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Diminishing Returns and PvP discussionFollow

#1 Apr 29 2011 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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So far I have only played a Rogue, Nightblade or Assassin to be more exact, and I find the diminishing returns unbelievable to be honest.

Example:

I play Assassin, I have an opener which stuns for 4 sec, does some damage (quite a burst, but definately not more than 10% of a targets health on a crit), gives 2 combo points (3 talented) and costs 50 energy. This is an obvious opener, as it ends up dealing more damage than Assassinate on armor heavy targets, and the 4 sec stun is good against both melee classes and casters (the damage is water based).

That is all good, but it only stuns for 3 sec instead of 4 on an enemy. That would be fair if you had something to follow it up with. Oh, I actually do!

I have this ability, costs 20 energy, stuns for 4 sec, no damage, and has a 30 sec cooldown. Nice one, another 3 sec stun on a player. Ehm... No, in fact it stuns for 1 sec if used after a stun-opener. This makes this spell worth nothing but a 20 energy interrupt on a 30 sec cooldown in PvP. Since rogues have close to no survivability (we do have some, but no heals or other crazy cc to get a breathing space), controlling our enemies is essential.

To sum it all up, I think the diminishing returns in PvP are way to punishing. What are your thoughts on this matter?

Another subject I would like to get others opinion on is the use of arenas. Now I used to be a wow fanboy until the release of Cataclysm, and PvP have always been a major part of my gaming experience in mmorpgs. Diminishing returns aside, I think Rift would have the potential of taking PvP to a higher level by introducing arenas, as I find Warfronts extremely gank'ish with people runnning around in a group, focusing one target down at a time. Ofcourse there are exceptions, but I'm sure you've experienced this matter aswell.


tl;dr: what are your thoughts on diminishing returns and eventually implementing an arena system that has some of the same qualities as World of Warcraft?
#2 Apr 29 2011 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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If you think it sucks having the Diminishing Returns, wait till you are on the receiving end and get, say, squirreled. I won't say Diminishing Returns are an awesome idea, but given a choice of having it versus being essentially perma-stunlocked, I'll take the Diminishing Returns. Otherwise any mage with Quicken Form can permanently lock you down. It may be fun for some people to essentially have a target who can't do anything back to you, but it's not fun for the target.
#3 Apr 29 2011 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
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Diminishing Returns are being addressed in the next patch to be a little more even without making CC abilities too powerful.

As for arenas... My personal opinion is that they aren't useful for anything other than ******** up class balance.

No hear me out. When WoW implemented arena-style combat it caused all kinds of class balancing problems which Blizzard spent the next TWO EXPANSIONS trying to correct finally ending in the 2v2 bracket being ignored for meaningful standings and the move to rated battlegrounds as the preferred style of top-level pvp.

Rated Battlegrounds (warfronts) would be a far more meaningful addition to pvp endgame than arenas. Really, the game isn't designed around combat between very small groups of players, it's designed as a massively multiplayer game and therefore large groups are preferred (and that's what the game is designed to use). Balancing around 1v1 or 2v2 style combat is simply impossible without the entire game being meant for nothing but that.

Your observations about warfronts seem to be exactly what pvp combat is supposed to be. A team effort, not an individual one. You're a member of a team, and if you've done a lot of warfronts I'm sure you've noticed that the team that wins is usually the one that acts as a unit and works together to accomplish their objectives rather than the team full of lone wolves that go out in search of 1v1 (or 1vPet) combat
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#4 Apr 29 2011 at 4:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Paralyzing Strike is a four second stun in warfronts. Foul Play is 2 seconds after diminishing returns.

Paralyzing Strike is also a sub-par opener, especailly against armored targets. Jagged Strike will ultimately do a lot more damage that bypasses armor (with the balancing aspect that it gives healers more time to respond).

With the rogue changes in 1.2, I could see us opening with Assassinate on mages and other rogues, Jagged Strike on warriors and possibly clerics. The only time I open with Paralyzing Strike is for a chance to land an interrupt on a long-cast heal or to stall someone going after one of my healers and give them a chance to top up and possibly run away. It's just not a great opener from a damage point of view. Prior to the proposed CC changes with 1.2, you were better off opening with Jagged Strike or (if you were feeling cheeky) Assassinate and follow up immediately with Malicious Strike for the snare.

And that hints at the possible issue. This change puts an edge in the hands of ranged classes who can gain snare immunity and then kite all day long. If you can't kill someone in 30 seconds of immunity to their snares and roots, you're not going to kill them at all.

Having said all that, what works in the favor of others can also work in my favor. Break Free is being given a 5 second CC immunity component on use. The CC changes will force a lot of people to adjust how they play, but I can't say for sure one way or another whether it will ultimately be a good thing or a bad thing.
#5 Apr 29 2011 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Stuns are frankly terrible as a game mechanic. Removing all control form a players is a bad idea. Many games that are highly focused on balance and competitive play shy away from them (both Hon and LoL greatly reduced them from their prevalence in DotA).
#6 Apr 29 2011 at 7:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
Stuns are frankly terrible as a game mechanic. Removing all control form a players is a bad idea. Many games that are highly focused on balance and competitive play shy away from them (both Hon and LoL greatly reduced them from their prevalence in DotA).


