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MAJOR UPDATE TO RIFT - game changingFollow

#1 Jun 15 2011 at 11:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Put simple: Nerfs that only affect pvp and not pve. I HEAVILY support this.

http://forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?209117-New-Mage-changes-coming-soon&p=2620740#post2620740

Pyromancer

Increased the Burning Bright bonus to Fire damage to 0.4/0.8/1.2% for each point spent in the Pyromancer soul for PVE damage, PVP damage still uses the previous 0.2/0.4/0.6% bonus.
The damage of Fulminate and Cinder Burst has been reduced by 20% in PVP.
Inferno now triggers a global cooldown when it is cast, and the damage has been reduced by 10% in PvP.

Edit:

The PvP damage kicks in whenever your target is a player or player pet. Will affect both open world and Warfront combat.

Christopher Junior
Senior Systems Designer
Trion Worlds, Inc



Edited, Jun 16th 2011 1:22am by Puremallace
#2 Jun 16 2011 at 5:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Blizzard was always really really afraid of going this route - anyone know why? Are there long term implications to having different damage (or healing) numbers for player and NPC targets, as far as the developers are concerned? Does it just make the code too complicated eventually or something?

Otherwise it seems like two sets of numbers resolves a lot of balancing headaches.
#3 Jun 16 2011 at 8:29 AM Rating: Decent
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teacake wrote:
Blizzard was always really really afraid of going this route - anyone know why? Are there long term implications to having different damage (or healing) numbers for player and NPC targets, as far as the developers are concerned? Does it just make the code too complicated eventually or something?

Otherwise it seems like two sets of numbers resolves a lot of balancing headaches.


When I asked..trust me I asked I was told it was not technologically possible and it basically was too hard to do. Well apparently not.

As far it has been explained to me Guild Wars and EQ2 have been doing this. The implications are just beyond insane. In my view pretty much 100% of my pyro qq just got thrown out the door. I do not mind them hitting hard as glass cannons, but 6-7k Fulminates + Red ball of death is ridiculous.

No pyro should be ******** about this one after how many subs one class cost this game. I wanted them to take that class out back with a rubber hose and beat it silly, but pvp only changes is perfect in my view.
#4 Jun 16 2011 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
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I can imagine the tooltip would be a bit of a ************ Maybe if this catches on across all classes they could have a "PvE" ability book and a "PvP" ability book.
#5 Jun 16 2011 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Puremallace wrote:
teacake wrote:
Blizzard was always really really afraid of going this route - anyone know why? Are there long term implications to having different damage (or healing) numbers for player and NPC targets, as far as the developers are concerned? Does it just make the code too complicated eventually or something?

Otherwise it seems like two sets of numbers resolves a lot of balancing headaches.


When I asked..trust me I asked I was told it was not technologically possible and it basically was too hard to do. Well apparently not.

As far it has been explained to me Guild Wars and EQ2 have been doing this. The implications are just beyond insane. In my view pretty much 100% of my pyro qq just got thrown out the door. I do not mind them hitting hard as glass cannons, but 6-7k Fulminates + Red ball of death is ridiculous.

No pyro should be ******** about this one after how many subs one class cost this game. I wanted them to take that class out back with a rubber hose and beat it silly, but pvp only changes is perfect in my view.


You have to keep in mind that WoW is essentially "old technology" here...it IS highly possible that the way it is coded does prevent it from actually being able to assign different values to PvE and PvP since it wasn't designed with that in mind. Just another nail in the coffin is all it is.
#6 Jun 16 2011 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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Ravashack wrote:


You have to keep in mind that WoW is essentially "old technology" here...it IS highly possible that the way it is coded does prevent it from actually being able to assign different values to PvE and PvP since it wasn't designed with that in mind. Just another nail in the coffin is all it is.


I think you hit on something. Even SWToR and GW2 will have this I think. It is starting to show its age now just like EQ did. There are so many applications of this system it would take a while to write them down.

Right now in my view I could care less if yo buff pyro damage now, since there pvp damage is controlled. You can nerf a cleric now and still make them raid viable. MM can have Eradicate put on a CD now and have it still viable for raiding.

Edited, Jun 16th 2011 2:06pm by Puremallace
#7 Jun 16 2011 at 12:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well - they are already doing a different set of checks due to resilience gear so I would tend to think it's more laziness than actual limitations. Still, this is a good direction for Trion to take the game in. I have long believed that the two should be completely separated. PvP is not PvE and the same tools don't apply.

