spec for Cleric caster DPS as per delindsay90210?


Not so fast, that build IS great DPS for Experts but even I agree it wouldn't compete with the standard Raid builds which are 51pt Inq (Ranged) and Druid/Shaman (Melee). As it sits right now, from everything I've read Druid/Shaman beats Inq by about 200 DPS in a raid environment. But hold on, in patch 1.2 Inq is getting (hopefully) a decent buff to DPS with a change in how Life and Death Concord works, and becoming slightly more mana efficient. My guess is Trion is attempting to bring both Melee/Range DPS for Cleric in line with each other. I still doubt we will be capable of what Warriors are currently, but as long as we're not the worst DPS in Raid I'm happy.

Edited, May 6th 2011 2:42pm by delindsay90210
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#31 May 06 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Decent
3 posts
Could you toss up that shaman druid spec you're referring too?

Also, I suspect the reason that the Inquisitor spec is superior in experts is simply due to the sever amount of AOE trash pulls during the runs? I'm not entirely sure why a spec would be superior in experts and not in raiding?

Sorry for the redundancy of my questions.

I'm sure this has all been asked a thousand times before but unfortunately it's pretty rare that I've got time to surf forums and separate the wheat from the chaff.

thank you,
#32 May 06 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
Quote:
I'm not entirely sure why a spec would be superior in experts and not in raiding?


In Raid nobody cares what your DPS is on trash, it only matters on Boss fights, as those are the fights that win or lose the night. In an Expert run, the faster you kill trash the faster you finish as trash is the majority of the time in a run. They still only really care about your Boss DPS but having a 5man run cut in half time wise due to extreme DPS on trash is worth losing some single target DPS to most people. As for the Druid/Shaman Raid build I'll have to look that up again, I can't remember where I found it as there isn't much available in the way of Theorycrafting for Rift yet.
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#33 May 07 2011 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
Found what I believe is a pretty good thread about Cleric DPS (mostly from Ranged perspective) here. I warn you there are some idiots replying to that and some I truly believe know what they're talking about. What I took from it is that until patch 1.2 Melee does indeed outperform Ranged by ~200 DPS in a Raid environment. The two builds are:

Ranged: 51 (Inq) 10 (Sent) 5 (Ward) [GSB/RoS = ~900 DPS]

Melee: 31 (Dru) 24 (Sham) 11 (Inq) [GSB/RoS = ~1K DPS] can't find the exact build

Patch 1.2 should help Inq DPS at least a little, how much will be determined within a few weeks after it launches. And BTW, these DPS numbers are well in line with the top DPS in Raid as of current, not the worst like some think that Clerics are horrible DPS. Also these numbers are players in pretty much full T2 but little to no Raid gear. And by top I don't mean #1 I mean better than 50% of the DPS there, versus worst as in barely beating (if beating) the tanks in DPS.

Stat Priority updated: Focus (to cap) > Crit (to roughly 620) > SP (over 620 Crit) > Int > Wis (Int and Wis swap if over 620 Crit).

Rotation updated: Fanaticism+SH, Vex, BoJ (until BoD procs), repeat.

Quote:
Now that's the background story, which I invite any comments on, but my main question and big concern is: how are other cleric dps finding the reception out there to dungeoning as dps? Is this person's perception correct that cleric dps is a joke, or are clerics just as viable for dps as any other dps class


Now I think it's fair to finally confirm to the OP that YES Clerics can DPS end game but skill will always triumph over gear/class.

Also I edited several of my above posts to reflect the things we have all learned over the past couple weeks in this thread.

Edited, May 8th 2011 5:39pm by delindsay90210
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
#34 May 10 2011 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
9 posts
thank you delindsay for your obviously knowledgeable and well researched answers, and thanks for input from everyone. Have always been melee dps, but am going to try out the ranged spec.

Some great information there, this being THE thread I'm keeping in my favorites to refer to for info for things cleric. I'm so glad I asked the original question, felt dumb doing so, but the responses and info have been fantastic. Thank you :)
#35 May 10 2011 at 9:38 PM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
Alright Patch 1.2 is live and a few have tested (I mean a FEW) the new LoDC/BoD mechanic. As it stand now (further testing will obv ensue) damage increased ~100 DPS. That still puts us a tad behind Melee but the gap did get smaller at least. I'm personally just a fan of Ranged, and utterly hate Melee DPS'ing. And if we are to expect ~100 DPS increase that puts competent RDPS Clerics at or just above the 1K DPS threshold, which is certainly good for Raid.

On a side note, both Puri and Sent got a decent buff to their souls, so that familiar "Your a Cleric, go heals" comment might get used even more now lol.
____________________________
My Roles:

DPS: (Inq) 51 (Sent) 10 (Ward) 5
Raid Healer: (Puri) 32 (Sent) 34 (Ward) 0
MT Healer: (Puri) 51 (Sent) 15 (Ward) 0
Tank: (Just) 47 (Sham) 7 (Inq) 12
Inquisicar: (Inq) 51 (Justi) 14 (Sent) 1
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