Over-use of CC in general is a horrible, horrible way to allow PvP to play out in groups. I just did a (really bad) Black Garden match on my rogue and even at level 19 the number of snares getting thrown at me was bloody obscene. I reached a point where I was thinking to myself, "Wow, it feels like I've been snared for ages" so I started counting. For the following 20 seconds AFTER I started counting (which was after it felt like I had been snared for ages) I was snared continuously. Champion charges in -> root. Root wears off, he hits Leg Sweep. Now I'm snared. This whole time I'm loading him up with charges (because despite what sabs (don't) do at 50, they still kick *** in lowbie brackets). Warrior bits are flying all over the map, I'm feeling pretty good about myself.

Enemy rogue pops up behind me. Rogue is at half health. I drop an Adhesive Bomb, they tag me with Malicious Strike. Snared again. It was like some sick and twisted High Elf/Kelari ******* love scene with the two of us running around in slow motion. Blow up the rogue. Still feeling pretty good about myself.

Another champion charges in. Snared again. Blow him up. Some caster snares me. LoS him. It was just snare after snare after snare and the whole time I'm thinking, "Ya, getting rid of this **** is a pretty good idea." Stuns were something I was getting used to because the DR made them less effective and irritating than they otherwise might have been. Sap/Mez...meh. Breaks on damage. But the snares...good gawd the snares....
#7 Apr 29 2011 at 8:21 PM Rating: Good
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Well according to Trion, snares and roots will share DR come 1.2, so all that champion charging will eventually make you immune to snares
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#8 Apr 29 2011 at 10:29 PM Rating: Good
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All this snare stuff is why I started playing 34 MM / 32 NB / 0 Inf.

I stay at max range, I've got snare breaks, tons of mobility and I can actually kill stuff r5 and below.
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#9 Apr 29 2011 at 11:00 PM Rating: Decent
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man, Assassin is hard to play competitively compared to other classes. it's funny cuz Sins have tons of options available, the problem is they are all active abilities using the GC. you must choose if you want to damage, snare, stun, semi-heal, defend, dot, buff, debuff, or escape...you may do any of these but only one at a time.

i compare this to my lvl 20 melee cleric. in one strike i can damage, snare, defuff, dot, and add a healing conviction. i can spam one strike this for added effect. roll in to a group of 4 enemies and press 1,1,1,1,2,1,1,1,2,1,1,1 and sooner or later you win.

by contrast, i will plan my attack on my rogue, set it up with saps, expose, and openers. stun for a few secs and try to get the job done. all the enemy needs to do is hit his "oh ****" button and spam his monkey buttons FTW. boo.

i watched a mage defend a node. he would HoT himself constantly and if i made a move, he would fear + DoT me to ****. my attacks did nothing, my defense was nil, and even my escapes were easily thwarted.

if we can't effectively stun-lock, boost our damage. i really don't want to roll hunter for the iWin factor and sticking bombs as a Sab just isn't my thing.



#10 Apr 30 2011 at 12:25 AM Rating: Decent
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tommyguns wrote:
man, Assassin is hard to play competitively compared to other classes. it's funny cuz Sins have tons of options available, the problem is they are all active abilities using the GC. you must choose if you want to damage, snare, stun, semi-heal, defend, dot, buff, debuff, or escape...you may do any of these but only one at a time.

i compare this to my lvl 20 melee cleric. in one strike i can damage, snare, defuff, dot, and add a healing conviction. i can spam one strike this for added effect. roll in to a group of 4 enemies and press 1,1,1,1,2,1,1,1,2,1,1,1 and sooner or later you win.

by contrast, i will plan my attack on my rogue, set it up with saps, expose, and openers. stun for a few secs and try to get the job done. all the enemy needs to do is hit his "oh sh*t" button and spam his monkey buttons FTW. boo.

i watched a mage defend a node. he would HoT himself constantly and if i made a move, he would fear + DoT me to ****. my attacks did nothing, my defense was nil, and even my escapes were easily thwarted.

if we can't effectively stun-lock, boost our damage. i really don't want to roll hunter for the iWin factor and sticking bombs as a Sab just isn't my thing.


Assassins are getting a damage boost with 1.2. At first I wasn't really all that thrilled with the numbers I was seeing, but by the time you factor in all our damage bonuses from the assassin soul, they might not be too bad. In particular, Backstab, Assassinate, and Serpent's Strike are getting buffed.

Top rank Backstab is going from 103-107 damage modifier + 50% contribution from AP to 163-167 +100% AP (but it's being put on a 6 second CD).

Serpent's Strike is going from 230-235 damage modifier on a 10s CD to 318-324 on an 8s CD.

Assassinate is going from 437-444 modifer to 540-549.

When 1.2 goes live I'll probably switch back over to my Defiant rogue to test things out. Maybe all the Defiant mage and cleric rerolls I've been going up against as a Guardian in the lower brackets will be reaching 50 and I can get some enjoyment out of Defiant side for a while again.
#11 Apr 30 2011 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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I'm telling you man, go 34mm/32sin. You can kill **** and you're not so "one and done" when you pop out of stealth.
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#12 Apr 30 2011 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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could you link me the spec you are talking about?
#13 Apr 30 2011 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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This is the spec.
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