This will end up better in the long run. People will still QQ because it's in their nature, but it will no longer be because something was too powerful on one side so both sides had to suffer.

PvP and PvE are two completely different games.
#8 Jun 16 2011 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Rift population comprised of new players to mmo's/WoW players and some former EQ guys it seems with WAR players. The WoW crowd is probably not getting how significant this really is because they never saw it before.

This literally means I can point at a OP ability like Fulminate in pvp nerf it and have it still be completely viable WHILE buffing you for pve.

They can now buff the ever loving crap out of any soul, but adjust it to not be abused in pvp. The hilarious part is mages are ******* They need to understand the reason Trion is so unbelievably careful with Mages is because they have cost them a crap ton of subs.

Now they can get buffs and not have it just abused horribly in pvp.

Edited, Jun 16th 2011 2:18pm by Puremallace
#9 Jun 16 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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KTurner wrote:
I can imagine the tooltip would be a bit of a cluster@#%^. Maybe if this catches on across all classes they could have a "PvE" ability book and a "PvP" ability book.

agreed, this is gonna be confusing with regards to tooltips; one solution i can think of is, instead of having a separate spell book for pvp, just have two separate tooltip windows pop up whenever you mouse over an ability:

--------------------------------------------
| PVE:
| causes X amount of damage
| to non-player targets.
--------------------------------------------
| PVP:
| causes Y amount of damage
| to player targets.
--------------------------------------------

Regardless, I totally support this decision; as a former WoW player, I know first hand just how frustrating it can be to have my PvE character get nerfed for PvP reasons, or vice versa.
#10 Jun 16 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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YAY! Maybe now the dev team's valiant-but-doomed attempts to placate those endlessly whiny PVP kiddies won't lead to classes getting their PVE performance gutted!

(can you tell I don't like PVP at all?)
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#11 Jun 16 2011 at 9:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, this is probably necessary.

For the record, the reason the WoW devs say the keep not doing this is because they don't want PvE and PvP to be drastically different games (to the point where you abilities aren't even sort of the same in the two environments). Personally, I've always felt that was an extreme viewpoint since all you really need to do is tweak some numbers and add something like:

 
if( IS_NPC(target) ) 
{ 
   pvpSpell( this.spellId, target ) 
} 


And just have pvpSpell execute the normal spell code with different numbers. Honestly, if WoW's technology can't do what MUDs were doing in the 90s, there are different problems.
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#12 Jun 16 2011 at 11:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Looks like the new post for changes seem to support the idea that Dps warriors will be heading to 51point builds in either champ, beast, or para... or maybe some rb build.
#13 Jun 17 2011 at 6:59 AM Rating: Decent
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TheRocky wrote:
Looks like the new post for changes seem to support the idea that Dps warriors will be heading to 51point builds in either champ, beast, or para... or maybe some rb build.


I guess that is where you have to go. Right now thanks to min/max'n and the reality of raiding we are forced into BM/Champ/Para to be viable. If they make it possible for this guy to be a champ..this guy to be a DW para..a BM if he wants to be that is cool with me.
#14 Jun 17 2011 at 9:35 AM Rating: Decent
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The devs had mentioned prior to launch that they had set up abilities in Rift so that they could have distinct behaviors in PvE and PvP. They've tried a lot of things and the last proposed change (another ramp up in the damage reduction from valor combined with the addition of a separate reduction in crit damage bonus from valor) was sort of their last ditch attempt to cut down the burst in PvP.

Judging from the last dev post I read on the issue, re-tuning abilities to have one set of parameters in PvE and one set for PvP is still going to be a very big job, even with the abilities already set up to accommodate such tuning.

The main issue is that PvE is typically about sustained dps, whereas PvP quite often comes down to burst. And in a lot of cases (pyro as an example), there's an overlap in which abilities they use to generate sustained dps and burst. You can't nerf one without nerfing the other. On the flip side of the coin, you've got builds like assassin where the mechanics that define my burst (namely stealth) are quite different from the ones that provide my sustained dps. So if you look at something like the proposed valor changes aimed at cutting down burst without nerfing abilities directly, it heavily penalizes those callings that are not just capable of burst, but rely on it for survivability.

