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New 461mb update on pts and...Follow

#1 Sep 16 2011 at 6:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Edit: ok other stuff...T1 synergy crystal are on the pts now..no tool tips, but there is a new vendor with a crapppppp ton of new gear that you earn from closing rifts and doing invasions/

Pretty major change is the warrior dex/ap/strength changes have been reverted.

So they dropped a 461mb patch and it had some new stuff. As always I will update as I find stuff

To start with see this thread for the Chronicle info.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNheYgsQ32U

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/7947/20110916170933.jpg

I am going to update as I find new stuff. There will be a video up shortly, but I need to run it first. This one is a solo player instance



ok so after all **** breaks loss and you get to the end guy you have to fight this dude. This guys name is Shadvarian and he is a DA BOSS

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/285/20110916172959.jpg



Vet rewards:

These seem to inclue new Vanity items, a new currency called Veterns Reward vendor token?!?!?, and a vetern reward cache...no idea what is in this. Also when I find the vendor there will be pics

This is the progression of it. So 1,3,6,12,18,24. It is only updated to 6 months.

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/1281/20110916174243.jpg

All the gear you get until 6 months. it ithe Sanctum guard gear

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/7283/20110916174305.jpg

Also they added a Tutorial to Planar Attunement Screen:

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/6366/planar.png

This new guide pops up and explains a lot about how it works

Edited, Sep 16th 2011 8:26pm by Puremallace
#2 Sep 16 2011 at 6:40 PM Rating: Good
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Any possibility of some larger versions of those vet rewards screenshots? Kind of hard to read Smiley: frown

Interesting stuff so far. The stat change reversion is something I don't personally agree with, though I suppose it could be ok if they go fix the stat weights and contribution coefficients, though that seems a lot harder to do than just making it so your calling's primary stat always flat out makes you better.
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#3 Sep 16 2011 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
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I spoke with Elrar on the pts and also.

Here is a golden rule of mmorpg's: You can do little changes and have people switch builds. Blizzard, Aion, EQ2 do it all the time. When it comes to changing core mechanics of classes that require complete re gearing YOU NEVER do that until a expansion with a level increase.

Yes, I agree the base stat change makes sense. The PROBLEM is that is require 90% of the warriors and clerics in the game to completely re gear. The way the gear is designed in this game can not accommodate this. Plate simply does not have the strength on it to make a warrior drool.

In a expansion we re gear anyways and you can introduce gear with itemization where this makes sense.



Source:http://forums.riftgame.com/public-test-shard/256127-feedback-changes-warrior-cleric-stat-calculations-18.html#post3143862

Quote:
So the reasoning is this:

Through our deeper delves into the data and seeing how these changes behave on PTS we decided it was not the right time to make changes of this magnitude to a live game.

Many details and factors had to be taken into account as we followed the ripple effects these changes would have. If we are ever to make changes of this kind we want to ensure we give ourselves the time and opportunity to do them properly.

That said, 1.5 is still on PTS for a few more weeks - and we encourage you to continue sharing your feedback, thanks all!

James "Elrar" Nichols
Community Manager
www.riftgame.com


Edited, Sep 16th 2011 8:53pm by Puremallace
#4 Sep 16 2011 at 7:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I honestly don't even understand all the hullaballoo about itemization as it stands on live. Specifically, I don't understand why people are so unhappy with it that they'd be willing to volunteer the community at large for a re-gear midway through an expansion cycle.

Warriors are fine. They're gearing with leather and dominating PvE performance in a number of dps categories.

Clerics are fine. They're gearing with (at least some) cloth. They're fine healing in raids and they're doing just fine in PvP.

I could see if both warriors and clerics were seen as bottom of the barrel in all categories compared to mages and rogues, but that's so far from the case it's not even worth considering. Rogues and mages are the ones who have been under-performing.

Sometimes people just need to stop whining and play the ******* game.
#5 Sep 16 2011 at 7:19 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
I honestly don't even understand all the hullaballoo about itemization as it stands on live. Specifically, I don't understand why people are so unhappy with it that they'd be willing to volunteer the community at large for a re-gear midway through an expansion cycle.

Warriors are fine. They're gearing with leather and dominating PvE performance in a number of dps categories.

