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#52 Jun 08 2011 at 10:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Raolan wrote:
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Rocky, do you have any idea the level of interface modification I would have to do in order to make this work? I do - because when I came to WoW from FFXI this was my very first question:

"Can I use a controller?"


You're confusing gamepad and controller.

http://www.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=390404
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823161023

These are gamepads.



How is it superior to my Razer Naga? My original point still stands that I purchased a device that allows me to keep pretty much every action on my right hand, and with a few clever tools I, too, can join in group events with success. I shouldn't have to go out and purchase that device and then learn how to use the mouse with my left hand (which probably wouldn't work out any better than it has with the keyboard) just because one guy thinks I'm somehow cheating..... It's ridiculous.

Quote:
And I didn't mean to come across hostile toward the disabled. I've grown up with a disabled father, so I by no means under-appreciate your dedication to gaming. But there are types of hardware that can be purchased that will allow you to play most of the game on your right hand. In the most recant Sanctum episode on gamebraker tv, IRLJasmine showed off her mouse. I think it had around 10 or so buttons on it... devices like this in combination with the in game keybinding and the software provided for the mouse can move most of the functions you need down to your right hand.


But you are doing exactly that - you come across as very hostile and close-minded. I'm sorry that other people are better gamers because they don't artificially inflate the difficulty of the game by ignoring tools that will make their lives easier. I get that you have a personal grudge against poor players, but you are deliberately deflecting the blame onto the tool instead of keeping it where it belongs: with the guy misusing it.

Every example you have given of how the tool damages gameplay has been explained by someone's personal actions independent of the tool. You still haven't made a good argument for why accessibility should be limited to 1 interface design and nothing else - except that you want to exclude people who can't manipulate the given interface. Listen to yourself - You complain that people are poor players because they are using a tool that by your own testimony makes the game easy mode. Almost all your statements have thus far contradicted each other and I don't even know WHAT your point is now.

Besides that, How is using an interface add on in the game any different than using an add on interface through software for a mouse? The things you suggest aren't what the developers had in mind either, but are just as invasive by your own definitions. Whether it's a tool on the screen in the game or a tool though windows - it accomplishes the same thing: It changes the way I interact with the game and overrides the developer's original design. I don't understand why one is ok and the other isn't.

I hope in a couple years when you have matured a bit you come across this thread again. You might have changed your mind about things. Frankly, you just seem silly to me.

#53 Jun 08 2011 at 10:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Torrence wrote:
Raolan wrote:
Quote:
Rocky, do you have any idea the level of interface modification I would have to do in order to make this work? I do - because when I came to WoW from FFXI this was my very first question:

"Can I use a controller?"


You're confusing gamepad and controller.

http://www.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=390404
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823161023

These are gamepads.



How is it superior to my Razer Naga? My original point still stands that I purchased a device that allows me to keep pretty much every action on my right hand, and with a few clever tools I, too, can join in group events with success. I shouldn't have to go out and purchase that device and then learn how to use the mouse with my left hand (which probably wouldn't work out any better than it has with the keyboard) just because one guy thinks I'm somehow cheating..... It's ridiculous.


Pretty sure Raolan a.k.a. the guy not arguing with you about addons is just indicating that controllers are different than gamepads. Your Razer Naga is essentially a mouse with gamepad functions. He's not saying it's inferior or trying to detract from your point, and before you reach out to bite me too, I'm not saying that either.
#54 Jun 08 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Every example you have given of how the tool damages gameplay has been explained by someone's personal actions independent of the tool.


Click-casting makes healing easier... plain and simple... everyone can agree to this right?
This damages gameplay and design because it makes a substantial difference in the game.
#55 Jun 08 2011 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent
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TheRocky wrote:
My point is that some of the challenge in healing comes from the UI, and from having to be situationally aware so as to do more predictive healing and less reactive healing. Clicking on targets right as they take dmg and healing... and not waiting till the dmg is dealt and click-casting.


That has absolutely nothing to do with using or not using an add-on. As a tank healer, especially in Wrath of the GCD the tank King, it was pretty important to always have a big heal casting on the tank, even if they didn't need it right this second. That style of healing is just intelligent use of your slow-casting heals.

TheRocky wrote:
And I didn't mean to come across hostile toward the disabled. I've grown up with a disabled father, so I by no means under-appreciate your dedication to gaming. But there are types of hardware that can be purchased that will allow you to play most of the game on your right hand. In the most recant Sanctum episode on gamebraker tv, IRLJasmine showed off her mouse. I think it had around 10 or so buttons on it... devices like this in combination with the in game keybinding and the software provided for the mouse can move most of the functions you need down to your right hand.


Also, if you have no problem with a piece of hardware being able to provide a certain functionality, why would you object to free software that does the same thing?
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#56 Jun 08 2011 at 11:39 AM Rating: Decent
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TheRocky wrote:
Quote:
Every example you have given of how the tool damages gameplay has been explained by someone's personal actions independent of the tool.


Click-casting makes healing easier... plain and simple... everyone can agree to this right?
This damages gameplay and design because it makes a substantial difference in the game.


Click-casting makes healing easier, yes
This damages gameplay and design, no

Quote:
Also Known as: The Camel's Nose.
Description of Slippery Slope

The Slippery Slope is a fallacy in which a person asserts that some event must inevitably follow from another without any argument for the inevitability of the event in question. In most cases, there are a series of steps or gradations between one event and the one in question and no reason is given as to why the intervening steps or gradations will simply be bypassed. This "argument" has the following form:

Event X has occurred (or will or might occur).
Therefore event Y will inevitably happen.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because there is no reason to believe that one event must inevitably follow from another without an argument for such a claim. This is especially clear in cases in which there is a significant number of steps or gradations between one event and another.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

The result you're claiming here does not follow your reasoning.

You contend that click-casting, because it makes healing marginally easier, will cause damage to the overall gameplay and design of Rift.

In reality click-casting is not THAT much different from using mouseover macros, in fact you could even bind mouse button combinations to those mouseover macros under the present system and produce basically the same result.

I would submit that if this type of gameplay were going to cause damage, it would have happened by now.
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#57 Jun 08 2011 at 11:39 AM Rating: Default
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Your interface with your computer is on you. You have to set it up, learn it, master it, and execute it.

Your interface with the game, like how abilities are triggered, is part of the game.

Click casting changes how spells are triggered. It changes the game. Hardware changes how you interact with your computer, now this may affect your gaming, but its still arguably you interfacing with devices and not changing any game mechanics. You still have to bind keys, make macros, and learn the new system. Click-casting goes way further than this. It literally changes fundamental mechanics of the game.

In WoW things work because addons have been there for so long. The dungeons, raids, and events are designed with addons in mind.
But we're not in Azeroth.

Rift is about to introduce addons (well the ability to have them). If they allow to much for people to mess with, they will have to adjust content to reflect how easy the addons make the game. Healing is being done just fine in Rift right now, granted many casual players only do dungeons, Raids seem to be clearing content in a decent fashion. By introducing a click-casting addon, healers will preforming much better (well thats nice) but this affects everything. We are already starting to see the dieing off of people using support in t1s or t2 dungeons if the healer has decent gear, obviously healing is already pretty manageable. After the last dungeon I ran, i asked the healer if he wanted a healbot addon in rift, they said "no... healing is fun right now, healbot would make it boring." Granted you may not find it fun, but if you don't... should you really be a healer. Part of healing is the challenge, thats what makes it fun. (But i guess thats just my opinion)
#58 Jun 08 2011 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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Ravashack wrote:

Pretty sure Raolan a.k.a. the guy not arguing with you about addons is just indicating that controllers are different than gamepads. Your Razer Naga is essentially a mouse with gamepad functions. He's not saying it's inferior or trying to detract from your point, and before you reach out to bite me too, I'm not saying that either.


