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#102 Jun 12 2011 at 2:07 AM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:

You know as well as I do that there's a difference between addons that reposition information and addons that tell you what to do, and you know exactly which category DBM falls into.

Nice try, but you know we're talking about two different things.


All DBM ever does is parse the combat log in conjunction with timers. That's it. It's gathering information that is already available to players and reorganizing it. That's all addons do.

So no, there is no difference.

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Lightweight? That's meant to be a joke right? DBM in a raid setting is one of the heaviest addons I've used. Care to explain how a lower end PC is any indication whatsoever of a players skill, or intelligence?


DBM uses hardly any resources. It's also modular, meaning it only loads encounter scripts as needed. It's not a resource intensive addon, and people who insist that it is...well...it comes down to intelligence.

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Maybe people don't want a huge flashing message across their screen telling them what to do and when. Maybe people actually enjoy the challenge of learning encounters and actually having to pay attention to what's going on.

All that info that goes into DBM has to come from somewhere. Guess that means somewhere along the lines people are running raids without DBM, so maybe it actually can be done. Whodathunkit.


And if the same kind of addon were to make its way into Rift, you'd certainly be more than welcome to situate yourself with a guild that wouldn't require its use. What you can't do is label other guilds in a negative way if they were to require that kind of addon, because that would just be wrong (and more than a little juvenile.)
#103 Jun 12 2011 at 3:19 AM Rating: Decent
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You know as well as I do that there's a difference between addons that reposition information and addons that tell you what to do, and you know exactly which category DBM falls into.

Nice try, but you know we're talking about two different things.


All DBM ever does is parse the combat log in conjunction with timers. That's it. It's gathering information that is already available to players and reorganizing it. That's all addons do.

So no, there is no difference.


You're right. Addons like Quartz, Bartender, and Pitbull, which simply move and reskin information yet do no processing, are exactly the same as DBM which parses the combat log and runs timers based on last spell/ability cast and provides that information to the player in a manner that would require you to be completely inept to miss. I must have missed those RUN AWAY, MOVE IN, INTERRUPT NOW, STOP CASTING messages in the combat log. Must have missed the active countdown timer between casts and the casting sequence in the combat log as well. I mean even though that spell only has a 5 second cast and can't be interrupted, I'm sure Blizz wanted me to know about it 5 minutes ahead of time. They couldn't possibly expect me to react to as it comes up could they? That would just be way too hard.

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Lightweight? That's meant to be a joke right? DBM in a raid setting is one of the heaviest addons I've used. Care to explain how a lower end PC is any indication whatsoever of a players skill, or intelligence?


DBM uses hardly any resources. It's also modular, meaning it only loads encounter scripts as needed. It's not a resource intensive addon, and people who insist that it is...well...it comes down to intelligence.


Yea, DBM was so light it jumped to my top 5 heaviest usage addons every time I zoned into a dungeon, raid, or BG. Is it going to bog down a modern system, no, but the specific scenario that spawned this wasn't about a modern system.

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Maybe people don't want a huge flashing message across their screen telling them what to do and when. Maybe people actually enjoy the challenge of learning encounters and actually having to pay attention to what's going on.

All that info that goes into DBM has to come from somewhere. Guess that means somewhere along the lines people are running raids without DBM, so maybe it actually can be done. Whodathunkit.


And if the same kind of addon were to make its way into Rift, you'd certainly be more than welcome to situate yourself with a guild that wouldn't require its use. What you can't do is label other guilds in a negative way if they were to require that kind of addon, because that would just be wrong (and more than a little juvenile.)


If a guild wants to force people to use a specific addon, fine. I guess those people who actually prefer to learn the encounter instead of having an addon bark orders at them just have to suck it up.

I guess you still haven't realized that your entire argument contradicts itself. Why require something that doesn't provide an advantage or make things easier? And what is the assumption based off of that makes the person requiring the addon think the other player can't perform without it?

Edited, Jun 12th 2011 12:36am by Raolan
#104 Jun 12 2011 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
Let's adjust this and assume player A isn't an immature idiot.

