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#1 Jun 03 2011 at 7:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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This guy says so, and this screenshot appears to confirm.

I like his game of "What addons do you want?" so I'm going to play. You too, right?

- Unit Frames. I don't need a click-to-heal addon such as Healbot or VuhDo; I didn't even use one in WoW where I used a lot of addons. But I would very much like to customize what and where information is displayed. Mostly I'd just like to see my HoTs on the raid frames, and I know I've heard many others here say the same.

- Action Bars. Rift did a good job with the standard UI on this, but there are still some little things I'd like to do, such as change the number of buttons on a particular bar, and arrange it in columns/rows instead of just horizontally or vertically.

- Baggy goodness. Please.

That's really about it. I got used to using a lot of mods in the last game, but with Rift I've just as quickly become used to living without them. I wouldn't mind some timers too, but people seem to be opposed to them because putting the information next to my head instead of someplace less convenient may constitute "playing the game for me," and frankly I don't care enough to fight about it. :)

I know the meter debate is a hot one. I'm not particularly passionate either way, probably because my WoW guild didn't abuse the meters so I didn't have a lot of bad experiences with them. I wouldn't be opposed to having some information for my own personal use, but OTOH as a healer it's kind of easy to measure how well I'm doing by the ratio of standing bodies to dead ones.
#2 Jun 03 2011 at 7:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Possibly. Through the beta tests the devs have commented that they're not opposed to offering addon support, but that if they're going to put it in they want to do it right. I don't think it's something super high on their list of priorities and there's a segment of players on their forums that argue against them because to those users, "addons" is synonymous with "things that play the game for you".
#3 Jun 03 2011 at 8:16 AM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
there's a segment of players on their forums that argue against them because to those users, "addons" is synonymous with "things that play the game for you".


Yes, but those people may be safely ignored.

Trion has stated from day one that they want an addon API but, as you said, they want to do it right and provide the quality support it deserves so it just wouldn't be ready at launch.

My wishlist for addons (and depending on how their API and language works, I may do some of these myself):
- Bags, dear god bags
- Mail opening and calculation
- Unit frames (I actually WOULD like a click interface with these, I loved HealBot and would like to have it back please)
- Actionbar shaping. I can kind of finagle them to the way I want (or something close) now but there are still things about them I'd like to configure and make them better
- Game window resolution manipulation. Back in WoW I had an addon that put the game in a letterbox (those black lines you see at the top and bottom of your screen when you watch a widescreen movie on a 20+ year old TV) that would allow me to place game elements in the black space instead of taking up game window space with them, thus increasing visible space.
- Outfitter or something similar. I realize Rift can do this already but it doesn't do it very well
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#4 Jun 03 2011 at 8:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
I don't think it's something super high on their list of priorities


I didn't either, until I saw that screenshot. I was surprised. Never thought they'd do this so soon, if ever. Maybe it'll still come to nothing, who knows.
#5 Jun 03 2011 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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I can manage without most of them but what I would really, really like is something like Altoholic. Trying to organise collections across multiple alts by memory is painful. I am spending a lot in postage between alts only to find that they already have that one.

I'm happy with the interface flexibility and I can live without Recount and its friends - and I definitely never want to see GS in this game.

The trouble with an open interface is that it creates an unnecessary arms race between the devs and the app-writers because the latter will always find a way to do something that the former never intended to be possible. At this stage in the game I think they could better focus their attention on the issues - wonderfully few for a new game but nonetheless there.
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#6 Jun 03 2011 at 8:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Cobra101 wrote:

The trouble with an open interface is that it creates an unnecessary arms race between the devs and the app-writers because the latter will always find a way to do something that the former never intended to be possible. At this stage in the game I think they could better focus their attention on the issues - wonderfully few for a new game but nonetheless there.


I don't know anything about this, can they not exercise more control than, say, Blizzard did? Dictate what kinds of addons are possible or even only allow the use of certain pre-approved ones rather than just having anyone be able to upload stuff to Curse? Or is it an all or nothing type thing?
#7 Jun 03 2011 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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If the interface is truly open then no it is very hard to stop people doing whatever they like with the tools you give them. Blizzard went through a fairly protracted process of changing the interface to defeat gamebreaking mods.

They weren't stupid but the ingenuity of the addon writers is amazing. And of course everytime they changed the interface it broke a whole load of perfectly innocent mods.

One model that might work is some kind of AppStore approach where the Rift Client would only load addons from an in-house library. This would, as you suggest, give Trion the opportunity to vet them. But I'm not sure they'd want to put the energy into doing this. I think it could save them work in the long run though.

What no developer wants to do is take on the responsibility for addons they have not written and which may break due to developments.

Perhaps if it was tightly enough integrated they could automatically disable the ones that had not been updated post build - although at the current rate of build release that would pretty much mean nothing ever worked Smiley: smile
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#8 Jun 03 2011 at 9:41 AM Rating: Default
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teacake wrote:
Cobra101 wrote:

The trouble with an open interface is that it creates an unnecessary arms race between the devs and the app-writers because the latter will always find a way to do something that the former never intended to be possible. At this stage in the game I think they could better focus their attention on the issues - wonderfully few for a new game but nonetheless there.


I don't know anything about this, can they not exercise more control than, say, Blizzard did? Dictate what kinds of addons are possible or even only allow the use of certain pre-approved ones rather than just having anyone be able to upload stuff to Curse? Or is it an all or nothing type thing?


It is all or nothing really. Not a programmer, but as a analyst, I have seen how just a small user base can come up with a method or purpose or implementation within a system that wasn't even in the realm of thought when it was being designed. It is just so difficult to control. And then you have a 'whack a mole' thing where Trion has to manage hacks/bots popping up and break them only for them to turn around and have them reappear elsewhere. And like the camel head in the tent, slowly but surely add-on bloat takes the game over and devs have to develop against the add-ons.

I would hope Trion just adds little conveniences like Action Bar customization and options for Unit Frames that are managed within the actual game UI and others.

Sure I'd like a little more information on the fly, sure I'd like to measure if what I am doing is working, but there is an eye-test for these things too and I bet the in-game community would benefit more from people learning how to play competently to proficiently without the aid of add-ons. It is a minority of gamers that garner the most benefits of many of these add-ons.

I hope they resist this or fear the game will become Add-Rift.