Clerics are fine. They're gearing with (at least some) cloth. They're fine healing in raids and they're doing just fine in PvP.

I could see if both warriors and clerics were seen as bottom of the barrel in all categories compared to mages and rogues, but that's so far from the case it's not even worth considering. Rogues and mages are the ones who have been under-performing.

Sometimes people just need to stop whining and play the @#%^ing game.


The major issue is that warriors and clerics have to use leather and cloth respectively in order to get competitive performance to their rogue and mage counterparts in PvE currently. The crit-dependency that currently exists leads people to choose itemization that will increase crit (in this case that means you need DEX or INT) which plate and chain don't do as well as leather and cloth.

I do see Elrar's point though, the middle of a cycle is the not the best time to make that kind of change.
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#6 Sep 16 2011 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Here is the what happens and I really do get it. Strength was supposed to be that stat we wanted. It makes sense Warrior want attack to be their big stat and Rogue want crits with dex to be theirs.

The problem is warriors are getting so much more out of dex and ap simply does not compare in scaling. It is a core issue that has been in the game and for them to fix it they would of had to have delayed the game by months to re itemize literally every piece of gear in the game.

That is why this is done with a expansion. Right now as a warrior if I have to re gear with these changes life, death, water, earth essences are all for crit and not strength. The items to make this work are simply not easily available in the game.

The gear that would make this work is in Hammerknell and maybe 5% of the population has even been in there? I just wish top guild players who are advocating this change now would understand this.

So you guys understand this
Live:+
Ap: 527
Crit: 619

Same gear on pts
AP: 414
Crit: 869

Warriors as they are geared now are soooo heavily into dex it is just no reasonable. It just had to go.


Edited, Sep 16th 2011 9:26pm by Puremallace
#7 Sep 16 2011 at 11:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:

The major issue is that warriors and clerics have to use leather and cloth respectively in order to get competitive performance to their rogue and mage counterparts in PvE currently. The crit-dependency that currently exists leads people to choose itemization that will increase crit (in this case that means you need DEX or INT) which plate and chain don't do as well as leather and cloth.

I do see Elrar's point though, the middle of a cycle is the not the best time to make that kind of change.


I understand why warriors and clerics are wearing leather and cloth respectively. I just don't understand why it's such a big deal.

The two main issues I've been able to pick out:

1) Warriors are mad because they want to wear plate and clerics are mad because they want to wear chain, but because the stat weights + itemization make the respective step-down armor classes the preferred choice for performance, they feel compelled to wear armor they don't like.

Okay, yes. There's room for subjective preference. But at the same time, it's like branding the game a failure because there's too much blue on the gear, or the asymmetrical leather chest piece my Defiant rogue got from one of the first quest lines in Freemarch made her look like a peasant ***** (not even a high class one!) If I'm going to brand a game a failure, or get so worked up about an aspect of the game that all I can do is rage about it, I'm going to build my angst around something that actually matters in the grand scheme of things.

2) (Which ties into #1) is basically an itemization system that means plate and chain drops in some areas of content are largely trash drops the first time a group sees them, and competition for leather and cloth gear is higher than it "should" be.

I can appreciate this to an extent, but at the end of the day anyone who has ever done any amount of raiding in any MMO like Rift or WoW knows that getting the gear people want to drop is a crap shoot in of itself. I lost track of how many times I downed a raid boss with a guild group in WoW and we wound up D/Eing or vendoring all of the drops because nobody could use those specific drops despite the fact that there were plenty of people in the raid who could have used other gear in that boss' loot table.

It would be one thing if warriors were only allowed to wear plate and because of the itemization on that plate, they could never get the stats necessary for them to be viable. Same with clerics. But it's not. Everyone found ways to be viable, and particularly in the case of warriors their decision to focus on DEX/Crit over STR/AP caused them to actually perform above the intended level. People cry all the time that they need buffs because look at warriors and how much single target damage warriors do and amg buff meeeeeeeeeeeeeeee....

.....but they never stop to ask themselves what kinds of numbers warriors would be posting if they were running with the STR/AP gear afforded them by earlier tiers of raid gear.