Guy A> Hey, I'd like to raid with your guild.
Guy B> Sure, but just so you know, we require that all of our raiders use DBM.
Guy A> I have an older system that lags when I use addons. I've never had a problem raiding on this system though and haven't needed DBM in that past. Why is it required?
Guy B> (Care to fill in an answer that isn't a direct assumption of Guy A's skill?)

People have raided in games long before addons and were succesful, which would indicate addons are being used as a crutch in many situations.

And just to be clear, I'm not against addons in any way, I used a crapload of them in WOW. I am against people relying on them to the extent that they can't perform without them.

Edited, Jun 11th 2011 4:42pm by Raolan


"We agreed as officers/raid group leaders/a raid group that everyone would use add-on X, Y, and Z. I'm sorry, we're not making exceptions at this time."
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#105 Jun 12 2011 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Raolan wrote:
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Lightweight? That's meant to be a joke right? DBM in a raid setting is one of the heaviest addons I've used. Care to explain how a lower end PC is any indication whatsoever of a players skill, or intelligence?


DBM uses hardly any resources. It's also modular, meaning it only loads encounter scripts as needed. It's not a resource intensive addon, and people who insist that it is...well...it comes down to intelligence.


Yea, DBM was so light it jumped to my top 5 heaviest usage addons every time I zoned into a dungeon, raid, or BG. Is it going to bog down a modern system, no, but the specific scenario that spawned this wasn't about a modern system.


Top 5 is irrelevant, the Blizzard add-ons running in the background take up about 40 MB, and DBM with a raid pack loaded only takes 900 KB to 1.1 MB.
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#106 Jun 12 2011 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
You're right. Addons like Quartz, Bartender, and Pitbull, which simply move and reskin information yet do no processing, are exactly the same as DBM which parses the combat log and runs timers based on last spell/ability cast and provides that information to the player in a manner that would require you to be completely inept to miss. I must have missed those RUN AWAY, MOVE IN, INTERRUPT NOW, STOP CASTING messages in the combat log. Must have missed the active countdown timer between casts and the casting sequence in the combat log as well. I mean even though that spell only has a 5 second cast and can't be interrupted, I'm sure Blizz wanted me to know about it 5 minutes ahead of time. They couldn't possibly expect me to react to as it comes up could they? That would just be way too hard.


Ya, parsing a combat log is going to tie up a ton of system resources...if you're running WoW on a Pentium2.

Argue all you like. People who know know better. If a guild says the only addon they require is DBM yet you enter a raid and your PC can't keep up because DBM jumps into the top 5 most demanding addons, guess what? It's not DBM's fault. You're running at least 5 other addons. Strip out the fluff.

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If a guild wants to force people to use a specific addon, fine. I guess those people who actually prefer to learn the encounter instead of having an addon bark orders at them just have to suck it up.


There you go again, all up on the high horse. Why the compulsion to label people? There are two primary types of raiding guilds: competitive raiding guilds that will use DBM for that little extra edge, and casual raiding guilds with lax entrance requirements the use DBM to offset some of the badism their members bring to the table. In there somewhere, if you sift and search and transfer around, you'll find a competitive guild filled top to bottom with quality players who won't require DBM. If you search long enough, you'll also find a female night elf dancing in her skivvies on a mailbox that is actually controlled by a smokin' hawt gamer chick who wants to fly to where you live and make your toes curl.

It's not enough that you dislike it, but again...you cross that line where you try to prop up your argument with insinuations that people who use it are somehow less than you. Stop it.

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I guess you still haven't realized that your entire argument contradicts itself. Why require something that doesn't provide an advantage or make things easier? And what is the assumption based off of that makes the person requiring the addon think the other player can't perform without it?


You're starting to get silly. I've never claimed that DBM doesn't offer an advantage. I've said that it doesn't do anything differently than any other addon. It gathers information, reformats it, and displays it in a way that is more useful to many people than what the stock UI offers. Knowledge is power. Get some.
#107 Jun 12 2011 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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AstarintheDruid wrote:
Raolan wrote:
Let's adjust this and assume player A isn't an immature idiot.