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#9 Jun 03 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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Well, by the looks of it it's too late for that. The point of my OP was that the debate is moot now because addons would appear to be coming with 1.3.

Whether it's worth the extra time and resources Trion will have to put into managing the situation, when they have so much else to do with such a young game, I guess I'll trust them to decide. Although so help me, if this crap delays my barber shop even further, I am toilet papering somebody's house.

Gameplay-wise, I do think it's a shame that the specifics aren't more controllable. I very very rarely pugged in WoW and even I'm on the gear-score-is-the-devil's-plaything bandwagon. I don't want or expect Trion to get into the business of nannying and I don't think they should withhold addons just because some jerks will use them to make them better jerks. But I do have some hope that the Rift community, being smaller and, I think on the whole, a bit more mature than what I experienced in WoW, will do a better job of self-policing.
#10 Jun 03 2011 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I just want an AH add on, bags, and something to improve the targeting as well as name plates. Bad enough as a tank I am so used to tab targeting that whenever I do I have to be careful not to pull too much for the group if something else is nearby. And god we need some bags, they should've learned from WoW that multiple bags can get messy.

One thing I hope they can even do is find an Add On to make macros with a simple drag and drop interface. I could go on for the things I want simplified, but I think these are top 3:


1. Name Plates
2. Bags
3. Unit Frames
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#11 Jun 03 2011 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure I'm understanding what problem people have with bags that they need an addon to deal with. Not only is there a search feature in rift for you bag contents but how exactly do you "lose" **** in your bags, I have never understood how people can't find things in their bags. I have the 24 slot backpack and full 22 slot bags, and NEVER have issues finding what I need.
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#12 Jun 03 2011 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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delindsay90210 wrote:
I'm not sure I'm understanding what problem people have with bags that they need an addon to deal with. Not only is there a search feature in rift for you bag contents but how exactly do you "lose" sh*t in your bags, I have never understood how people can't find things in their bags. I have the 24 slot backpack and full 22 slot bags, and NEVER have issues finding what I need.


Happens more in my bank than my bags, in which you know where something SHOULD be, but it somehow isn't there and you can't remember how to spell it.

Frankly, the entire concept of the multiple bag inventory is archaic. Am I seriously to believe that my character is running around with 5 massive backpacks strapped on, each containing various random crap from my quests as well as an assortment of plants, rocks, wood, animal skins, and a golf club bag full of weapons? No? Of course I'm not, because that's ridiculous.

So there's no immersion factor to consider here, why not just make inventory management as painless as possible by sticking it all in one place and maybe sorting stuff by category for you. I'm totally willing to go with the "limited space" concept, because that one's fine and adds to character progression as well as helping to prevent economic damage caused by hoarding, but the multiple bag setup is just silly.
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#13 Jun 03 2011 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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For me it's not a matter of losing things in the bags. It's a matter of clutter. Having one bag window that I can customize the rows and columns in, and resize, makes it a lot less intrusive on my UI. Having inventory take up one slot on an action bar instead of four is also nice.
#14 Jun 03 2011 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
delindsay90210 wrote:
I'm not sure I'm understanding what problem people have with bags that they need an addon to deal with. Not only is there a search feature in rift for you bag contents but how exactly do you "lose" sh*t in your bags, I have never understood how people can't find things in their bags. I have the 24 slot backpack and full 22 slot bags, and NEVER have issues finding what I need.


Happens more in my bank than my bags, in which you know where something SHOULD be, but it somehow isn't there and you can't remember how to spell it.

I'm not sure how that would make a bag add-on more helpful, considering the bank inventory is just one huge space, unless you are referring to the bag slots below?

Archmage Callinon wrote:

Frankly, the entire concept of the multiple bag inventory is archaic. Am I seriously to believe that my character is running around with 5 massive backpacks strapped on, each containing various random crap from my quests as well as an assortment of plants, rocks, wood, animal skins, and a golf club bag full of weapons? No? Of course I'm not, because that's ridiculous. [...]

To be honest, I just treat all of the bags like smaller versions of the Bags of Holding from D&D. They're compact and light enough to carry, but are magically able to hold the space for your items in a bag the size of a 4 item sack. I will be very amused if they introduce a bag item called "Portable Hole" to the mix later.

#15 Jun 03 2011 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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Ravashack wrote:
I'm not sure how that would make a bag add-on more helpful, considering the bank inventory is just one huge space, unless you are referring to the bag slots below?


I am.

Ravashack wrote:

To be honest, I just treat all of the bags like smaller versions of the Bags of Holding from D&D. They're compact and light enough to carry, but are magically able to hold the space for your items in a bag the size of a 4 item sack. I will be very amused if they introduce a bag item called "Portable Hole" to the mix later.


Then why do a breastplate and a pebble take up the same amount of room?

Like I said, there's no immersion factor to consider here. Your inventory is X number of slots that progressively gets larger as you upgrade it, it's not a real construct, it's an abstraction. So being an abstraction, why not just make it simple?

Edited, Jun 3rd 2011 3:33pm by Callinon
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#16 Jun 03 2011 at 4:44 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:

Ravashack wrote:

To be honest, I just treat all of the bags like smaller versions of the Bags of Holding from D&D. They're compact and light enough to carry, but are magically able to hold the space for your items in a bag the size of a 4 item sack. I will be very amused if they introduce a bag item called "Portable Hole" to the mix later.


Then why do a breastplate and a pebble take up the same amount of room?

Like I said, there's no immersion factor to consider here. Your inventory is X number of slots that progressively gets larger as you upgrade it, it's not a real construct, it's an abstraction. So being an abstraction, why not just make it simple?

Edited, Jun 3rd 2011 3:33pm by Callinon


It's not that it takes up the same amount of room, it's that the game is handwaving the other behavior you WOULD be taking if you were actually storing many small objects with bigger objects in the same bag.

But on a non-RP viewpoint, not everyone likes having one big inventory grid covering half of your screen pop up every time you want to access something in your inventory.

The benefit of the individual bags over one big block is that if you actually organize your stuff in the bags by the bag, it's far less disruptive to only open that one bag for the item(s) than open the big inventory grid for all of them. I know I'd also rather swap a bag to switch out backup gear in use than to move the gear one by one from one bag to another bag or to a bank.