I'm pretty sure I was responding to a post, not "biting someone's head off". I apologize for upsetting you.

EDIT: And for the record - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamepad

Gamepad actually has, for time out of mind, referred to controllers that are used with consoles. I apologize again for upsetting anyone with my assumption that gamepad and controller were interchangeable terms. It was not my intention to hurt anyone's feelings in this thread - merely show that not all gamers are created equal and it would be poor judgment on the developers part to actively work at keeping people from being able to enjoy the product thoroughly.



Edited, Jun 8th 2011 6:11pm by Torrence
#59 Jun 09 2011 at 6:39 AM Rating: Good
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TheRocky wrote:
Your interface with your computer is on you. You have to set it up, learn it, master it, and execute it.

Your interface with the game, like how abilities are triggered, is part of the game.

Click casting changes how spells are triggered. It changes the game. Hardware changes how you interact with your computer, now this may affect your gaming, but its still arguably you interfacing with devices and not changing any game mechanics. You still have to bind keys, make macros, and learn the new system. Click-casting goes way further than this. It literally changes fundamental mechanics of the game.

In WoW things work because addons have been there for so long. The dungeons, raids, and events are designed with addons in mind.
But we're not in Azeroth.

Rift is about to introduce addons (well the ability to have them). If they allow to much for people to mess with, they will have to adjust content to reflect how easy the addons make the game. Healing is being done just fine in Rift right now, granted many casual players only do dungeons, Raids seem to be clearing content in a decent fashion. By introducing a click-casting addon, healers will preforming much better (well thats nice) but this affects everything. We are already starting to see the dieing off of people using support in t1s or t2 dungeons if the healer has decent gear, obviously healing is already pretty manageable. After the last dungeon I ran, i asked the healer if he wanted a healbot addon in rift, they said "no... healing is fun right now, healbot would make it boring." Granted you may not find it fun, but if you don't... should you really be a healer. Part of healing is the challenge, thats what makes it fun. (But i guess thats just my opinion)


So, basically, it's okay if someone with a lot of money goes out and buys a $100 gaming mouse, sets up mouse->keyboard->mouse-over macros, and uses that to emulate click-casting? But, it's not okay for someone that doesn't have $100 to spend on a mouse to get the same functionality from a free add-on? Is that the position you're actually trying to defend?
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#60 Jun 09 2011 at 9:15 AM Rating: Decent
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So, basically, it's okay if someone with a lot of money goes out and buys a $100 gaming mouse, sets up mouse->keyboard->mouse-over macros, and uses that to emulate click-casting? But, it's not okay for someone that doesn't have $100 to spend on a mouse to get the same functionality from a free add-on? Is that the position you're actually trying to defend?


yup... because if someone were to do what you are suggesting, they would be Remapping their right and left click buttons to trigger abilities... either through the software for the mouse or through the game. This would mean that their function of turning the camera, clicking on things... and moving (when both right and left are down) would have to be remapped.

In healbot, the click-casting interface is limited to the raid frames that go along with the addon. So essentially these individuals get to have their cake... and eat it too.
#61 Jun 09 2011 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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This is a wonderfully pointless argument.

Rocky isn't going to break down and admit that addons are ok and the various addon protagonists aren't going to suddenly decide they are ebil.

I think that there is a basic misapprehension about addons on both sides.

The anti argument seems fueled by some of the early addons that did oversimplify gameplay. If the addon is suggesting the response (I remember and old one that basically gave you a one-click for the "right" heal on whoever needed it. The old decursive which picked your targets for you etc. I don't think anyone is arguing that an addon should be playing the game for you in that way.

On the other hand the pro argument could do more to clarify that they are in favour of aids to playing rather than substitutes for it.

I used a variety of addons and never got on too well with the ones that tried to "help" my decision making. PallyPower was an example that I could never make do what I wanted. Which may of course say more about my abilities or intellect than about the addon.

What worries me more than the actual addons is the social effects they can have. And of course the aforementioned arms race with the devs having to divert effort from improving the game to countering unexpected effects of addons.
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#62 Jun 09 2011 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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What worries me more than the actual addons is the social effects they can have. And of course the aforementioned arms race with the devs having to divert effort from improving the game to countering unexpected effects of addons.


Yup this is what i fear the most, which is why i want them to limit the abilities of addons probably more heavily than needs be.
#63 Jun 09 2011 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Cobra101 wrote:
This is a wonderfully pointless argument.

Rocky isn't going to break down and admit that addons are ok and the various addon protagonists aren't going to suddenly decide they are ebil.

I think that there is a basic misapprehension about addons on both sides.

The anti argument seems fueled by some of the early addons that did oversimplify gameplay. If the addon is suggesting the response (I remember and old one that basically gave you a one-click for the "right" heal on whoever needed it. The old decursive which picked your targets for you etc. I don't think anyone is arguing that an addon should be playing the game for you in that way.

On the other hand the pro argument could do more to clarify that they are in favour of aids to playing rather than substitutes for it.

I used a variety of addons and never got on too well with the ones that tried to "help" my decision making. PallyPower was an example that I could never make do what I wanted. Which may of course say more about my abilities or intellect than about the addon.

What worries me more than the actual addons is the social effects they can have. And of course the aforementioned arms race with the devs having to divert effort from improving the game to countering unexpected effects of addons.


Yeah that's why I stopped responding, talking to a wall is only amusing for so long, eventually you're just executing Einstein's definition of insanity.

In response to your request though, since you seem less wallish.

Yes, the Vanilla versions of Decursive and HealBot were absurd and botty, and they were also broken by the devs pretty early on. The WotLK AVRe was also doing a little more than helping people through an encounter, and it was broken by the devs pretty quickly.

For the record, this is my raid UI from towards the end of WotLK (my guild's first Lich King kill)
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/9751/raiduiw.jpg

From this you can see the type of interface I like (that big black spot between Recount and my hotbars was Omen which isn't the most useful thing in the world to a healer).

Two of these addons "help" my decision making. Deus Vox Encounters by providing me with cooldown timers for boss abilities (something I *DO* need as a healer) and HealBot for displaying HP levels and debuffs.

Personally I don't consider stopwatches and real raid frames to be at all game-breaking

Oh and because this needs to be addressed:
Quote:
yup... because if someone were to do what you are suggesting, they would be Remapping their right and left click buttons to trigger abilities... either through the software for the mouse or through the game. This would mean that their function of turning the camera, clicking on things... and moving (when both right and left are down) would have to be remapped.

In healbot, the click-casting interface is limited to the raid frames that go along with the addon. So essentially these individuals get to have their cake... and eat it too.

Have you heard of the @mouseoverui macro function? In case you haven't, it works in a similar way to @mouseover but will only cast its associated spell if the mouse is over a UI element (such as a raid frame). This has the effect of leaving the basic functions of the mouse unharmed by mouseover click bindings. And even if that weren't there, you can just bind things to a mouse-button combination (shift-left click for instance) and leave the basic click functions untouched.
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#64 Jun 09 2011 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Two of these addons "help" my decision making. Deus Vox Encounters by providing me with cooldown timers for boss abilities (something I *DO* need as a healer) and HealBot for displaying HP levels and debuffs.