Guy A> Hey, I'd like to raid with your guild.
Guy B> Sure, but just so you know, we require that all of our raiders use DBM.
Guy A> I have an older system that lags when I use addons. I've never had a problem raiding on this system though and haven't needed DBM in that past. Why is it required?
Guy B> (Care to fill in an answer that isn't a direct assumption of Guy A's skill?)

People have raided in games long before addons and were succesful, which would indicate addons are being used as a crutch in many situations.

And just to be clear, I'm not against addons in any way, I used a crapload of them in WOW. I am against people relying on them to the extent that they can't perform without them.

Edited, Jun 11th 2011 4:42pm by Raolan


"We agreed as officers/raid group leaders/a raid group that everyone would use add-on X, Y, and Z. I'm sorry, we're not making exceptions at this time."


And that decision was made based on what?

Quote:
Top 5 is irrelevant, the Blizzard add-ons running in the background take up about 40 MB, and DBM with a raid pack loaded only takes 900 KB to 1.1 MB.


I don't know it's exact usage other than it spikes when a module is loaded, it's not a problem I've personally had so I haven't had to monitor exact usage. However I have run with people who don't use addons because of system lag and I think it's ridiculous to shun someone because of it.

Aurelius wrote:
Raolan wrote:
If a guild wants to force people to use a specific addon, fine. I guess those people who actually prefer to learn the encounter instead of having an addon bark orders at them just have to suck it up.


There you go again, all up on the high horse. Why the compulsion to label people? There are two primary types of raiding guilds: competitive raiding guilds that will use DBM for that little extra edge, and casual raiding guilds with lax entrance requirements the use DBM to offset some of the badism their members bring to the table. In there somewhere, if you sift and search and transfer around, you'll find a competitive guild filled top to bottom with quality players who won't require DBM. If you search long enough, you'll also find a female night elf dancing in her skivvies on a mailbox that is actually controlled by a smokin' hawt gamer chick who wants to fly to where you live and make your toes curl.

It's not enough that you dislike it, but again...you cross that line where you try to prop up your argument with insinuations that people who use it are somehow less than you. Stop it.


People play for different reasons, some of which play specifically for the challenge. If another player/group is demanding those players use a tool that removes a portion of what those people find fun then I have a problem with it. If that's me sitting on a high horse, than I'll keep my happy *** up here.

My issue isn't with the use of DBM, it's with the blanket policy of requiring people to use it without any evaluation as to whether or not they actually need it. If the person can't seem to move as needed and you want them to use it, fine, but demanding it before that point is reached is ridiculous.

Aurelius wrote:
You're starting to get silly. I've never claimed that DBM doesn't offer an advantage. I've said that it doesn't do anything differently than any other addon. It gathers information, reformats it, and displays it in a way that is more useful to many people than what the stock UI offers. Knowledge is power. Get some.


I guess you missed my previous argument.

Raolan wrote:
You're right. Addons like Quartz, Bartender, and Pitbull, which simply move and reskin information yet do no processing, are exactly the same as DBM which parses the combat log and runs timers based on last spell/ability cast and provides that information to the player in a manner that would require you to be completely inept to miss. I must have missed those RUN AWAY, MOVE IN, INTERRUPT NOW, STOP CASTING messages in the combat log. Must have missed the active countdown timer between casts and the casting sequence in the combat log as well.


If DBM simply flashed the screen as a spell is being cast or monitored multiple mobs health bars, I might agree with you. The problem is that it goes way beyond that. If raider A couldn't take the time to find out what s/he needs to do beforehand, they shouldn't have an addon telling them.

Other addons reskin/move/restructure information to fit a players personal preference, DBM goes beyond that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxMg7wBqJLQ

The comment at :22 sums it up nicely.
#108 Jun 12 2011 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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For the record, DBM with all Cataclysm modules loaded, takes up a whopping 2.8 MB of memory.
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#109 Jun 12 2011 at 8:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Raolan wrote:
People play for different reasons, some of which play specifically for the challenge. If another player/group is demanding those players use a tool that removes a portion of what those people find fun then I have a problem with it. If that's me sitting on a high horse, than I'll keep my happy *** up here.

My issue isn't with the use of DBM, it's with the blanket policy of requiring people to use it without any evaluation as to whether or not they actually need it. If the person can't seem to move as needed and you want them to use it, fine, but demanding it before that point is reached is ridiculous.