It's also very hazardous to your character's health to cover up a large portion of your screen on a PvP server.
#17 Jun 03 2011 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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Ravashack wrote:

It's not that it takes up the same amount of room, it's that the game is handwaving the other behavior you WOULD be taking if you were actually storing many small objects with bigger objects in the same bag.

But on a non-RP viewpoint, not everyone likes having one big inventory grid covering half of your screen pop up every time you want to access something in your inventory.

The benefit of the individual bags over one big block is that if you actually organize your stuff in the bags by the bag, it's far less disruptive to only open that one bag for the item(s) than open the big inventory grid for all of them. I know I'd also rather swap a bag to switch out backup gear in use than to move the gear one by one from one bag to another bag or to a bank.

It's also very hazardous to your character's health to cover up a large portion of your screen on a PvP server.


All completely legit, which is why this problem can be solved (or not solved) with addons at the user's discretion Smiley: grin
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#18 Jun 03 2011 at 5:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Awesome - I just want the ability to change the shape of my action bars. I like the main one in a calculator pattern to match the side of my mouse (Naga). Helps to visualize what I need to press next - as I just cannot keybind much. Just can't do it. I'm lucky my left hand can move at all much less press keys with any sort of swiftness and precision.

It would go a long way not only for convenience but also for accessibility for those who can't expertly dual wield a keyboard and a mouse.

#19 Jun 03 2011 at 5:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Trion Worlds has confirmed that Addons are coming to Rift, and that the Addons API has recently been released on the Public Test Shard. Link: http://rift.zam.com/story.html?story=26600. I'm always a fan of official confirmations. Smiley: smile

Trion has also opened up an official forum section for Addon API development: http://forums.riftgame.com/forumdisplay.php?351-Alpha-Addon-API-Development.
#20 Jun 03 2011 at 10:11 PM Rating: Good
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Looks like Zam is going to support a Rift addon database through their mmoui.com vassal state

This according to Calthine, via Rift's forums: http://forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?202371-Addon-dev-site!&p=2545094&viewfull=1#post2545094

Edited, Jun 3rd 2011 11:11pm by Callinon

Edited, Jun 3rd 2011 11:12pm by Callinon
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#21 Jun 04 2011 at 6:46 AM Rating: Decent
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One addon that I would really like to see, is something equivalent to 'Altoholic', which would allow to check inventory and bank of alts. So that you know where to send stuff to, or which alt to log to retrieve stuff.
#22 Jun 04 2011 at 7:48 AM Rating: Default
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I'm not sure this is a good thing for Rift. The game already has a great play feel. I think that add-ons bring in a bit of instability and "dumb" down the game a bit.

There are some cosmetic items I wish I could change, but I would prefer to have the game run smooth, and keep the default interface, than to start bringing in add-ons.

Each to their own I guess. That's what makes this MMO world so great, personal choices..
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#23 Jun 04 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Default
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#24 Jun 04 2011 at 8:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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TH3N0RTHSID3 wrote:
Why I left WoW


Really?

You quit WoW because it had addons?

Pardon me for saying so, but that's a pretty flimsy reason.

You don't even know what addons in Rift will be allowed to do or how they'll be allowed to hook into the game.

But no, go ahead and assume the worst possible scenario is going to happen, it's not like you seem to need a GOOD reason to do things.
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#25 Jun 05 2011 at 1:23 AM Rating: Default
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The UI in this game doesn't really need addons (although i could see some people like it)... although I would love a HUD type addon and that addon that made the dmg txt look like an old batman comic (oh the lolz)

I would defiantly like to see bag organizers by the time they introduce guild banks though.

And i defiantly would like something to help manage the alts (i have 1 of each calling)

Personally I'm a little on the fence about the idea of having a healbot type addon... i played in guilds where such addons were banned due to several raid wipes being due to healers that used healbot and kind of didn't pay attention.
Imho it kind of takes away some of the need to pay attention and interact (at least it did with pally healers) and it functioned more as a crutch for many healers.

My opinion on addons are that they should be limited via some sort of control for the communities best interest. Addons should allow for customization and to make certain monotony less so, but I feel that the preservation of difficulty in the game needs to be a focus. One of the things that ****** me off in WoW was having people who couldnt function without their addons because they did so much for them.
Also I don't want to every see anything like Gear Score... but I would like to see a Gear Calculator... something that tells you the +s and -s you'd gain from switching out gear... the rare stats (cause i hate having to use excel sheets).
And in game DPS meters have their place.... but warn players that public posting of them is grounds for banning, i hate when people spam local with dps charts.

but idk... thats my 2cents
#26 Jun 05 2011 at 7:59 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Personally I'm a little on the fence about the idea of having a healbot type addon... i played in guilds where such addons were banned due to several raid wipes being due to healers that used healbot and kind of didn't pay attention.
Imho it kind of takes away some of the need to pay attention and interact (at least it did with pally healers) and it functioned more as a crutch for many healers.


Uh... Healbot is just a raid frame with a clickcasting interface, no different than VuhDo or Grid/Clique
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#27 Jun 05 2011 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Uh... Healbot is just a raid frame with a clickcasting interface, no different than VuhDo or Grid/Clique


I know exactly what healbot is and all these others... I feel that they fundamentally change the game by giving players a crutch. Here is an example: I ran a couple raids in WoW with a particular paladin healer (sorry boys but pally healers were notorious for using healbot) that used healbot and like a 6 button mouse to get everything needed for raiding down to one hand. Normally I would give such a guy kudos, because I would do a similar thing on my druid using a mouse and macros, but this guy had several random wipes to his name that no one really understood. One day on vent we started wiping in a raid (mostly due to lack of tank heals from our pally) and i think i here something, so i boost the guys audio and I am astounded to find out the guy is breathing very heavily.... it didn't take long to realize the guy was using his free hand for some recreational dating. After weeks of giving the guy a hard time, we ran across another problem, when the guy was visiting family for weeks and was playing on another person's computer he lacked all of his addons was literally the most worthless player I've ever seen.