DVE is I assume a bit like DBM. We required that for raiding and it does provide a lot of help. It can sometimes stop people being stupid which is always a win. However it also seems to have the effect of cutting out the briefings. This is one of the social effects I was talking about. I'd agree that this is more a matter of leadership and so on but I always preferred to be told about an encounter than just told to follow the DBM prompts.

I don't think I used Healbot much since I never got into raid healing and had basically given up on group healing due to unpleasantness. Thus I think I am disqualified from talking about it. This may be a novel approach on an internet forum Smiley: smile
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#65 Jun 09 2011 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Cobra101 wrote:
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Two of these addons "help" my decision making. Deus Vox Encounters by providing me with cooldown timers for boss abilities (something I *DO* need as a healer) and HealBot for displaying HP levels and debuffs.


DVE is I assume a bit like DBM. We required that for raiding and it does provide a lot of help. It can sometimes stop people being stupid which is always a win. However it also seems to have the effect of cutting out the briefings. This is one of the social effects I was talking about. I'd agree that this is more a matter of leadership and so on but I always preferred to be told about an encounter than just told to follow the DBM prompts.

I don't think I used Healbot much since I never got into raid healing and had basically given up on group healing due to unpleasantness. Thus I think I am disqualified from talking about it. This may be a novel approach on an internet forum Smiley: smile


Yeah Deus Vox (always for some reason abbreviated as DXE... *shrug*) is a lot like DBM. It certainly never cut out any of our discussion time though. But counting down in my head when Val'kyrs are going to come and pick up our raid members in 15 seconds and Defile is going to happen in 13 seconds, and Soul Reaper is going to happen in 14 seconds...... yeah. I'm not keeping track of all that crap in my head while I'm busy dealing with Infest. That's why timers are good.

And before Rocky comes in with "Well then it became required for the encounter" NO. I could still do the encounter without DXE/DBM, it would just be a lot more work then it needs to be.
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#66 Jun 09 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
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The game already screams at you pretty well when bosses are about to roflpwn you... If you want an addon to do that more, fine with me.

The thing is in Rift... if you need DBM like addons, than you still probably need to be told about the boss fight, and you probably still need someone on vent to tell you not to stand in the fire. Frankly if someone needs DBM, I probably wouldnt want to raid with them

Edited, Jun 9th 2011 12:35pm by TheRocky
#67 Jun 09 2011 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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TheRocky wrote:

The thing is in Rift... if you need DBM like addons, than you still probably need to be told about the boss fight, and you probably still need someone on vent to tell you not to stand in the fire. Frankly if someone needs DBM, I probably wouldnt want to raid with them



Why would you assume that because someone needs a fight explained to them, it automatically makes them a bad player?


Quote:

yup... because if someone were to do what you are suggesting, they would be Remapping their right and left click buttons to trigger abilities... either through the software for the mouse or through the game. This would mean that their function of turning the camera, clicking on things... and moving (when both right and left are down) would have to be remapped.

In healbot, the click-casting interface is limited to the raid frames that go along with the addon. So essentially these individuals get to have their cake... and eat it too.


It does sound like you just want folks to artificially inflate the difficulty of playing the game.

It's not a case of eating their cake and having it too, it's a case of preferring to have a relaxing and fun gaming experience as opposed to purposely ignoring available tools for the sake of saying "but, but I do it the RIGHT way noob u use mods u sux gtfo my hard core raid".

I'd really like to see your interface - I wonder if you actually do practice what you preach or if you are like, an add-on addict or something.

Edited, Jun 9th 2011 2:32pm by Torrence
#68 Jun 09 2011 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Why would you assume that because someone needs a fight explained to them, it automatically makes them a bad player?


You misunderstood what I said... I said if you need DBM in Rift than you are a bad player.
I also said
Quote:
you probably still need someone on vent to tell you not to stand in the fire

If you have to be told not to stand in AoE more than once... then yes you are a bad player.

I was taught in WoW, and I teach any players in my guild, that if they are going to participate in content like Raids, where alot of people are participating in the same thing, you should take a few mins to do your homework. Most boss fights are explained on youtube in under 5mins... **** i organize world raids on bosses all the time, and while im getting players together and getting people there i watch the boss fight.
Most raiding guilds I worked with in WoW did expect you to have some idea of boss mechanics before you got there.

I feel it is reasonable to have some expectation that players come to a raid ready, or at least listening.

In Rift major boss mechanics are given text based warnings in the middle of your screen, kind of like DBM.

Quote:
It does sound like you just want folks to artificially inflate the difficulty of playing the game.


Considering Healbot isnt part of the game right now... there is no "artificial inflation" of difficulty. I don't expect players to try and heal on "hard" mode... I consider the UI, at least in Rift, to be part of the game play.

Quote:
I'd really like to see your interface - I wonder if you actually do practice what you preach or if you are like, an add-on addict or something.


So since healbot would only effect the cleric really, i'll show you my lvl 38 cleric healing set up. Most of my toons actually have really similar set ups.

[IMG]http://i55.tinypic.com/fw7fir.jpg[/IMG]

and my hardware

[IMG]http://i55.tinypic.com/35bbc6d.jpg[/IMG]

As you can see pretty standard except you might question the use of the - and = keys on the right hand side of the bar... this is where i place my most common spells and I make use of reprogramming my mouses mouse wheel's ability to click to the left and the right to trigger - and = respectively.
I heal every so often, but i've been lvling my other toons ahead of the cleric.

Quote:
It's not a case of eating their cake and having it too, it's a case of preferring to have a relaxing and fun gaming experience


Granted this is a pretty solid argument. Casual gaming is pretty popular. and Casual gamers tend to want a relaxing and fun gaming experience.
But i contest that at how easy the game's T1 and T2 dungeons already are, by introducing something that makes healing even easier, your taking away from part of the difficulty that makes the game fun.
In contrast, Raid Content is not designed to be relaxing. It is designed to test and strain raids. So while healbot may not affect casual gamers that only do dungeons, it will affect the raiding atmosphere greatly. It will make raid healing alot easier... and I'm sorry but this is a GAME designed for a wider audience than just casual gamers and some difficulties are expected. This isnt farmville, its not suppose to be easy and relaxing all the time. Some players only have fun by accomplishing something that is difficult.

WoW realized this in Cata, and went back to having fairly difficult raids because hardcore raiding guilds lost that since of achievement when they cleared crap in WotLK.

The fundamental difference in our arguments is the fact that I see the UI as part of game play, probably because I've never been a big addon user and since I've played plenty of games were addons dont exist.
You see the interface as obstacle, for w/e reason.

Neither of us will budge on our opinions because frankly you won't even try to see my side of the argument, and frankly I see your argument as wanting this game to basically become WoW with different (crazier) lore and content.

Edited, Jun 9th 2011 6:13pm by TheRocky
#69 Jun 09 2011 at 8:43 PM Rating: Decent
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TheRocky wrote:
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So, basically, it's okay if someone with a lot of money goes out and buys a $100 gaming mouse, sets up mouse->keyboard->mouse-over macros, and uses that to emulate click-casting? But, it's not okay for someone that doesn't have $100 to spend on a mouse to get the same functionality from a free add-on? Is that the position you're actually trying to defend?


yup... because if someone were to do what you are suggesting, they would be Remapping their right and left click buttons to trigger abilities... either through the software for the mouse or through the game. This would mean that their function of turning the camera, clicking on things... and moving (when both right and left are down) would have to be remapped.