So now they're tuning things for some separation and the proposed tweaks are quite minor to start, but I expect this to snowball. And I think that once they get into the swing of things, they'll be able to leverage the setup to actually make things a lot better. They'll be able to tune PvE performance one way, and then tune PvP performance another way so that PvPers aren't getting buffed through the roof on account of what's happening in Hammerknell and PvE guys aren't having their sustained dps slashed because of how easily their calling blows people up in warfronts.
#15 Jun 17 2011 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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In simple they avoided the trap of nerfing pvp causing FOTM builds on the pve side of the equation. That is years and years worth of frustration that has been avoided.
#16 Jun 17 2011 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Anyone see a bite-off-more-than-can-chew thing about to happen?

-balancing ALL souls for current pve content and pvp independently
-introducing the first major patch(including stuff like guild bank)
-introducing add on support
-balancing and QA for new raids
-keeping up with dynamic world event
-supporting a larger player base

This is almost like Obama trying to add new roads, get out of a war, reform health care, and fix schools and a busted real estate market all at the same time. All while in the biggest recession in 20 years. Eventually you run out of adequate resources and end up with half-assed results.

I'm optimistic, but sounds like a bumpy ride that we've done before. I've done the trial and error thing for 5 years in WoW.
#17 Jun 17 2011 at 11:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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tommyguns wrote:
Anyone see a bite-off-more-than-can-chew thing about to happen?

-balancing ALL souls for current pve content and pvp independently
-introducing the first major patch(including stuff like guild bank)
-introducing add on support
-balancing and QA for new raids
-keeping up with dynamic world event
-supporting a larger player base

This is almost like Obama trying to add new roads, get out of a war, reform health care, and fix schools and a busted real estate market all at the same time. All while in the biggest recession in 20 years. Eventually you run out of adequate resources and end up with half-assed results.

I'm optimistic, but sounds like a bumpy ride that we've done before. I've done the trial and error thing for 5 years in WoW.


Well, that's basically the only way they can do any kind of pvp balance without f'ing up pve. I'm just glad they didn't waffle on the decision for six years trying to make it work anyway.

Uh.. this is the third major patch (1.3... following 1.1 and 1.2).

Addon support isn't going in this patch, it's going in next patch.. the building blocks of the API are going in here.

There's been a new raid every major content patch (every month so far), I assume their QA team can handle it since they keep doing it.

Every major patch has also had a world event attached to it (though admittedly 1.2's was somewhat lackluster).

I see where you're going with this, but Trion's development schedule seems pretty stable, and as long as they can continue putting out quality content, there's no reason to doubt their ability. Remember, Rift's team is made up of MMO developers who individually have years of experience, these aren't stupid people and these aren't amateurs. I say trust them until they give you reason not to.
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#18 Jun 17 2011 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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tommyguns wrote:
Anyone see a bite-off-more-than-can-chew thing about to happen?

-balancing ALL souls for current pve content and pvp independently
-introducing the first major patch(including stuff like guild bank)
-introducing add on support
-balancing and QA for new raids
-keeping up with dynamic world event
-supporting a larger player base

This is almost like Obama trying to add new roads, get out of a war, reform health care, and fix schools and a busted real estate market all at the same time. All while in the biggest recession in 20 years. Eventually you run out of adequate resources and end up with half-assed results.

I'm optimistic, but sounds like a bumpy ride that we've done before. I've done the trial and error thing for 5 years in WoW.


Want to know why this is better??

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2346-Explanation-of-4.2-Balance-Changes

^ 7 YEARS LATER

/endthread

I'll take bumpy over being nerfed into the ground patch to patch because some Min/Max'r in pve or pvp found some exploit. Saboteurs got raped early in Rift for this exact reason. Pyros were about to get bent over a desk in pve and pvp this patch if they had not done this.

**** they managed to buff and nerf them in the same patch. I know WoW players who would give their left nut for that right there. You bring up good points, but the downside of not addressing it now is just an avalanche of issues later on.

Start now fresh when the game is just starting and get the pattern going now.





Edited, Jun 17th 2011 3:34pm by Puremallace
#19 Jun 17 2011 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Remember, Rift's team is made up of MMO developers who individually have years of experience, these aren't stupid people and these aren't amateurs. I say trust them until they give you reason not to.


this quote is probably my biggest worry. before launch many of the basics should have been sorted out, almost second nature to the devs. things like Diminishing Returns, Guild Bank, or LFG should not be afterthoughts or still in test phase...the last 15 yrs of MMOs should have given them enough what-not-to-do's.

i DO agree in the approach to hard-balance PvE and PvP separately. i just don't like the backtrack technique they seem to be applying to each aspect of the game. i won't be surprised to see them do something significant with the PvP Souls or with the Valor stat(which i hate) to compensate for something.

i play a Sin rogue in PvP atm and hate the fact that i can't readily tell who is affect by DR. should it be a gamble to open with a stun? i think DR is currently based on the player being attacked, which is all wrong. DR should always be based on the player attacking. any MMO player and especially dev should realize this. catch my drift?
#20 Jun 17 2011 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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lol they did do something drastic with Valor. It ended up with noone dying on the pts, but crits and damage was finally under control.