Rogue damage scaling from AP is just as bad as warriors, but we don't actually have an alternative gear set that we can dip into to make up for it. Our base damage on attacks is lower than warriors in a lot of cases because our calling has been tuned from the ground up to function more on crit. So we hit for less on normal hits but we (theoretically) crit more than a warrior and it should all balance out in the end. But instead warriors start jacking up the crit through leather gear and hey...now they're hitting for slightly less than they would in plate gear because of how poorly AP scales but they crit way more often. Ergo "warriors are overpowered in raids so buff us to match!"

This whole thing stinks to me of a situation that was less than ideal (itemization and stat weighting) that the vocal minority (as the are prone to do with anything) blew out of proportion. And now in an attempt to fix a less than ideal (but still entirely functional) system, the devs have stirred up a hornet's nest of rage.

What a tragedy.
#8 Sep 17 2011 at 7:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, when you reduce the number of viable items on a loot table by 50% what you essentially do is vastly increase the number of classes competing with you for gear.

I raided in WoW too, and you pretty much had two scenarios when your thing dropped:
1: It's an armor piece, you have a max of 2 other classes possibly competing with you for it (except certain cloth and plate that's specifically for healers). In the case of hybrid casters, you have zero competition outside your own class.

2: It's an accessory, so it falls under one of four categories: str dps, agi dps, tanking, caster. Once again you have MAYBE 4 or 5 people in a 25 man raid who also want that piece.

Now let's see how that works in Rift.

1: Armor piece: Well if it's plate or chain, it's substandard out of the gate (except tanking pieces). If it's leather or cloth, you now have competition from every melee or every caster in the raid wanting that piece.

2: Accessory: Same deal, we break these down into three categories: melee, caster, tank. Unless you're a tank, you have to conservatively compete against half the raid for your gear every time anything drops.

This can make gearing up very frustrating and it annoys the **** out of mages and rogues (and it should) because, as you said, they don't have an alternative gearing option that nobody else can use.

It absolutely IS an itemization and stat weighting issue. Warriors and clerics should be scaling better on AP and SP than they are (which would naturally push them to using the correct armor class). They are currently too crit-dependant. Warriors typically need crit to not be power starved, and clerics need it to be effective (see branches like Serendipity and Corporal Punishment). There are a few possible fixes for this, but none of them are simple and all of them require re-gearing people, which would suck for other reasons.
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#9 Sep 17 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
It absolutely IS an itemization and stat weighting issue. Warriors and clerics should be scaling better on AP and SP than they are (which would naturally push them to using the correct armor class). They are currently too crit-dependant. Warriors typically need crit to not be power starved, and clerics need it to be effective (see branches like Serendipity and Corporal Punishment). There are a few possible fixes for this, but none of them are simple and all of them require re-gearing people, which would suck for other reasons.


The thing is, warriors for sure (and some cleric hybrid builds as well) are only crit dependent because players have decided they're crit dependent. As I mentioned previously, warriors are overperforming in raids. It's a case of players translating "want" into "need". Warriors were more than likely not tuned with performance goals that included the stacking of crit, so when warriors start stacking crit they wind up doing more than was intended (and thus more than is required.) But in keeping with the min-maxer's credo of "If it's not the best, it's useless" all of a sudden warriors start telling Trion that their itemization sucks because they scale so much better with crit.

If Trion had launched the game with absolute restrictions on gear based on calling, nobody would have been the wiser. Warriors would have been using plate and making do with the stats afforded to them by plate and if they weren't tuned in such a way as to be viable, then it would fall upon Trion to adjust the calling to make them viable.

It's similar with clerics and the rage over the initial change to Serendipity. Clever players came across a build that was only viable in top-tier raiding if they stacking Intelligence for crit to make Serendipity procs more reliable. Instead of being good sports about it, giving themselves a pat on the back for coming up with a clever build, and accepting that they were leveraging 'clever use of game mechanics' to make their build viable, all of a sudden the vocal minority starts condemning Trion for not making the build viable with chain.

And the ripple effect from all that means that everyone else who is unwilling (or, in the case of mages and rogues, unable) to leverage similar mechanics looks at what they're capable of and compares it to warriors and clerics and all of a sudden Trion has screwed the pooch there, too.