In healbot, the click-casting interface is limited to the raid frames that go along with the addon. So essentially these individuals get to have their cake... and eat it too.


A Razer Naga has 12 buttons on a thumb pad, there's absolutely nothing that would have to be changed for the right and left mouse button. So with the mouse I linked, which you apparently didn't even look at, someone would "have their cake... and eat it too." Again, what was your reason for an expensive hardware solution being okay, but a free add-on solution not being kosher?
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#70 Jun 09 2011 at 9:11 PM Rating: Decent
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TheRocky wrote:
The fundamental difference in our arguments is the fact that I see the UI as part of game play, probably because I've never been a big addon user and since I've played plenty of games were addons dont exist.
You see the interface as obstacle, for w/e reason.

Neither of us will budge on our opinions because frankly you won't even try to see my side of the argument, and frankly I see your argument as wanting this game to basically become WoW with different (crazier) lore and content.

Edited, Jun 9th 2011 6:13pm by TheRocky


The condescending attitude you have towards the other side of the table isn't going to win you any converts. You think part of the learning curve and difficulty is learning to work with the UI as developed by the publisher. You think that any add-on that provides any level of sophistication to the way players interact with the game gives them an unfair advantage over other players and makes the game too easy.

As far as ease and difficulty of encounters go, I think the 'arms race' between add-on authors and encounter designers is a good thing. As the add-ons become more sophisticated, the encounter designers can add new degrees of complexity to fight mechanics. If (to take DBM as an example) a boss uses some powerful tank-crushing blow completely at random, the only defense is to keep the tank's health full or nearly full at all times. The blow has to be calibrated so that random bad luck doesn't result in tank deaths. If the move is used predictably, then the healers and tank can sync up mitigation CDs to avoid the blow, and an off-healer can help top-off the tank right before the attack comes.

Yes, this can be accomplished with in-game boss emotes and announcements, but if you look at WoW, the boss announcements have largely come after the boss mods to make them less necessary, moving from the chat panel to in some cases large raid-warning-style text.

For damage meters, their benefit can be seen in any boss that has an enrage timer. Without some form of enrage mechanic, a lot of fights can be completed with just a tank and healer (especially in Rift where Chloros have unlimited mana). By adding enrage mechanics, DPS characters have to perform at some level of proficiency or the group will fail; the burden of success no longer solely rests on the tank and healer. I think that is a good thing.

Good combat log parsers provide vastly more information than just a Damage/Second score, I'm just pointing out the benefits of the most commonly griped about part of it.
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#71 Jun 09 2011 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Funny story...

I guess some guy was messing around with the alpha API for addons. Seems like he was making something that reads buffs...or something. But as part of his testing he was getting four digit numerical values from somewhere and decided to have a little 'teehee' at the community's expense so he output the numbers with a text prefix referencing gearscore.

Then he posted a screenshot of it on RIFTUI.

AMG the rage...you could almost feel the whole planet buzzing with indignation.

(It took about three pages worth of posts in the thread on the official forums before someone pointed out that it wasn't a gearscore addon at all.)

<3 clever lulz.
#72 Jun 09 2011 at 9:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Funny story...

I guess some guy was messing around with the alpha API for addons. Seems like he was making something that reads buffs...or something. But as part of his testing he was getting four digit numerical values from somewhere and decided to have a little 'teehee' at the community's expense so he output the numbers with a text prefix referencing gearscore.

Then he posted a screenshot of it on RIFTUI.

AMG the rage...you could almost feel the whole planet buzzing with indignation.

(It took about three pages worth of posts in the thread on the official forums before someone pointed out that it wasn't a gearscore addon at all.)

<3 clever lulz.

Oh man, the rage in that thread was epic. Although, to be fair, I think the second or third post pointed out the OP was being trolled by the add-on author naming the add-on bbGear Score (buff bar Gear Score).
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#73 Jun 09 2011 at 10:36 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
A Razer Naga has 12 buttons on a thumb pad, there's absolutely nothing that would have to be changed for the right and left mouse button. So with the mouse I linked, which you apparently didn't even look at, someone would "have their cake... and eat it too." Again, what was your reason for an expensive hardware solution being okay, but a free add-on solution not being kosher?


Im not really sure how this is an argument against what i was saying. Click-casting is still not being done with the razor-naga... and its still just a moving your buttons from one place to another. My comment was basically countering the comment that you could get a razor naga and make click-casting possible, which you just stated isnt. (although other mouse devices have reprogram-able right and left click buttons) If anything... you kind of proved by point that click casting isnt possible on the razor naga without an ingame addon.

Quote:
The condescending attitude you have towards the other side of the table isn't going to win you any converts


My condescending tone is a result of the sheer attack i've been faced with from WoW to Rift converts that think that WoW like addons will make the game superior, when in reality it will just make it WoW with different lore and content. Their a plenty of people that see my side, while they may not waste the time on the forums cause their actually doing stuff in Rift with their time instead of complaining about the UI. IMO Trion shouldn't sell out and make the game a complete WoW emulator, cause in the end WoW people will probably return to WoW when blizz actually starts pumping out good content.

As far as the rest of that post goes... DBM isnt currently needed because the Rift warning are plain, apparent, and pretty big and occur with plenty of time for you to do something about it... **** i can usually still melee dps for 1 more gcd cycle and still get out of PbAOE abilites. I asked raiders today, how Raiding was, they said most boss fights can be explained in under 5mins and they usually encourage players to watch youtube videos when waiting for raids to start. Most of them felt that a DBM like addon was completely unnecessary at this point of the game.

As far as what works in WoW... it would be better to compare Rift to another MMO that lacks addons, or has few, than it would be to straight up compare it to one that has had mods for several years.
The "arms race" does mean content gets harder, but it gets harder in different ways... without addons content can be sufficiently difficult. With heavy addons content can be sufficently difficult... either way the content will be a challenge... its just a balancing act.

As far as the DMG meter comment... pretty sure this is a red haring... cause i've made no mention of my feelings on dps meters. There is already a parser in game... and i have 2 screens so i can always see mine... so i dont really have a complaint against an ingame one.
I'm guessing you just assumed I was against all addons... which means you probably didn't read my first few comments on this post.
#74 Jun 10 2011 at 12:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Their a plenty of people that see my side, while they may not waste the time on the forums cause their actually doing stuff in Rift with their time instead of complaining about the UI.


I'm afraid you lose it right there.

"I am the voice of the silent majority" is a very close second to Godwin's Law.

and

Quote:
I asked raiders today, how Raiding was, they said


You asked some raiders you know today. Unless of course "Raiders Today" is some forum I am unaware of to which all raiders except me belong Smiley: smile

Sad really. Smiley: oyvey

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#75 Jun 10 2011 at 1:07 AM Rating: Decent
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"I am the voice of the silent majority" is a very close second to Godwin's Law.


silent on here... very vocal on trion forums.

I was mearly remarking on the fact that I'm the only one on zam forums that seems to be at least some what anti full blown addons.
#76 Jun 10 2011 at 1:41 AM Rating: Decent
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TheRocky wrote:
Quote:
"I am the voice of the silent majority" is a very close second to Godwin's Law.


silent on here... very vocal on trion forums.