Addons should improve the game.... not be a crutch.
#28 Jun 05 2011 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Looks like Zam is going to support a Rift addon database through their mmoui.com vassal state


"Vassal State"?? *snicker*
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#29 Jun 05 2011 at 9:58 AM Rating: Good
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TheRocky wrote:
Quote:
Uh... Healbot is just a raid frame with a clickcasting interface, no different than VuhDo or Grid/Clique


I know exactly what healbot is and all these others... I feel that they fundamentally change the game by giving players a crutch. Here is an example: I ran a couple raids in WoW with a particular paladin healer (sorry boys but pally healers were notorious for using healbot) that used healbot and like a 6 button mouse to get everything needed for raiding down to one hand. Normally I would give such a guy kudos, because I would do a similar thing on my druid using a mouse and macros, but this guy had several random wipes to his name that no one really understood. One day on vent we started wiping in a raid (mostly due to lack of tank heals from our pally) and i think i here something, so i boost the guys audio and I am astounded to find out the guy is breathing very heavily.... it didn't take long to realize the guy was using his free hand for some recreational dating. After weeks of giving the guy a hard time, we ran across another problem, when the guy was visiting family for weeks and was playing on another person's computer he lacked all of his addons was literally the most worthless player I've ever seen.

Addons should improve the game.... not be a crutch.


That's not the addon's fault, it sounds like that guy just sucked.

I healed as a shaman in WoW with HealBot for just over a year (in heroic raids) and was consistently the highest on healing and lowest on overhealing and my debuff cleansing was always very high as well. I credit this to having a UI that worked for me and that I was able to execute well.

If you make significant changes to your UI, get used to using that, and then move to a computer without those changes: your performance will drop significantly. It doesn't really have anything to do with the missing addons, it has to do with no longer being comfortable with the UI.

During the Cataclysm beta, I healed with no addons, and while I was able to do fine I couldn't do as well because the information wasn't being presented in the way I was used to and turned the UI into an obstacle instead of a tool (just because I wasn't as familiar with using the default UI as I was my own).

Raid frames are not a crutch. If they were, then a bad player could take them and suddenly be good (or even just average), and this isn't the case. Raid frames are a tool and if you know how to use the tool, your performance will improve as a result.

Quote:
"Vassal State"?? *snicker*


Would you prefer "protectorate?" Smiley: grin

Edited, Jun 5th 2011 10:59am by Callinon
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#30 Jun 05 2011 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Raid frames are not a crutch. If they were, then a bad player could take them and suddenly be good (or even just average), and this isn't the case. Raid frames are a tool and if you know how to use the tool, your performance will improve as a result.


Healbot is alot more than just raid frames... and you know that, otherwise it would be completely unnessary since one can just turn a party into a raid (common practice in dungeons).

Frankly I dont see the need for healbot when you can just make all your heals mouseover macros and just use the mouse to mouse over and just punch w/e button combination does the heal ... thats pretty much exactly what healbot does for you, but they just make use of buttons that would otherwise already have a function.

Many people used healbot as a tool.. like you did... to max your hps, min your overheals, and max your decursing (i used a decurse addon myself when i played wow). Thats GREAT, its ment to be a tool.
BUT i call it a crutch cause I know PLENTY of ****** healers that could only heal at an average or even good level with healbot, and i know plenty of raiders that felt that raiding was only doable with healbot. And I know plenty of people that were gimped any time healbot was unavailable.

The issue with any addon that makes such a difference in game play is the appearnce of the Elitest Jerk (lolz) syndrom, where-in if you dont have the addon than you must be a noob and not raid worthy. This is something that I feel would hurt the Rift community because its one of the driving forces people leave WoW for.

I personally feel that most addons should be restricted to cosmetic changes, filters, and data presentation. When you start messing with addons that alter and affect gameplay, you start igniting major contravorsies.

#31 Jun 05 2011 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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TheRocky wrote:
Quote:
Raid frames are not a crutch. If they were, then a bad player could take them and suddenly be good (or even just average), and this isn't the case. Raid frames are a tool and if you know how to use the tool, your performance will improve as a result.


Healbot is alot more than just raid frames... and you know that, otherwise it would be completely unnessary since one can just turn a party into a raid (common practice in dungeons).

Frankly I dont see the need for healbot when you can just make all your heals mouseover macros and just use the mouse to mouse over and just punch w/e button combination does the heal ... thats pretty much exactly what healbot does for you, but they just make use of buttons that would otherwise already have a function.


You're right, I could, but that really isn't the same thing at all.

While a mouseover macro does sort of accomplish the same thing, it isn't the same as clickcasting my heals (one action as opposed to two). Also I hate the way Rift's unit frames and raid frames display information with the fiery intensity of a thousand suns

TheRocky wrote:

Many people used healbot as a tool.. like you did... to max your hps, min your overheals, and max your decursing (i used a decurse addon myself when i played wow). Thats GREAT, its ment to be a tool.
BUT i call it a crutch cause I know PLENTY of sh*tty healers that could only heal at an average or even good level with healbot, and i know plenty of raiders that felt that raiding was only doable with healbot. And I know plenty of people that were gimped any time healbot was unavailable.


Again, this has far more to do with the quality of the individual player's skill, and far less to do with the presence or absence of the addon.

Having a new tool to use will not suddenly make a bad player good, it just doesn't work like that. Unless you have an addon that literally plays the game for you (and I think we can safely assume Trion won't allow that kind of automation), an addon just can't alter your performance by that wide a margin without the requisite skill to go along with it.

TheRocky wrote:

The issue with any addon that makes such a difference in game play is the appearnce of the Elitest Jerk (lolz) syndrom, where-in if you dont have the addon than you must be a noob and not raid worthy. This is something that I feel would hurt the Rift community because its one of the driving forces people leave WoW for.

I personally feel that most addons should be restricted to cosmetic changes, filters, and data presentation. When you start messing with addons that alter and affect gameplay, you start igniting major contravorsies.


I always get a chuckle any time someone determines a raid slot based solely on the presence or absence of an addon. Frankly, this isn't a person you want to be raiding with even if he weren't doing that. And this type of person doesn't need addons to push that agenda, he'll find a way regardless.

Everything affects gameplay. Anytime you make a change to your UI you've affected your own gameplay because your information is being presented in a different way (maybe better, maybe worse). Saying that you want to disallow anything that affects gameplay means that you can't ever customize anything because it might create an advantage over a person without that customization. So you can't have more than one action bar, you can't move any of your UI elements, you can't change the zoom level of your camera, you can't play at a resolution larger than 480p, and you can't have a ping time that's superior to dialup because it would create an advantage versus a person running minimum game spec.