This is literally the only solution to keep from causing across the board nerfs to classes and just wrecking pve. I mean those two 20% nerfs in pvp that are required for 5k massive hits that pyros put out on full valor rank 6 players.

That would destroy the pyro soul in pve if it was not separated.
#21 Jun 17 2011 at 6:58 PM Rating: Good
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tommyguns wrote:
Quote:
Remember, Rift's team is made up of MMO developers who individually have years of experience, these aren't stupid people and these aren't amateurs. I say trust them until they give you reason not to.


this quote is probably my biggest worry. before launch many of the basics should have been sorted out, almost second nature to the devs. things like Diminishing Returns, Guild Bank, or LFG should not be afterthoughts or still in test phase...the last 15 yrs of MMOs should have given them enough what-not-to-do's.

i DO agree in the approach to hard-balance PvE and PvP separately. i just don't like the backtrack technique they seem to be applying to each aspect of the game. i won't be surprised to see them do something significant with the PvP Souls or with the Valor stat(which i hate) to compensate for something.

i play a Sin rogue in PvP atm and hate the fact that i can't readily tell who is affect by DR. should it be a gamble to open with a stun? i think DR is currently based on the player being attacked, which is all wrong. DR should always be based on the player attacking. any MMO player and especially dev should realize this. catch my drift?


Being permanently locked down by two or three people is not acceptable in a PvP setting, which is what the bolded would allow. Any mage with Dominator as a third soul could contribute to that very easily. In Warfronts that rely on single characters making it to goals, it would make playing them really tedious. Then there's AE Snares and Roots.

That's about as fun as being a rogue/warrior with no power/energy for the entire warfront.

A better solution would be if they included some way of being able to tell someone is under a DR for an effect, and which DR it is (or both).
#22 Jun 18 2011 at 6:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Being permanently locked down by two or three people is not acceptable in a PvP setting


why not? how many souls have fewer than 2 CC breaks? and how many of those breaks have lasting effects after the initial break? you're implying that after i break the first 2 CCs, i should be granted 20+ secs of immunity to CC from all other players. also note that this hidden immunity buff is invisible to players.



#23 Jun 18 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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tommyguns wrote:
Quote:
Being permanently locked down by two or three people is not acceptable in a PvP setting


why not? how many souls have fewer than 2 CC breaks? and how many of those breaks have lasting effects after the initial break? you're implying that after i break the first 2 CCs, i should be granted 20+ secs of immunity to CC from all other players. also note that this hidden immunity buff is invisible to players.


20+? I remember reading Diminishing Returns is 15 seconds from initial application? One mage with Transmogrify can lock you down for ~11 seconds with two applications, so if DR is based on the mage doing it rather than the target, two mages with Transmogrify is a guaranteed lockdown if you do not use any CC break (not movement only break) abilities. If you do use one, just adding another mage fixes that. You may not care as a DPS specced rogue, but healers will care a LOT about being permanently locked down.
#24 Jun 19 2011 at 8:24 AM Rating: Decent
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I was wrong with how DR works in some other games. It does seem to be attackee based in WoW. However the timer in WoW is 15s, Rift is:
"* In PvP, being hit with a crowd control effect starts a diminishing returns timer. (We are currently testing this value at 30 seconds.)".

Quote:
You may not care as a DPS specced rogue, but healers will care a LOT about being permanently locked down.

The funny thing is, in warfronts like Whitefall, I play the flag carrier as Riftstalker. I exploit the DR effect to outrun everyone with ease. I call my spec The Slippery *****.

I'm complaining about a broken mechanic from both points of view. But anyways, back to my main point: this is a mechanic that should have been designed(or copied) before launch. I don't play on the PTR so I shouldn't be testing anything. Give me a finished product and let me enjoy it pls.
#25 Jun 19 2011 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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tommyguns wrote:
I was wrong with how DR works in some other games. It does seem to be attackee based in WoW. However the timer in WoW is 15s, Rift is:
"* In PvP, being hit with a crowd control effect starts a diminishing returns timer. (We are currently testing this value at 30 seconds.)".