Interesting how easily people shift everything into the leadership's lap. Officers should know what this person is doing and whether or not they should have to use it or not. Hey, here's a thought for you: maybe it's just plain easier for officers...who typically already have a lot of mundane administrative details to attend to in the first place...to just make it a blanket requirement. It beats the **** out of singling someone out and telling them that they have to use DBM but Bob, Harry, and Joe are all exempt because they're better players.

Quote:
If DBM simply flashed the screen as a spell is being cast or monitored multiple mobs health bars, I might agree with you. The problem is that it goes way beyond that. If raider A couldn't take the time to find out what s/he needs to do beforehand, they shouldn't have an addon telling them.

Other addons reskin/move/restructure information to fit a players personal preference, DBM goes beyond that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxMg7wBqJLQ

The comment at :22 sums it up nicely.


Adding timers is about the only other thing that DBM does. It displays timers and creates alerts. That's it. It doesn't tell you to move. It doesn't tell you where to move. It doesn't tell you how to respond to what the abilities on the timers are going to do. It just shows the timers so that players can better anticipate what is about to happen.

Information. That's all it provides, and in a very limited form compared to what a lot of people seem to think.
#110 Jun 13 2011 at 1:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Adding timers is about the only other thing that DBM does. It displays timers and creates alerts. That's it. It doesn't tell you to move.


I do seem to remember it telling me the range to the nearest player in the maiden fight but that was long ago and besides the wench is dead.
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#111 Jun 13 2011 at 6:09 AM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
AstarintheDruid wrote:
Raolan wrote:
Let's adjust this and assume player A isn't an immature idiot.

Guy A> Hey, I'd like to raid with your guild.
Guy B> Sure, but just so you know, we require that all of our raiders use DBM.
Guy A> I have an older system that lags when I use addons. I've never had a problem raiding on this system though and haven't needed DBM in that past. Why is it required?
Guy B> (Care to fill in an answer that isn't a direct assumption of Guy A's skill?)

People have raided in games long before addons and were succesful, which would indicate addons are being used as a crutch in many situations.

And just to be clear, I'm not against addons in any way, I used a crapload of them in WOW. I am against people relying on them to the extent that they can't perform without them.

Edited, Jun 11th 2011 4:42pm by Raolan


"We agreed as officers/raid group leaders/a raid group that everyone would use add-on X, Y, and Z. I'm sorry, we're not making exceptions at this time."


And that decision was made based on what?


The benefits of having everyone use add-on X out-weighted any potential problems.

We made the decision on a Wednesday, and everything on Wednesdays is decided by /random.

This add-on was written by one of our raiders, and we want his add-on to have more hits on curse.com.


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Top 5 is irrelevant, the Blizzard add-ons running in the background take up about 40 MB, and DBM with a raid pack loaded only takes 900 KB to 1.1 MB.


I don't know it's exact usage other than it spikes when a module is loaded, it's not a problem I've personally had so I haven't had to monitor exact usage. However I have run with people who don't use addons because of system lag and I think it's ridiculous to shun someone because of it.