An addon that can't play the game for you can never create a situation in which you're doing something you would otherwise be incapable of doing. What it can do is make information easier for you to process and maybe provide an interface that you're more comfortable with using (thus making the UI less of a hindrance to playing the game).
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#32 Jun 05 2011 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
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The one thing I would like to see regarding bags and space are bags specific to collecting materials. Mining, herbing etc. This would make bag space much easier, to have an item drop in that bag when collected. Not sure if this is a specific addon feature but it would be nice to see.
#33 Jun 05 2011 at 8:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:


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"Vassal State"?? *snicker*


Would you prefer "protectorate?" Smiley: grin



It's just a ZAM network site, lol. Just like this one, and WowHead.
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#34 Jun 05 2011 at 9:07 PM Rating: Good
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Calthine wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:


Quote:
"Vassal State"?? *snicker*


Would you prefer "protectorate?" Smiley: grin



It's just a ZAM network site, lol. Just like this one, and WowHead.


Boo, you're no fun Smiley: frown
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#35 Jun 06 2011 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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So obvious question to the Zam mods. You guys are pretty famous for WoWhead. Will Zam be able to get direct info from Trion like you guys do with WoW?

#36 Jun 06 2011 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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Puremallace wrote:
So obvious question to the Zam mods. You guys are pretty famous for WoWhead. Will Zam be able to get direct info from Trion like you guys do with WoW?



That's already happening. Trion delivers all its previously-discovered data in neat little brown paper bags amusingly referred to as "dumps."

WoWHead worked through an addon that just collected whatever data gained by people with that addon and fed it back to the wowhead server wherein magic happened and it showed up in the database.

Now that Trion is adding an addon API, I don't doubt something similar will be done with Rift, though it's not strictly necessary since Trion is already providing all that information themselves
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#37 Jun 06 2011 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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The current system is heavily reliant on us to go in and add notes to the database. If I remember right the one they use for WoW does real time stuff or seems more accurate. Maybe it is because it has been around longer.

Edited, Jun 6th 2011 2:17pm by Puremallace
#38 Jun 06 2011 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Puremallace wrote:
The current system is heavily reliant on us to go in and add notes to the database. If I remember right the one they use for WoW does real time stuff or seems more accurate. Maybe it is because it has been around longer.

Edited, Jun 6th 2011 2:17pm by Puremallace


Well those notes you see all over wowhead's entries aren't being added by any automated process, they're being added by users.

The most helpful thing about wowhead has always been the comments attached to things, unfortunately there's no substitute for that other than to have people go and talk about stuff on their respective pages
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#39 Jun 06 2011 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
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ok coolest addon ever...Some type of in game interface that allows us to update the zam database without having to open up a browser..search...add comments
#40 Jun 06 2011 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Puremallace wrote:
ok coolest addon ever...Some type of in game interface that allows us to update the zam database without having to open up a browser..search...add comments


That would rock. You can do it from EQ2's in-game browser. Well, update the wiki, no one can update the db but the devs.
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#41 Jun 06 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Puremallace wrote:
So obvious question to the Zam mods. You guys are pretty famous for WoWhead. Will Zam be able to get direct info from Trion like you guys do with WoW?



So the answer to "Why can't you do it just like you did with Game X" is "all games are different; how we get the data (and what's in the data) has a lot to do with it". That's why EQ Allakhazam is different from FFIV ZAM and WoWHead.

Callinon is right, we already get data from Trion (so does everyone, it's publicly released). The difference between Rift ZAM's data and Wowhead's data comes down to how the data is obtained and what we're able to wring out of it. For example, Rift's data (and EQ2's data, now that I think about it) do not include full quest series information. EQ2's includes any pre-req quest, and Rift's has no prev/next data. WoW, on the other hand, has all that in there. So WoWHead is able to automagically parse out quest series, and over here we have to do that by hand. EQ2 and WoW data have item/mob associations (although there's issues with some of EQ2's 'cause they're hooked to encounters, not mobs), Rift's data currently doesn't and we're relying on y'all to fill in those blanks.(disclaimer: I'm not intimately familiar with WoWHead's back-end, and could be mistaken)

If we can make our data acquisition better we will, but in the meantime, we're relying on you to fill out those notes like everyone did for WoWHEad. The difference is WoW's 6+ years versus a couple of months for Rift :)
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#42 Jun 06 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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TheRocky wrote:

Healbot is alot more than just raid frames... and you know that, otherwise it would be completely unnessary since one can just turn a party into a raid (common practice in dungeons).


I don't understand this comment and I feel like you have never actually used healbot and don't know how it works. I'm one of those paladins who uses healbot, but what's interesting is that in our 10 mans I'm often asked to watch the raid while our 2-3 druids do I don't even know what. I'm not bitter, just find it funny that all of a sudden come cataclysm the tank healer is being asked to watch the raid.

Your issue with that healer has nothing to do with the add on, and by your own logic if the add on played the game for him you wouldn't even have those phantom wipes. Anyone who is whacking off during a raid and not paying attention is going to fail no matter what add ons he is using. Why? The add ons don't play the game for you. Conversely, anyone who is at the top of her game can be trusted to heal an entire group of ten people when she is given tools to make up for her handicaps.

I'll say the same thing here I said over on the rift forums - I have issues with my left hand. I can't keybind like "normal" people can and for a really long time I struggled. That is, until I discovered things like healbot and bartender. Those two add ons, along with a Razer Naga, turned someone who could barely manage a DPS rotation into someone who can tank and heal 5 and 10 mans successfully. All I needed was to consolidate everything to be within reach of my right hand - those two add ons helped me make it happen.

Now, there are some people who will use add ons to abuse others. We all know how just last expansion Gearscore was used to keep people out of raids that were well below the level of GS leaders were asking for. However, is keeping tools away from jerks like that really worth hurting people like me?
#43 Jun 06 2011 at 8:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Plain and simple.

Healbot (and similar addons) make healing easier. <- this is a drawn conclusion from your argument for it, and from first hand accounts, quotes, and posts from numerous healers from WoW that use it.
Healing is an essential part of the difficulties in a game.

Thus
Healbot makes an essential part of the difficulties in a game easier.



If you want all your heals on your right hand... so that you have no keyboard interaction other than moving... their are gaming pads for that, that won't affect how easy it is... but may make it more convenient for people who aren't as nimble.