I was mearly remarking on the fact that I'm the only one on zam forums that seems to be at least some what anti full blown addons.


That's largely because the regulars around here have been playing MMOs long enough to know that you don't throw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak. Or, to approach it from a different angle, "Don't hate the game, hate the player."

It all boils down to an optional feature that you're free to partake of or not.
#77 Jun 10 2011 at 5:23 AM Rating: Decent
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TheRocky wrote:
Quote:
A Razer Naga has 12 buttons on a thumb pad, there's absolutely nothing that would have to be changed for the right and left mouse button. So with the mouse I linked, which you apparently didn't even look at, someone would "have their cake... and eat it too." Again, what was your reason for an expensive hardware solution being okay, but a free add-on solution not being kosher?


Im not really sure how this is an argument against what i was saying. Click-casting is still not being done with the razor-naga... and its still just a moving your buttons from one place to another. My comment was basically countering the comment that you could get a razor naga and make click-casting possible, which you just stated isnt. (although other mouse devices have reprogram-able right and left click buttons) If anything... you kind of proved by point that click casting isnt possible on the razor naga without an ingame addon.


I can maintain normal use of right and left click on a Naga while mapping the thumb keys to U-P, J-";", and M-"/". Then, I make some mouseover macros in-game, put them on bar 7, and keybind those macros to those keys. Voila, click-casting emulated with an expensive gaming mouse. I could even use a couple action bars grouped together so I can set up a 3x4 grid on-screen that mirrors where I have keys on the mouse to help watch CDs.

TheRocky wrote:
My condescending tone is a result of the sheer attack i've been faced with from WoW to Rift converts that think that WoW like addons will make the game superior, when in reality it will just make it WoW with different lore and content. Their a plenty of people that see my side, while they may not waste the time on the forums cause their actually doing stuff in Rift with their time instead of complaining about the UI. IMO Trion shouldn't sell out and make the game a complete WoW emulator, cause in the end WoW people will probably return to WoW when blizz actually starts pumping out good content.

As far as the rest of that post goes... DBM isnt currently needed because the Rift warning are plain, apparent, and pretty big and occur with plenty of time for you to do something about it... **** i can usually still melee dps for 1 more gcd cycle and still get out of PbAOE abilites. I asked raiders today, how Raiding was, they said most boss fights can be explained in under 5mins and they usually encourage players to watch youtube videos when waiting for raids to start. Most of them felt that a DBM like addon was completely unnecessary at this point of the game.

As far as what works in WoW... it would be better to compare Rift to another MMO that lacks addons, or has few, than it would be to straight up compare it to one that has had mods for several years.
The "arms race" does mean content gets harder, but it gets harder in different ways... without addons content can be sufficiently difficult. With heavy addons content can be sufficently difficult... either way the content will be a challenge... its just a balancing act.

As far as the DMG meter comment... pretty sure this is a red haring... cause i've made no mention of my feelings on dps meters. There is already a parser in game... and i have 2 screens so i can always see mine... so i dont really have a complaint against an ingame one.
I'm guessing you just assumed I was against all addons... which means you probably didn't read my first few comments on this post.


I didn't look at your UI because I think it's immaterial to being pro/anti-add-on. My point was about the general improvement of the game through the use of player-designed add-ons. Boss fights become more interesting when the players have more tools and more information at their disposal. Lore from Tankspot did an excellent video on the Daily Marmot about add-ons and encounter design. It was linked earlier in this thread, and it's at least a couple months old, but it's worth watching.
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#78 Jun 10 2011 at 5:34 AM Rating: Decent
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TheRocky wrote:
Quote:
"I am the voice of the silent majority" is a very close second to Godwin's Law.


silent on here... very vocal on trion forums.

I was mearly remarking on the fact that I'm the only one on zam forums that seems to be at least some what anti full blown addons.


Forum participation is always a very small cross-section of any gaming community. In my experience, people with something negative to say will go to the official forums to complain about it, or be directed there from fan-site forums (because odds are slim that anyone from Trion is reading each and every fan-site forum). I think it would be interesting to see a statistic on the number of WoW accounts (or Rift, or any MMO with official forums) grouped by forum activity. Even better if they could filter out realm/shard forum and guild recruitment forum posts.
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#79 Jun 10 2011 at 8:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Y'all also have forgotten the "don't really care at all" demographic.
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#80 Jun 10 2011 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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AstarintheDruid wrote:


I didn't look at your UI because I think it's immaterial to being pro/anti-add-on. My point was about the general improvement of the game through the use of player-designed add-ons. Boss fights become more interesting when the players have more tools and more information at their disposal.


I looked at his screen shots, but what I'm not really sure about is why he posted screen shots of his Rift Interface.

Rocky:

Of course there are no add ons in that - because there are no add ons yet available. So posting your Rift interface really doesn't vindicate you as a non-addon user. We won't ever know for sure whether or not you used Add ons in WoW - but I find it hard to believe that even you will refuse to use tools as they become available for Rift. It's just silly to purposely dumb down performance when it can be enhanced.

I do question whether you are a serious gamer or not, though. I have played mmos for many years and never once would I even think about doing a "serious" encounter with wireless peripherals. Logitech has good products - I actually use that same mouse on my laptop during work hours. But when the work is done and it's time to play, my wired Naga gets all the love.

Maybe just goofing off where it wouldn't matter if I had a mis-sync, but with that setup I really question whether you are as good as you claim to be. It doesn't look like you are a serious raider at all - just a guy who plays casually that doesn't want anyone else to have an edge.

Edited, Jun 10th 2011 11:36am by Torrence
#81 Jun 10 2011 at 10:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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TheRocky wrote:

[...]
The fundamental difference in our arguments is the fact that I see the UI as part of game play, probably because I've never been a big addon user and since I've played plenty of games were addons dont exist.
You see the interface as obstacle, for w/e reason.
[...]
Edited, Jun 9th 2011 6:13pm by TheRocky


This is all that you really needed to say, TheRocky, instead of having that long post.

Calthine wrote:
Y'all also have forgotten the "don't really care at all" demographic.

This.
#82 Jun 10 2011 at 11:07 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I do question whether you are a serious gamer or not, though. I have played mmos for many years and never once would I even think about doing a "serious" encounter with wireless peripherals. Logitech has good products - I actually use that same mouse on my laptop during work hours. But when the work is done and it's time to play, my wired Naga gets all the love.


What you didn't see was my two monitors, webcam, external hard drive, router, modem, my kindle and phone... and several other devices that all use wires. By using this wireless combo i save a USB port... and i [Rage face] HATE WIRES on my keyboard and mouse. Currently I only have 2 USB ports available for use, and both are used for flash drives and media devices commonly. But i do understand your concern, I keep fresh fully charged batteries on me at all times for both devices... and i keep my cellphone devices away from them during dungeons (occasionally interference can occur) I have never really had problems with mis syncs though. But i do play rift in a casual (ala i don't currently do guild raids) atmosphere, although I do play alot.

I would like to say that this type of attitude is exactly why i stoped raiding. While yes most guilds did't require addons or hardware in WoW... it was commonplace to run across other players that were like "OMG you use WIRELESS?!?!?!?!!? then you're not leet" or "OMG you dont use Healbot?!?!?!? than you're not leet"

And about my screen capture... my Rift one is the only one i have access to, but my WoW was pretty much identical with the use of xpearl, some bar mode so that blizz's fail/ugly bars were hidden, and a bag mod. In WoW i was a pretty serious druid raid healer and I performed fairly well without any modifications beyond cosmetic ones.