It spikes when a module loads because the modules are the bulk of the add-on. Outside of a raid/instance, there are a couple menus and test timers so you can move things around when you aren't in a fight.
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#112 Jun 23 2011 at 8:25 PM Rating: Default
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Disclaimer new to rift.
BUT:
Having skimmed through this long gorgouse thread with somepeople bashing addons and others requesting them. I will speak from my WoW experience (handly enough some people here are wow converts):
In the case of blizzard anyway: EVERY addon that went overboard was broken just as quickly as blizzard could write code and those bads that relide on those addons were warned point blank that if they rework them they'll get a perma ban. period.
Trion has the luxery of learning form this policy.
Addons I have used that removed epic fail from WoWs UI:
Vudo: yes I have gone without and let met me tell you point blank: it sucked. I even Raided with out it once as it was patch day and all kinds of **** broke. It sucked. let me see if I can get the details right:
click-HOPE i'm reading the healthbar properly- button- look on screen to see if i'm about to get it with bad
repeat. The guild and I quote "managed to gimp through ICC"
Had one person in the school of paranoid: zomg addons bad tell me what to do.. TRY tanking LK without addons same for Marigar.. I say TRY because it was beyond amazong how that cocky sob could wipe on a gear check.
Top addons that I'd die to see having only gotten a very small amount of rift time in and questions as to why they aren't in and or part of the UI at some neer future:
Threat meter I know it's "doable" but I don't have ANY way to know if the mobs that decided to say hello were targeting my squishy *** mage calling because of: how rift works. tank. or if for some strange reason my "heals" got agro. no clue at all. Why gasp there's...ok I HOPE there's a setting or future note: hey ya know a indication if i'm bout to get me some mob loving- I fail to understand why with WoW to learn from this isn't included.
Frankly it's a turn off to trying out a tanky calling if I don't have any way to gage how well my threat mechanics work. this begs the question: How many wipes could have been avoided by knowing: oh that bad guy over there doesn't have my undicided atention let me smack it again.
ark inventory OR just making my modest sized "bags" one nice lovely organizable inventory.

I know this game is new and still has some maturing to do, and with luck and learning what sucked(or sucks) about WoW I suspect that the epeens can be kept out.

Questing mods not needed per say and I'm a nuby.

That being said: The one sided argument that addons 'play the game for you' is what's the word felacius/false/bad/mistaken? The rift UI isn't to bad. and it's nifty that there seems to be some custamizablity to it. Cool- however I can see how it could stand some improvements: the raid frame:how on earth do people mouse over such a small area and expect to heal, I'm assuming that cleric souls have a direct heal option and not go bat *** crazy? I don't know it seems clutered a bit. Then my healing experience comes from WoW with a raiding hpala- I'm guessing that green bars need to stay up in some fation. And wouldn't it be nice if the UI were tweeked to permit mouse clicking where I can see wtf to avoid or how ever later dungeons work? Maybe that could be sugested where apropiat.

as I said in another post though this thread didn't catch my atention: How on earth do people not go bat crazy without some basic tools 'that other' mmo has? oO
#113 Jul 08 2011 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
there's a segment of players on their forums that argue against them because to those users, "addons" is synonymous with "things that play the game for you".


Yes, but those people may be safely ignored.

Trion has stated from day one that they want an addon API but, as you said, they want to do it right and provide the quality support it deserves so it just wouldn't be ready at launch.

My wishlist for addons (and depending on how their API and language works, I may do some of these myself):
- Bags, dear god bags
- Mail opening and calculation
- Unit frames (I actually WOULD like a click interface with these, I loved HealBot and would like to have it back please)
- Actionbar shaping. I can kind of finagle them to the way I want (or something close) now but there are still things about them I'd like to configure and make them better
- Game window resolution manipulation. Back in WoW I had an addon that put the game in a letterbox (those black lines you see at the top and bottom of your screen when you watch a widescreen movie on a 20+ year old TV) that would allow me to place game elements in the black space instead of taking up game window space with them, thus increasing visible space.
- Outfitter or something similar. I realize Rift can do this already but it doesn't do it very well
#114 Jul 08 2011 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
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(I actually WOULD like a click interface with these, I loved HealBot and would like to have it back please)
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(I actually WOULD like a click interface with these, I loved HealBot and would like to have it back please)
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try this for healbot: On action bar(I use the vertical one) place your healing spells macro them "cast @mouseover spell".

Keybind them Say.. alt+mouse4, ctrl+mouse4, alt+mouse5, ctrl+mouse5 etc etc etc...

Then in a dungeon place the cursor over the raid frames and alt click or ctrl click away to your hearts content.

Even do a Edit layout and change the raid and group stacks where they would be easier and faster for you to click. Even make them bigger or smaller.

And you are actually clicking a macro (not a single spell per left click/right click)so.. As long as the 1st "alt" + "click" has a condition and/or a CD you're good to go.

Its not HEalium but its pretty close to Healbot.

Edited, Jul 8th 2011 7:20pm by Iolakane
#115 Jul 08 2011 at 6:35 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I did consider a setup like that, but decided I was risking overriding non-redundant UI functions by futzing with my mouse bindings in that way
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