The problem that ensues with addons like DBM, Healbot, Decruse, and other things that make essential combat parts of the game easier is that dev's run into a major question.

Do they create content on the assumption that the entire group plays without addons?
Thus creating content that will be somewhat easier for major raiding groups.

Or do they create content based on the actuality that most hardcore raiders are gonna be using addons?
Thus making content thats a little more difficult for individuals that chose not to run addons.

You keep claiming that "Addon"-loving jerks are the few... but i know for a fact this is not true... I raided with several different guilds in BC and WoTLK and if the raid started wiping they would look to me for being the cause since I refused to run healbot on my druid. (Thankfully the raid typically only wiped when some dps was an idiot and pulled aggro)
Look at the Trion forums... pages of pages of arguments over addons... and pages of pages of people trying to claim that addons dont affect the game too much.

Yes I'll agree that UI changes will make some stuff slightly easier... but thats because many of complainers are either blind... or havent realized that if in raid frames u cant see the debuffs pop up, you can scale the raid frame up in the edit layout (i do this alot), not to mention they are color coded, so unless your color blind, all it has to be is a small group a pixels for a well trained gamer's eye to see.

There are other things ... like HUDs, DPS meters, and others that represent data in a much easier fashion for people, but these styles of things aren't making any game mechanic in particular easier. Data representation tools, when used properly, can help gamers make better decisions on loot, gear, and skill rotations.

The reason healbot doesnt fall under this, is its interface with a "macro system." Which allows healers to make the pretty complex process of making in game macros obsolete, since healbot can make macros that pretty much cant be made in game. This coupled with the slight decrease reaction time and increased efficiency in healing as well as the decrease in debuff up time that are commonly seen when comparing mass amounts of healbot users to mass amount of non healbot users (ya ya no more isolated cases and blah blah) seems to confirm that healbot does affect gameplay in a fairly noticeable way.

There is a legitimate reason that many players have cursed the coming addons to Rift. And there still exists in the wow community today a pretty strong argument why certain addons should never have been allowed.

I feel that it is in Trions best interest to limit addons to data presentation/reduction/calculation, cosmetic additions(that dont affect game speed), and filters that go above and beyond the current search features in bags (especially if guild banks are going to be introduced).
#44 Jun 06 2011 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent
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TheRocky wrote:
Plain and simple.

Healbot (and similar addons) make healing easier. <- this is a drawn conclusion from your argument for it, and from first hand accounts, quotes, and posts from numerous healers from WoW that use it.
Healing is an essential part of the difficulties in a game.

Thus
Healbot makes an essential part of the difficulties in a game easier.


Granted, Healbot and similar addons make healing easier.

Will you concede that the "difficulty" you're talking about here is purely a limitation of the user interface and has little if anything to do with gameplay and encounter design?

The UI is not supposed to be an obstacle to playing the game, it's supposed to be a tool.

TheRocky wrote:

If you want all your heals on your right hand... so that you have no keyboard interaction other than moving... their are gaming pads for that, that won't affect how easy it is... but may make it more convenient for people who aren't as nimble.


I use an n52te to handle all my actionbar buttons, it gives me some 72 keybinds on my left hand, and my left thumb operates movement keys (forward, backward, strafing). I believe this has far more impact on my ability to access abilities on the fly than any addon ever could, why is this ok and addons not? ****, if anything THIS should be illegal under your argument, this thing cost actual money and would change the division of skill to be about people willing to spend money on peripherals versus those not willing or able to do so which is a far worse divide imo.

Could I use it for mouseover macros? Yes, absolutely, with keybinds to spare. I don't do that because I don't like mouseover macros, I don't like that style of healing and I'm not comfortable doing it. I prefer the clickcasting interface that an addon like Healbot or VuhDo gives me. That is not a greater advantage than having the n52 to begin with.

TheRocky wrote:

The problem that ensues with addons like DBM, Healbot, Decruse, and other things that make essential combat parts of the game easier is that dev's run into a major question.

Do they create content on the assumption that the entire group plays without addons?
Thus creating content that will be somewhat easier for major raiding groups.

Or do they create content based on the actuality that most hardcore raiders are gonna be using addons?
Thus making content thats a little more difficult for individuals that chose not to run addons.


I'd like you to watch a video

How Addons Alter Game Design

Lore does a good job of explaining this and because I'd just be plagiarizing him in this section anyway, I choose to just have him do it.

Suffice to say that addons like the ones you're talking about can and will cause devs to increase the complexity of encounters, and that this is not a bad thing since it makes encounters more interesting and less repetitive.

TheRocky wrote:

You keep claiming that "Addon"-loving jerks are the few... but i know for a fact this is not true... I raided with several different guilds in BC and WoTLK and if the raid started wiping they would look to me for being the cause since I refused to run healbot on my druid. (Thankfully the raid typically only wiped when some dps was an idiot and pulled aggro)
Look at the Trion forums... pages of pages of arguments over addons... and pages of pages of people trying to claim that addons dont affect the game too much.


They yelled at you for your healing interface choices when the problem was some dps doing something stupid? I don't think an addon is to blame for that, and I don't think an addon needed to be the target of their rage, I'm sure they'd have found SOMETHING to lay the blame on.

TheRocky wrote:

Yes I'll agree that UI changes will make some stuff slightly easier... but thats because many of complainers are either blind... or havent realized that if in raid frames u cant see the debuffs pop up, you can scale the raid frame up in the edit layout (i do this alot), not to mention they are color coded, so unless your color blind, all it has to be is a small group a pixels for a well trained gamer's eye to see.


I'm not blind.

I realize I can make my raid frames as big as the all outdoors. It doesn't address my issues with the interface for the following reasons:
A: It's not a clickcasting interface, which is what I prefer
B: The debuff BORDERS are color coded, this is ridiculously difficult to see in a hurry while also watching health bars and making sure I myself am not about to do something stupid
C: There's no way to filter cleansable debuffs
D: There's no way to filter my own buffs
E: Having huge raid frames takes up WAY too much screen space and is way to much of a kludge answer to this problem.
F: What ABOUT people who are color blind? There are a lot of them, and there are plenty more with other visual difficulties the normal interface isn't designed to handle. Why should they not have an option to fix this or why should Trion be asked to roll out a feature in the stock game that will be used by only a handful of people?

