While I *do* like the Valor change, I'm not much of a fan of the Vengeance one. (For the record, I'm not a fan of PvP-only stats, be they damage reduction or damage stats) I understand why they did it and I understand why it was necessary. The alternative--balancing the higher tiers by giving them more killing stats and less survival stats--is impossible to balance in any real-world scenario. That, and it would generate a LOT of QQ because high- and low-tier gear would have such similar stat values.
Do you know the only way to not be forced to introduce a vengeance stat to this game? Take raids off lock outs and nerf the bosses, but allow them to still drop the same gear.
Nerfing raids would reduce the fun of raiding. I don't raid at all atm, but I've done it before and it can be a lot of fun if the raids are hard.
EDIT: By hard I mean mechanically difficult, not 'hard until you outgear them'. A well-built encounter can still wipe people who significantly outgear it.
Ideally you would balance PvP first, then balance PvE around the amount of damage players can do with a given stat total. After that, you'd have the same gear available from both methods of acquisition.
The people you see on the forums are the biggest bunch of dim wits to ever play mmo's. I still took a 2.7k crit yesterday. I can still dish out major damage as a Warrior and lock down players and have fun.
I'm not disputing anything like that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not QQing. PvP right now is incredibly fun, and was still fun before the addition of Vengeance etc. The reason that I don't like Valor/Vengeance and PvP-only stats is purely aesthetic.
Only ones who took a hurting was Rogues, but they have to deal with it for what.....20 more days if that and then they will probably be OP and able to stun lock you to death because they are getting buffed in pvp.
Thus is the cycle of the MMORPG.
It is shocking the number of people who want a auto win gear in pvp, then it is more shocking to see these people say GW2 will be so much different...they realize that game is not decided by gear right?
That statement is actually enough to make me interested in GW2. One thing that I love about LoL/HoN/DotA/etc is that they pack fast and fun RPG gameplay into a box that causes the outcome of matches to depend entirely upon player skill.
Would most people still play WoW/Rift/<insert> if there were no gear? Probably not. Would I? Yes, because I enjoy the gameplay. Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 4:22pm by emallson