Quote:
You may not care as a DPS specced rogue, but healers will care a LOT about being permanently locked down.

The funny thing is, in warfronts like Whitefall, I play the flag carrier as Riftstalker. I exploit the DR effect to outrun everyone with ease. I call my spec The Slippery *****.

I'm complaining about a broken mechanic from both points of view. But anyways, back to my main point: this is a mechanic that should have been designed(or copied) before launch. I don't play on the PTR so I shouldn't be testing anything. Give me a finished product and let me enjoy it pls.


I doubt it was due to neglect.

My guess is they didn't want to put in a mechanic like that from day 1 before they saw how the system worked as it was. After that they can iterate on it, which is what they're doing.

I feel like asking for a "finished product" in an MMO is a mistake, an MMO is only "finished" when it dies, until then it's in a constant state of evolution (and in Rift's case.. this happens quite rapidly). At launch an MMO should work correctly. Everything in the game should function the way it's supposed to, and then you use patches to tweak things and add content and fix things that didn't work the way you thought they would.
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#26 Jun 19 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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tommyguns wrote:
I was wrong with how DR works in some other games. It does seem to be attackee based in WoW. However the timer in WoW is 15s, Rift is:
"* In PvP, being hit with a crowd control effect starts a diminishing returns timer. (We are currently testing this value at 30 seconds.)".

Quote:
You may not care as a DPS specced rogue, but healers will care a LOT about being permanently locked down.

The funny thing is, in warfronts like Whitefall, I play the flag carrier as Riftstalker. I exploit the DR effect to outrun everyone with ease. I call my spec The Slippery *****.

I'm complaining about a broken mechanic from both points of view. But anyways, back to my main point: this is a mechanic that should have been designed(or copied) before launch. I don't play on the PTR so I shouldn't be testing anything. Give me a finished product and let me enjoy it pls.


OK, great, make me look through patch notes. Better link where you are seeing that because I'm very positive that is outdated information about the timer.

In PvP, being hit with a crowd control effect starts a 24 second diminishing returns timer. If you are hit with a second effect from the same group (Movement or Control) during that time, the effect is reduced by 50%. You are then immune to additional effects from the same group until the initial timer has expired. -- 1.2 Patch notes.


Diminishing returns immunity timers now end 15 seconds after the initial application of movement-impairing effects, down from 24 seconds.
-- 1.2 Hotfix #7 notes.

So the 15 seconds I'm remembering is for movement only, otherwise it's 24 seconds for Control, which is actually the one I'm concerned about. Either way, you don't get 20+ seconds of immunity after it wears off. :P

I'm not seeing where Riftstalkers are getting extra ways to break out a complete lockdown ability like a stun or Transmogrify, which is the Control DR, on a separate timer, and what I was talking about as being the main problem with having the DR effect be based on the attacker. Either way:

The main point of your character when being a higher priority target is to get around, and you have the toys to make movement effects a joke. The nature of your spec puts you out of range of abilities most of the time, so you're not going to experience being locked down by a Control effect quite as much because you're not standing in range most of the time to let it land. If you are hit by one, Break Free gives you enough time to get out of range for one to not land again unless it's coming from someone specced a decent way in Dominator.

The main point of a healer is to heal; most healer abilities are going to require standing still and all of them are going to require the target to be in range, so if the target is not going anywhere, the healer's not either. That makes them significantly easier targets for control effects.

And I agree with what Callinon is speculating about regarding the mechanic. Trion is currently 50x faster (I mean, days/weeks versus months/years) at actually forming conclusions, making decisions and implementing changes than Blizzard is. Having this level of change in WoW would have taken months to roll out. :P
#27 Jun 19 2011 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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tommyguns wrote:
I was wrong with how DR works in some other games. It does seem to be attackee based in WoW. However the timer in WoW is 15s, Rift is:
"* In PvP, being hit with a crowd control effect starts a diminishing returns timer. (We are currently testing this value at 30 seconds.)".




Your information is out dated. It is 15 seconds in Rift.

Diminishing returns immunity timers now end 15 seconds after the initial application of movement-impairing effects, down from 24 seconds.

http://forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?196659-RIFT-1.2-Hotfix-7-8-00am-PDT-5-25-11-NA-2-00am-BST-26-5-11

Edited, Jun 19th 2011 2:40pm by Puremallace
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