TheRocky wrote:

There are other things ... like HUDs, DPS meters, and others that represent data in a much easier fashion for people, but these styles of things aren't making any game mechanic in particular easier. Data representation tools, when used properly, can help gamers make better decisions on loot, gear, and skill rotations.


Having a better representation of vital data isn't altering anything?

TheRocky wrote:

The reason healbot doesnt fall under this, is its interface with a "macro system." Which allows healers to make the pretty complex process of making in game macros obsolete, since healbot can make macros that pretty much cant be made in game. This coupled with the slight decrease reaction time and increased efficiency in healing as well as the decrease in debuff up time that are commonly seen when comparing mass amounts of healbot users to mass amount of non healbot users (ya ya no more isolated cases and blah blah) seems to confirm that healbot does affect gameplay in a fairly noticeable way.


In-game macros are not complex. Verbose perhaps, but not complex.

And why does it matter anyway? You've as much as said here that anything HealBot does can also be done with macros, so what's the difference if I sit here and write 25 lengthy macros or just plug some data into an addon and let it do that for me?

HealBot (and other raid frame addons, don't get hung up on that one) only alter gameplay in the sense that they make the UI a tool again instead of an obstacle. The hard part of the game should be the encounters (whether PvE or PvP) and the game world, not the interface.

TheRocky wrote:

There is a legitimate reason that many players have cursed the coming addons to Rift. And there still exists in the wow community today a pretty strong argument why certain addons should never have been allowed.

I feel that it is in Trions best interest to limit addons to data presentation/reduction/calculation, cosmetic additions(that dont affect game speed), and filters that go above and beyond the current search features in bags (especially if guild banks are going to be introduced).


The only legitimate reason I have heard is that some addons go too far in trivializing certain aspects of some encounters (Vanilla WoW's Decursive and HealBot, WotLK's AVRe) and that's totally valid. However, Blizzard had a policy of breaking those addons that went too far (usually pretty quickly). Trion is not staffed by stupid people. There's no reason you shouldn't assume they know what they're doing, especially since they have way more experience doing this than you do.
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#45 Jun 07 2011 at 1:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Will you concede that the "difficulty" you're talking about here is purely a limitation of the user interface and has little if anything to do with gameplay and encounter design?

The UI is not supposed to be an obstacle to playing the game, it's supposed to be a tool.


This is probably where we disagree the most.

First ... i feel that Click-Casting makes healing easier... and i think you would most certainly have to agree with how much you are arguing for it.

Now concerning the UI
This mindset, which is the mindset of many long time addon users, is one that comes from many years of playing WoW with heavy addons I assume.
While yes, the UI is suppose to be a tool and present data.

The UI, in its current state in Rift, is the only UI, so learning to use it is part of gameplay.
Whither they mean it to or not.

And Yes your hardware is cool... but it doesn't actually do any potential automation or reduce the amount of keystrokes needed.

"Click-casting" fringes on automation due to the fact that it significantly reduces keystrokes.

For example:
Excluding middle mouse button clicks, lets say i set up a healbot like addon to where shift, alt, ctrl, and shift-alt are all combinations of click-casts i can do... so that gives me 8 spells i can have on click casting, with still having pretty decent control over movement.
Those same 8 spells, if done via normal casting I would probably have set up with 1-4 and alt 1-4. Because this doesnt stretch to far from the WASD keys and allows a healer to keep moving

Mousing over a target... and clicking a target take pretty much the same amount of time. The faction of a millisecond isnt even measurable for people who have a good computer, and i've found that when i use mouse over macros i tend to click the target anyways.

Now in combat:
1st spell
Healbot - click target 1 hand... 1 actions
Player - (either mouse-over or click) + hit 1 2 actions... 2 hands
2nd
healbot - right click 1 hand... 1 actions
Player - click + 2 2 actions... 2 hands
3rd and 4th
healbot - alt + click 2 hands.... 2 actions (although the speed is probably faster than the player)
Player - click + 3 or 4
5 - 8
healbot - combination + click 2hands... 2 actions ( buttons all close together on left hand so nice and fast)
Player - Alt + w/e number Pretty good stretching with your left hand now.

I'm not gonna convince you... and i know that... but I'm just trying to illustrate why I feel that healbot and similar mods aren't really needed, until their in use.

If you had never used Healbot... you wouldnt need it or want anything like it probably.
#46 Jun 07 2011 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
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That made less and less sense the longer it went on.

Quote:
First ... i feel that Click-Casting makes healing easier


So do I, I said as much in my last post.

What I was asking you to think about is WHY it becomes easier. The user interface is just getting in the way for no good reason. Using the interface is not supposed to contribute to the game's difficulty (I had a similar conversation with FFXIV players during that game's beta because of its abominable interface).

Quote:
And Yes your hardware is cool... but it doesn't actually do any potential automation or reduce the amount of keystrokes needed.


No, it reduces hand movement, which is the same thing. There's no way for someone without this hardware to have this many buttons accessible to one hand without MASSIVE and unintuitive keyboard reconfiguration.

Quote:
"Click-casting" fringes on automation due to the fact that it significantly reduces keystrokes


This is the point as which most anti-addon arguments fall squarely on their face. As soon as you start calling addons a tool for automation. All you're doing is setting up a strawman here (or you don't know what automation means).

Quote:
Mousing over a target... and clicking a target take pretty much the same amount of time.


So why are we having this discussion?

Quote:
Now in combat:
1st spell
Healbot - click target 1 hand... 1 actions
Player - (either mouse-over or click) + hit 1 2 actions... 2 hands


That's still two actions on the Healbot line there. I first had to mouse over the unit frame on healbot before I could use the appropriate click combination. If I'm doing it with a mouseover macro (and no addon) I have to mouse over them and push a button, which according to your own argument is not a significant difference from just clicking them.

Quote:
2nd
healbot - right click 1 hand... 1 actions
Player - click + 2 2 actions... 2 hands


Still two actions, positioning the mouse is still part of this.

Quote:
5 - 8
healbot - combination + click 2hands... 2 actions ( buttons all close together on left hand so nice and fast)
Player - Alt + w/e number Pretty good stretching with your left hand now.


Approximately nobody who's keybinding correctly with no special hardware is using any number keys beyond 5 or 6 (depending on if you shifted your movement keys to the right), it's just too much of a stretch.