Quote:
Y'all also have forgotten the "don't really care at all" demographic.


This is my voting demographic IRL.




Edited, Jun 10th 2011 1:15pm by TheRocky

Edited, Jun 10th 2011 1:50pm by TheRocky
#83 Jun 10 2011 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Most people's problems with wireless mouse/keyboard are due to the fact that they can run out of batteries / become unresponsive unexpectedly and **** something up fierce if that's during a boss fight. At one point though I used a wireless mouse that didn't use batteries but instead sat on a charger when it needed to be charged and that works very well. Not sure about keyboard though.
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#84 Jun 10 2011 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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The keyboard doesn't run out of batteries for upwards of 6months.... and i switch out the batteries off both devices at the same time. The mouse has a light that comes one when there is about an hour or 2 left of battery life. The device that picks up their signal is less than 1 foot away from them and on the same surface and, as i said, i keep wireless devices away from my computer during dungeons or world raids. I have not had issues with these devices in the past 2 years that i've used them. I've trusted some very high value assets in EvE to these devices, and I was never let down.

Edited, Jun 10th 2011 5:56pm by TheRocky
#85 Jun 10 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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I used a wireless mouse and keyboard for a little while (about an hour actually... a whole hour)

The thing that got me was the delay. Every time I did something (hit a key.. move the mouse) there was something like a 0.03 second delay before the computer would respond. Now that doesn't sound like a lot but when you consider the normal delay for that level of input on a wired device is something like 0.001ms, a 0.03s (about 30ms) delay is HUGE.

Now that was years ago, and I assume the technology has advanced in the meantime, but I'll basically never trust it again for gaming.


Edited, Jun 10th 2011 5:10pm by Callinon
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#86 Jun 10 2011 at 5:23 PM Rating: Decent
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The wireless stigma of delay is long and has some basis in factual data from several years ago. Current keyboard pretty much report little to no lag over their wired counterparts when put in close proximity to their receiver, which actually makes since. If you think about it, unless the wired keyboard uses fiber optics, than in theory anything that transmit wirelessly should be faster, since light travels faster than electrons. Obviously this isnt all that goes into wireless devices and many devices report delays that are mostly due to bad hardware or crap software... most of the reviews on the combo set it go were pretty great,that and the Logitech symbol is pretty much why I decided to make the switch to this set up.... been loving it.
#87 Jun 10 2011 at 10:14 PM Rating: Decent
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The problem with delay and wired mice/keyboards died a long time ago. Several wireless devices are built with gaming in mind, eliminating any noticeable delay. Delays are usually caused by devices set to extreme powersaving mode, resulting in constantly having to wait for a "wake up" delay, a driver/software issue, or just crappy hardware.

Quote:
The thing that got me was the delay. Every time I did something (hit a key.. move the mouse) there was something like a 0.03 second delay before the computer would respond. Now that doesn't sound like a lot but when you consider the normal delay for that level of input on a wired device is something like 0.001ms, a 0.03s (about 30ms) delay is HUGE.


As far as the 30ms delay being an issue, bull. There is not a single game on the market where a 30ms delay would make or break a situation. If 30ms is a breaking point, you're blaming the problem on the wrong thing. I understand you were talking from a personal preference standpoint, but you're talking about a time roughly 1/7th of the average human response time.

Feel free to check for yourself, I bet you'd be surprised at how fast .030 seconds really is.

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php
#88 Jun 10 2011 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Raolan wrote:
The problem with delay and wired mice/keyboards died a long time ago. Several wireless devices are built with gaming in mind, eliminating any noticeable delay. Delays are usually caused by devices set to extreme powersaving mode, resulting in constantly having to wait for a "wake up" delay, a driver/software issue, or just crappy hardware.

Quote:
The thing that got me was the delay. Every time I did something (hit a key.. move the mouse) there was something like a 0.03 second delay before the computer would respond. Now that doesn't sound like a lot but when you consider the normal delay for that level of input on a wired device is something like 0.001ms, a 0.03s (about 30ms) delay is HUGE.


As far as the 30ms delay being an issue, bull. There is not a single game on the market where a 30ms delay would make or break a situation. If 30ms is a breaking point, you're blaming the problem on the wrong thing. I understand you were talking from a personal preference standpoint, but you're talking about a time roughly 1/7th of the average human response time.

Feel free to check for yourself, I bet you'd be surprised at how fast .030 seconds really is.

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php


As I said this was years ago, I would have been shocked if the technology hadn't advanced in all that time.

30ms is a guess based on years-old memory of something I did for an hour before I got fed up with it. Take the number as less than meaningful Smiley: smile
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#89 Jun 11 2011 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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TheRocky wrote:

I would like to say that this type of attitude is exactly why i stoped raiding. While yes most guilds did't require addons or hardware in WoW... it was commonplace to run across other players that were like "OMG you use WIRELESS?!?!?!?!!? then you're not leet" or "OMG you dont use Healbot?!?!?!? than you're not leet"


It has nothing to do with being "leet" - it's a simple fact that by using wireless peripherals you are introducing a whole world of potential problems and I can see how a serious raiding guild might reject you for:

A. Artificially inflating the difficulty of your gameplay by refusing to use tools that streamline the process
B. Consciously using pieces of equipment that aren't suitable for situations where response time is important.


Now, I know there are some arguments that wireless has improved by leaps and bounds - but when I was shopping for a new mouse I was shocked at the amount of reviews for things like the wireless Mamba and Naga from users saying that the wireless loses sync too often and they just use the wired anyway. I can't deal with the fuss and neither can serious raiding guilds. Why should they put up with your attitude of superiority?
#90 Jun 11 2011 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
TheRocky wrote:

I would like to say that this type of attitude is exactly why i stoped raiding. While yes most guilds did't require addons or hardware in WoW... it was commonplace to run across other players that were like "OMG you use WIRELESS?!?!?!?!!? then you're not leet" or "OMG you dont use Healbot?!?!?!? than you're not leet"


It has nothing to do with being "leet" - it's a simple fact that by using wireless peripherals you are introducing a whole world of potential problems and I can see how a serious raiding guild might reject you for:

A. Artificially inflating the difficulty of your gameplay by refusing to use tools that streamline the process
B. Consciously using pieces of equipment that aren't suitable for situations where response time is important.


Now, I know there are some arguments that wireless has improved by leaps and bounds - but when I was shopping for a new mouse I was shocked at the amount of reviews for things like the wireless Mamba and Naga from users saying that the wireless loses sync too often and they just use the wired anyway. I can't deal with the fuss and neither can serious raiding guilds. Why should they put up with your attitude of superiority?


So you're basing your experience off of hearsay with no actual first hand experience? I've been using a wireless mouse for several years and it's caused a problem a grand total of one time, which I can't even really blame on the mouse because it very well could have been that I bumped the DPI button by accident. It would be interesting to see how many people have run into a problem because their mouse cord got snagged on something vs. how many people have had a problem with the wireless aspect, assuming they set everything up properly.

But you're right. Rejecting someone because they use a specific piece of hardware or refuse to use a specific addon doesn't make them leet, it makes them an arrogant prick.
#91 Jun 11 2011 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:

So you're basing your experience off of hearsay with no actual first hand experience?