Most often, when players rage that they need to be OP in order to be viable, it's a case of ignorance or laziness. Ignorance if they can't identify what is truly viable regardless of what the "best" may be, and lazy if they know they'd still be fully viable at a lower level of performance but aren't willing to put forth the extra effort to make it so.

I'm not defending the situation as perfect, I'm just saying that if Trion has made any significant mistakes in the process leading up to this debacle it has been in failing to anticipate and manage player perception. So now they know, and with future iterations that can adjust appropriately.

Smart guilds are already telling warriors and clerics that leather and cloth gear is off limits to them until the rogues and mages have received those pieces. In a perfect world, itemization wouldn't be so condensed with so much "wasted" gear, but it is what it is. I just find it disappointing that people are so eager to blame the developers and make such a stink over stuff that really isn't that important.

Edited, Sep 17th 2011 3:24pm by Aurelius
#10 Sep 17 2011 at 7:04 PM Rating: Decent
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When there's an option that significantly increases your performance in an MMO, that option becomes practically mandatory. Nobody wants to be dragged down by someone who decides they don't care about getting the best gear, the best spec, the best enchants, the best consumables, or the best rotation.

If certain builds "break" the game with crit stacking, then that's Trion's fault, not the players'.

Edited, Sep 17th 2011 9:04pm by Sakkura1
#11 Sep 17 2011 at 9:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Sakkura1 wrote:
When there's an option that significantly increases your performance in an MMO, that option becomes practically mandatory. Nobody wants to be dragged down by someone who decides they don't care about getting the best gear, the best spec, the best enchants, the best consumables, or the best rotation.

If certain builds "break" the game with crit stacking, then that's Trion's fault, not the players'.


If the devs tune content to require 1000dps from every member in the group, everyone can do 1200dps except for the <calling> that can do 1800dps, the content doesn't require 1800dps per group member. It still requires 1000dps.
#12 Sep 18 2011 at 6:45 AM Rating: Decent
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But guilds will be pushing for people to reroll so there's more room for error.
#13 Sep 18 2011 at 11:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Sakkura1 wrote:
But guilds will be pushing for people to reroll so there's more room for error.


Only bad guilds or guilds gunning for "world" rankings. Good guilds and, in particular, good raid leaders, understand what the encounters require and are satisfied with any raid composition that can meet those requirements. I ran with top 10% world guilds in WoW (which is good enough to say I understand the basics but not good enough to claim awesomesauce) and they never told people to reroll to milk FotM builds. They would ask people to rethink their build/gear choices if it was performing below the required level, but they were realistic in defining what that required level should be.

There are a LOT more people who play the build they chose because they enjoy it than those who hunker down behind a screen glowing with tables and gear databases and ZAM's soul builder trying to find the "best" of everything. And frankly, when the game starts seeing dramatic changes to the majority because the minority opinion of "best or useless" is being allowed too heavy an influence in developer decisions, that's a problem.

The devs have tried to address both warrior and cleric itemization with the most recent tier of gear and the general consensus is that they did a reasonable job with it, but the min-max crowd is still confusing themselves between condemning Trion for still having leather and cloth as superior alternatives for warriors/clerics ins some cases and raging at Trion when they try to change it.

Edited, Sep 18th 2011 10:52am by Aurelius
#14 Sep 18 2011 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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So if you're doing well enough you'd also expect your guild to be fine if you had no runes and didn't bother using consumables? Min-max is a part of MMOs, and probably always will be.
#15 Sep 18 2011 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Sakkura1 wrote:
So if you're doing well enough you'd also expect your guild to be fine if you had no runes and didn't bother using consumables? Min-max is a part of MMOs, and probably always will be.


Let's try to keep things in perspective here. Runing your gear and using consumables is a given because it's typically not hard to do. Augmenting and using consumables is min-maxing in only the most basic sense, and we're not talking about min-max in general. We're talking about people who took it to an extreme, geared outside intended avenues to perform beyond intended goals and then blamed the developers for not allowing them to perform that way with the "proper" itemization afforded their calling, and then all the trickle-down and QQ that the devs can't properly address until a gear reset.

Edited, Sep 18th 2011 1:20pm by Aurelius
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