I'm sure you're right in that if I had never used HealBot I wouldn't want it back, for the simple reason that I wouldn't know how smooth a healing interface could be. I've healed in other games with no such interface.

In FFXI I set up subselection macros so I could hit my cure macro, hit the button that corresponded to the party member I was healing, and push enter.

In Aion I had to click party frames and push a hotkey to heal people, same as I do in Rift now, and same as I did in WoW before I learned how to use addons.

The fact is though, once I learned how to use addons in WoW and learned to use Healbot, I realized it was the superior option and it made me really enjoy healing for the first time. And now that Rift is going to have addons, can you really blame me for wanting to have that back?
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#47 Jun 07 2011 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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The only thing I can gather from his posts is that Rocky must have used the old-school HealBot that was to some degree able to determine what spell needed to be cast on your current target when you clicked. I didn't use HealBot back then (and still don't, I like VuhDo), but I think it worked through a combination of status healing spells being uncastable if there's nothing to cleanse and having a conditional modifier for low health. That version of HealBot was broken fairly quickly.

Anyone that wants to argue against add-ons for the amount of "automation" they provide is being a hypocrite if they aren't also critical of the current macro language. Some melee classes can be boiled down to one long cascading macro that will always use your hardest-hitting strike. The only thing left for the player is a couple finishers and a CD or two.
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#48 Jun 07 2011 at 4:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Calthine wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Looks like Zam is going to support a Rift addon database through their mmoui.com vassal state


"Vassal State"?? *snicker*


I like where this is going. :)
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#49 Jun 07 2011 at 6:38 PM Rating: Good
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AstarintheDruid wrote:
The only thing I can gather from his posts is that Rocky must have used the old-school HealBot that was to some degree able to determine what spell needed to be cast on your current target when you clicked. I didn't use HealBot back then (and still don't, I like VuhDo), but I think it worked through a combination of status healing spells being uncastable if there's nothing to cleanse and having a conditional modifier for low health. That version of HealBot was broken fairly quickly.

Anyone that wants to argue against add-ons for the amount of "automation" they provide is being a hypocrite if they aren't also critical of the current macro language. Some melee classes can be boiled down to one long cascading macro that will always use your hardest-hitting strike. The only thing left for the player is a couple finishers and a CD or two.


I don't know - the only healbot version I ever used let me program in what spells I wanted to cast with the different kinds of clicks and modifers such as ctrl and alt. Then I used the numberpad for non-healing abilities like judgments and etc. It worked really well and I really don't understand this comment Rocky made:

Quote:
If you want all your heals on your right hand... so that you have no keyboard interaction other than moving... their are gaming pads for that, that won't affect how easy it is... but may make it more convenient for people who aren't as nimble.


Rocky, do you have any idea the level of interface modification I would have to do in order to make this work? I do - because when I came to WoW from FFXI this was my very first question:

"Can I use a controller?"

The answer was a resounding NO. At least, not with any hope of being able to perform as well as I could with better tools. WoW is not a game that was designed with a gamepad in mind. Period.

Besides that, how is using a controller somehow a less "evil" option than using healbot? I really don't understand why you would even suggest making things HARDER for myself when I am already battling a pretty significant handicap. I may have played XI for years, but my masochism does have its limits.....

I agree with Callinon. Your arguments are silly. I need everything on my right hand because I'm handicapped in the left - not because I am just trying to be a unique snowflake and ruin other peoples' experience. And guess what? Trion gets it. Apparently you don't.
#50 Jun 07 2011 at 10:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Trion gets it. Apparently you don't.


First off Trion has not officially said where their limits will be imposed. After reviewing the documentation they posted on the forums, its pretty obvious they only allowing certain development from the get-go as an experiment. There are only 2 commands that are open and nether are really important. But there is alot of frames and cosmetic stuff thats open.

Quote:
That's still two actions on the Healbot line there. I first had to mouse over the unit frame on healbot before I could use the appropriate click combination. If I'm doing it with a mouseover macro (and no addon) I have to mouse over them and push a button, which according to your own argument is not a significant difference from just clicking them.


You totally miss understood my argument. Mousing-over and mousing over then clicking take effectively the same amount of time, especially for long time gamers that have never used mouse over macros. So I feel this is considered 1 fluid motion.


Quote:
A: It's not a clickcasting interface, which is what I prefer
B: The debuff BORDERS are color coded, this is ridiculously difficult to see in a hurry while also watching health bars and making sure I myself am not about to do something stupid
C: There's no way to filter cleansable debuffs
D: There's no way to filter my own buffs


A: you prefer click-casting because its faster, and easier. (major affect on the game)
B: All decurseable debuffs are hit with the same spell.
C: In raid frames, with a little knowledge of bosses or mobs, the color is really easy to see, **** i can see it just fine with my VK tank and i decurse all the time. This is a fix you can go to Trion about though... tell them to put in a selection in the interface combat menu to only show debuffs that you can cure.
D: Yes there is a way to filter your own buffs. next time your in game hit esc, settings, interface, combat, and the 4th option down is a box that can be clicked so that only your buffs show on the target.


And I didn't mean to come across hostile toward the disabled. I've grown up with a disabled father, so I by no means under-appreciate your dedication to gaming. But there are types of hardware that can be purchased that will allow you to play most of the game on your right hand. In the most recant Sanctum episode on gamebraker tv, IRLJasmine showed off her mouse. I think it had around 10 or so buttons on it... devices like this in combination with the in game keybinding and the software provided for the mouse can move most of the functions you need down to your right hand.

I get your argument... you want a one stop shop, all in one, magic addon that makes healing a breeze. You feel that healing is more about casting the right spell at the right time on the right person (over and over again) and that UI shouldn't get in the way and that everything should flow as fast as possible.
My point is that some of the challenge in healing comes from the UI, and from having to be situationally aware so as to do more predictive healing and less reactive healing. Clicking on targets right as they take dmg and healing... and not waiting till the dmg is dealt and click-casting.

But really this argument is kind of pointless, because ultimately trion will draw a line in the sand and people will complain about it for months.

#51 Jun 07 2011 at 10:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Rocky, do you have any idea the level of interface modification I would have to do in order to make this work? I do - because when I came to WoW from FFXI this was my very first question:

"Can I use a controller?"


You're confusing gamepad and controller.

http://www.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=390404
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823161023

These are gamepads.
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