Well - one person saying something, I'll accept as hearsay. Two people is a coincidence. Three? Well now we are looking at a trend. More than that and I'd have to conclude that there must be some merit to the complaint.

Generally when enough people complain about something, there is an issue. Couple that with my personal experience with my wireless logitech and microsoft mice occasionally losing sync, and the choice was very clear.

I'm glad that you never had a problem with your mouse. As a healer, I just cannot take the chance. Some of us are dealing with enough handicaps as it is.
#92 Jun 11 2011 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:

But you're right. Rejecting someone because they use a specific piece of hardware or refuse to use a specific addon doesn't make them leet, it makes them an arrogant prick.


I've never even seen a discussion revolving around the use of cordless input devices. I've never seen a guild requirement page on any guild site that recommended against (much less prohibited) use of wireless input devices.

As far as the addons go, I think you're crossing a line when you label people in a negative way for requiring specific addons for things like raiding. That's their choice. Using DBM in WoW as an example, if a guild says that they require all of their raiders to have it installed and up to date, there's nothing arrogant about it. That's just what they require.

Nobody owes you a spot anywhere for anything. If you don't like what they require, you find another group.

In the following scenario, who looks like the bigger twit:

Guy A> Hey, I'd like to raid with your guild.
Guy B> Sure, but just so you know, we require that all of our raiders use DBM.
Guy A> ***** YOU! YOU'RE AN ARROGANT PRICK!
#93 Jun 11 2011 at 6:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
As far as the addons go, I think you're crossing a line when you label people in a negative way for requiring specific addons for things like raiding. That's their choice. Using DBM in WoW as an example, if a guild says that they require all of their raiders to have it installed and up to date, there's nothing arrogant about it. That's just what they require.


DBM really is a special case though... WoW's normal interface for such mechanics was terrible. And pretty much every guild required it for that reason
Conversely, if you ran across a guild that said: "If you want to do ________, you must download _______" or when talking in chat someone brings up addons or hardware and everyone is shocked and appalled that you don't use X,Y, or Z addons or have x,y or z hardware.
Then I'm guessing your general impression of them would be arrogant, elitist jerks.
#94 Jun 11 2011 at 7:26 PM Rating: Good
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TheRocky wrote:
Quote:
As far as the addons go, I think you're crossing a line when you label people in a negative way for requiring specific addons for things like raiding. That's their choice. Using DBM in WoW as an example, if a guild says that they require all of their raiders to have it installed and up to date, there's nothing arrogant about it. That's just what they require.


DBM really is a special case though... WoW's normal interface for such mechanics was terrible. And pretty much every guild required it for that reason
Conversely, if you ran across a guild that said: "If you want to do ________, you must download _______" or when talking in chat someone brings up addons or hardware and everyone is shocked and appalled that you don't use X,Y, or Z addons or have x,y or z hardware.
Then I'm guessing your general impression of them would be arrogant, elitist jerks.


DBM is not a special case. DBM is a prime example. And then you turn around and use that example (only with blank spaces instead of addon names) to try and prove a point? Really?

No guild is going to require people to download fluff addons. They're always going to have a reason behind requiring a particular addon for a particular purpose and again, if you don't like it you just don't join that guild. It doesn't make them arrogant, elitist jerks, and I challenge you to create an intelligent argument to the contrary.
#95 Jun 11 2011 at 7:50 PM Rating: Default
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look... DBM is the ONLY addon that really makes your case... DBM wasnt really part of the decision, so dont bring it up.
Which is why I said DBM is a special case... because WoW's interface was so fail. DBM was often times, the only way to clear things, which is why it was required by pretty much everyone.

You know **** well i was talking about stuff like healbot, vudu, decursive, and w/e.

AND

I wasn't talking about guilds requirements originally. I openly admit that most guilds require DBM for a very good and specific reason and usually didn't require anything else.

Quote:
I would like to say that this type of attitude is exactly why i stoped raiding. While yes most guilds did't require addons or hardware in WoW... it was commonplace to run across other players that were like "OMG you use WIRELESS?!?!?!?!!? then you're not leet" or "OMG you dont use Healbot?!?!?!? than you're not leet"


This is the attitude that we are drawing into question. For w/e reason, you don't seem to want to understand this... or you seem to think that this attitude is ok or comparable to players/guilds that used DBM.
#96 Jun 11 2011 at 8:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can only assume he's referring to a select few people, like Theo and Aeth on the WoW forums. Like in this thread. They both have pretty strong opinions about having a very spartan minimalist UI.

As for other add-ons besides DBM/BigWigs, there's decursive, especially for non-healers that wouldn't otherwise have their UI set to show debuffs. There's also requiring raid-frame or healing add-ons that show incoming heals, to reduce overhealing and more quickly spot people that need attention. DKP-tracking and viewing add-ons could also make the list. And those are just the ones that I can think of off the top of my head.
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#97 Jun 11 2011 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
Well - one person saying something, I'll accept as hearsay. Two people is a coincidence. Three? Well now we are looking at a trend. More than that and I'd have to conclude that there must be some merit to the complaint.

Generally when enough people complain about something, there is an issue. Couple that with my personal experience with my wireless logitech and microsoft mice occasionally losing sync, and the choice was very clear.

I'm glad that you never had a problem with your mouse. As a healer, I just cannot take the chance. Some of us are dealing with enough handicaps as it is.


So based on your argument, all those people who claim to never have had a problem would directly contradict those who have had a problem. So the problem can be a few things. Faulty hardware, which is a possibility, although if that many faulty units went out I think the company would be in trouble. A faulty setup, meaning outdated/improper drivers or software. Or a faulty operator, meaning cluttering the area with multiple wireless signals or too great a distance between the unit and receiver. And speaking as a tank, I'm well aware of the reliance placed on the tools being used.

Aurelius wrote:
As far as the addons go, I think you're crossing a line when you label people in a negative way for requiring specific addons for things like raiding. That's their choice. Using DBM in WoW as an example, if a guild says that they require all of their raiders to have it installed and up to date, there's nothing arrogant about it. That's just what they require.

Nobody owes you a spot anywhere for anything. If you don't like what they require, you find another group.


If an addon is required to do a specific job, then their is a serious issue somewhere, either in game design or player skill. If it's game design, then the game maker should address it, if it's a player issue, how about teaching them to overcome the situation instead of forcing them to rely on a crutch.

I can't determine a players level of skill by looking at them, the same way nobody can determine my level of skill by looking at me. Requiring a player to use an addon to compensate for a level of difficulty is a direct assumption of that players skill, which is an arrogant assumption, plain and simple.

Aurelius wrote:
In the following scenario, who looks like the bigger twit:

Guy A> Hey, I'd like to raid with your guild.
Guy B> Sure, but just so you know, we require that all of our raiders use DBM.
Guy A> ***** YOU! YOU'RE AN ARROGANT PRICK!


Let's adjust this and assume player A isn't an immature idiot.

Guy A> Hey, I'd like to raid with your guild.
Guy B> Sure, but just so you know, we require that all of our raiders use DBM.
Guy A> I have an older system that lags when I use addons. I've never had a problem raiding on this system though and haven't needed DBM in that past. Why is it required?
Guy B> (Care to fill in an answer that isn't a direct assumption of Guy A's skill?)

People have raided in games long before addons and were succesful, which would indicate addons are being used as a crutch in many situations.

And just to be clear, I'm not against addons in any way, I used a crapload of them in WOW. I am against people relying on them to the extent that they can't perform without them.

Edited, Jun 11th 2011 4:42pm by Raolan
#98 Jun 11 2011 at 8:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Stuff Raolan said


I like this guy.... seconded.
#99 Jun 11 2011 at 9:17 PM Rating: Good
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TheRocky wrote:
look... DBM is the ONLY addon that really makes your case... DBM wasnt really part of the decision, so dont bring it up.
Which is why I said DBM is a special case... because WoW's interface was so fail. DBM was often times, the only way to clear things, which is why it was required by pretty much everyone.

You know **** well i was talking about stuff like healbot, vudu, decursive, and w/e.


I've never come across a guild requirements page on a guild site anywhere that stipulated people use any of those addons. That's the issue with these arguments...they're all based on hypothetical situations that don't actually manifest themselves into the kinds of issues the nay-sayers warn of.

Quote:
AND

I wasn't talking about guilds requirements originally. I openly admit that most guilds require DBM for a very good and specific reason and usually didn't require anything else.

Quote:
I would like to say that this type of attitude is exactly why i stoped raiding. While yes most guilds did't require addons or hardware in WoW... it was commonplace to run across other players that were like "OMG you use WIRELESS?!?!?!?!!? then you're not leet" or "OMG you dont use Healbot?!?!?!? than you're not leet"


This is the attitude that we are drawing into question. For w/e reason, you don't seem to want to understand this... or you seem to think that this attitude is ok or comparable to players/guilds that used DBM.


OMG you stand in fire? You're not leet! OMG you can't do <x> DPS/HPS/TPS? You're not leet!

These attitudes have not a **** thing to do with addons. Addons don't cause those attitudes. Addons don't make those attitudes worse.

Your issue is with idiots, not addons. Try not to confuse the two.

Edited, Jun 11th 2011 8:17pm by Aurelius
#100 Jun 11 2011 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
If an addon is required to do a specific job, then their is a serious issue somewhere, either in game design or player skill. If it's game design, then the game maker should address it, if it's a player issue, how about teaching them to overcome the situation instead of forcing them to rely on a crutch.

I can't determine a players level of skill by looking at them, the same way nobody can determine my level of skill by looking at me. Requiring a player to use an addon to compensate for a level of difficulty is a direct assumption of that players skill, which is an arrogant assumption, plain and simple.


You've entirely missed the point of addons. No developer is going to be able to invest the time and resources to come up with the "best" setup for each and every player. So they allow the community the opportunity to take over and create their own addons to modify the user interface in ways that are more useful/effective/intuitive for the person writing the addon. They can then share that addon in the public domain and others who find their work to be more useful/effective/intuitive for their own needs can benefit from them.

How many healers in WoW used Grid? How many used Clique? How many used their own scripts in conjunction with a raid frames addon? Or even just stock hotbars and the stock raid frames?

Addons are about OPTIONS. That is ALL.

Don't be naive. No developer is ever going to be able to be all things to all people. And when it comes to something as benign as the user interface, "outsourcing" the UI development in modular form to the codemonkeys within the game's community itself is a brilliant solution. And if someone finds a clever way to create an addon that does more than a developer would like them to do, they break it. No harm, no foul.

Quote:
Aurelius wrote:
In the following scenario, who looks like the bigger twit:

Guy A> Hey, I'd like to raid with your guild.
Guy B> Sure, but just so you know, we require that all of our raiders use DBM.
Guy A> ***** YOU! YOU'RE AN ARROGANT PRICK!


Let's adjust this and assume player A isn't an immature idiot.

Guy A> Hey, I'd like to raid with your guild.
Guy B> Sure, but just so you know, we require that all of our raiders use DBM.
Guy A> I have an older system that lags when I use addons. I've never had a problem raiding on this system though and haven't needed DBM in that past. Why is it required?
Guy B> (Care to fill in an answer that isn't a direct assumption of Guy A's skill?)


If I'm an officer in a guild and some guy tells me that he can't/won't use a lightweight addon like DBM because their PC can't handle it, skill isn't a concern. Intelligence is.

Bad example.

Quote:
People have raided in games long before addons and were succesful, which would indicate addons are being used as a crutch in many situations.

And just to be clear, I'm not against addons in any way, I used a crapload of them in WOW. I am against people relying on them to the extent that they can't perform without them.


It doesn't matter what you're for or against. Addons are coming to Rift.

Edited, Jun 11th 2011 8:35pm by Aurelius
#101 Jun 11 2011 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Raolan wrote:
If an addon is required to do a specific job, then their is a serious issue somewhere, either in game design or player skill. If it's game design, then the game maker should address it, if it's a player issue, how about teaching them to overcome the situation instead of forcing them to rely on a crutch.

I can't determine a players level of skill by looking at them, the same way nobody can determine my level of skill by looking at me. Requiring a player to use an addon to compensate for a level of difficulty is a direct assumption of that players skill, which is an arrogant assumption, plain and simple.


You've entirely missed the point of addons. No developer is going to be able to invest the time and resources to come up with the "best" setup for each and every player. So they allow the community the opportunity to take over and create their own addons to modify the user interface in ways that are more useful/effective/intuitive for the person writing the addon. They can then share that addon in the public domain and others who find their work to be more useful/effective/intuitive for their own needs can benefit from them.

How many healers in WoW used Grid? How many used Clique? How many used their own scripts in conjunction with a raid frames addon? Or even just stock hotbars and the stock raid frames?

Addons are about OPTIONS. That is ALL.

Don't be naive. No developer is ever going to be able to be all things to all people. And when it comes to something as benign as the user interface, "outsourcing" the UI development in modular form to the codemonkeys within the game's community itself is a brilliant solution. And if someone finds a clever way to create an addon that does more than a developer would like them to do, they break it. No harm, no foul.


You know as well as I do that there's a difference between addons that reposition information and addons that tell you what to do, and you know exactly which category DBM falls into.

Nice try, but you know we're talking about two different things.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
In the following scenario, who looks like the bigger twit:

Guy A> Hey, I'd like to raid with your guild.
Guy B> Sure, but just so you know, we require that all of our raiders use DBM.
Guy A> ***** YOU! YOU'RE AN ARROGANT PRICK!


Let's adjust this and assume player A isn't an immature idiot.

Guy A> Hey, I'd like to raid with your guild.
Guy B> Sure, but just so you know, we require that all of our raiders use DBM.
Guy A> I have an older system that lags when I use addons. I've never had a problem raiding on this system though and haven't needed DBM in that past. Why is it required?
Guy B> (Care to fill in an answer that isn't a direct assumption of Guy A's skill?)


If I'm an officer in a guild and some guy tells me that he can't/won't use a lightweight addon like DBM because their PC can't handle it, skill isn't a concern. Intelligence is.

Bad example.


Lightweight? That's meant to be a joke right? DBM in a raid setting is one of the heaviest addons I've used. Care to explain how a lower end PC is any indication whatsoever of a players skill, or intelligence?

Maybe people don't want a huge flashing message across their screen telling them what to do and when. Maybe people actually enjoy the challenge of learning encounters and actually having to pay attention to what's going on.

All that info that goes into DBM has to come from somewhere. Guess that means somewhere along the lines people are running raids without DBM, so maybe it actually can be done. Whodathunkit.
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