Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Rogue 1.5 Changes AnnouncedFollow

#1 Sep 23 2011 at 11:51 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
48 posts
For weeks, there has been speculation about the specifics of the changes made to the Rogue calling. Last night Elrar posted the changes as well as links to various ZAM Soul Tree Calculator builds they tested during the process.

The full text of the post can be found here:
http://forums.riftgame.com/public-test-shard/259312-1-5-rogue-follow-up.html
____________________________
Nepabrite

#2 Sep 23 2011 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
So much rage. It's kind of sad, really. Thankfully, the vocal minority is just that...a minority.
#3 Sep 23 2011 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
**
526 posts
Aurelius wrote:
So much rage. It's kind of sad, really. Thankfully, the vocal minority is just that...a minority.


Alot of that is good feedback. Elrar just posted a a update saying Rogue tanks are getting some love finally in a hotfix to follow very shortly after 1.5 drops.

This all but tells us 1.5 is on Wednesday and they have closed additions to run stability testing on it.
#4 Sep 23 2011 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
I'm not sure I like the way they're approaching this. If they start putting potent AoE in the hands of rogues, warfronts are going to be a gong-show. MM are already obnoxious as **** with Fan Out + Poison spam (I know...I've done it.) I understand these changes are mostly to address concerns about rogue PvE performance but if they take things too far, warfronts are going to be ugly until they hotfix nerfs on the PvP end.
#5 Sep 29 2011 at 8:19 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
9 posts
Well, I was just in a few Warfronts and the rogues killed me so fast it was like I was naked and took all the fun out of it. I mean ALL the fun. I was basically getting three shotted, and I'm not poorly geared. I'm done. Thank you, goodbye. I was a 12 month subscriber, I changed it to 1 month at a time. I'll give Trion about 30 days to realize what a horrible mess they've made and fix it, otherwise I'll go find another MMO. This is one of the biggest reasons I quit playing WoW. They couldn't leave the skill trees alone.


Edited, Sep 29th 2011 10:46am by Indicium
____________________________

[riftsig]1714595[/riftsig]
#6 Sep 29 2011 at 9:38 AM Rating: Excellent
Special Snowflake
Avatar
****
6,786 posts
If you're looking at those ZAM Soul Builds now, they should reflect all the changes. :)
____________________________
[img]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/calthine/EmptyMind-2.jpg[/img]
Community Manager | QA Lead
ZAM: Support FAQ | Forum FAQ | Forum Rules
Cook Ten Rats
#7 Sep 29 2011 at 10:08 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,702 posts
Indicium wrote:
Well, I was just in a few Warfronts and the rogues killed me so fast it was like I was naked and took all the fun out of it. I mean ALL the fun. I was basically getting three shotted, and I'm not poorly geared. I'm done. Thank you, goodbye. I was a 12 month subscriber, I changed it to 1 month at a time. I'll give Trion about 30 days to realize what a horrible mess they've made and fix it, otherwise I'll go find another MMO. This is one of the biggest reasons I quit playing WoW. They couldn't leave the skill trees alone.


Edited, Sep 29th 2011 10:46am by Indicium


Taugrim summed this up very nicely in a thread on the official boards which I shall link here

Personally I feel he was dead on in his assessment. Rogues DID need help, but Trion's standard operating procedure of heavy-handed balance changes was not the answer this time (nor pretty much any other time, actually). Basically they swung rogues too far in the other direction, just like they've done for warriors and mages in previous patches.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#8 Sep 29 2011 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
**
526 posts
This is how I feel. Taugrim makes a point and it. Trion has one **** of a communication issue when it comes to pvp and either they need to get devs with a set of balls to post on the forums or simply get rid of the pvp in this game.

6 months in it is getting kind of old when it comes to pvp in Rift

""http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-general-discussions/pvp-warfronts/261665-trion-dropped-ball-rift-patch-1-5-pvp.html

So I am starting to notice you guys have one **** of a communication issue when it comes to pvp. Go grab your Rogue dev tell him to grow a set of balls and respond to the accusations in this thread before you lose subs over bull****.

Taugrim is correct that you over balanced Rogues and now you have to take responsibility for it. Do not just ninja nerf them like you did with Warriors because a **** ton of talented warriors quit the game when you did that with no communication.

JUST POST YOUR REASONING ON THE FORUMS

Mallace""


#9 Sep 29 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
191 posts
Not so sure about this. Reading through the thread, I am seeing a lot of disagreement there and not just from flamers/trolls.

I do find it a little strange that a 'career' Warrior/Cleric is complaining about Rogue changes, not even a few hours after 1.5 drops.

Very curious...
____________________________
Pikko wrote:
I'm here with the Sticky Wand of Doom!!

Osanshouo wrote:
What makes an unbeatable game fun?
Your friends.


Crysania Majere 50WHM, 50SCH, 50SMN
Kraken Club - Ultros
#10 Sep 29 2011 at 1:16 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,702 posts
DrymChaser wrote:
Not so sure about this. Reading through the thread, I am seeing a lot of disagreement there and not just from flamers/trolls.

I do find it a little strange that a 'career' Warrior/Cleric is complaining about Rogue changes, not even a few hours after 1.5 drops.

Very curious...


Yes, I've heard that argument before, that apparently only professional rogues are allowed to talk about rogue changes... and it's ridiculous.

Speaking as someone who's done game development before, it's ENTIRELY possible to look at a game as a whole objectively (and in fact it's what you absolutely MUST do as a developer). When taken as a whole, this change was too drastic, it pushed rogues too far. Taugrim mentions the skill cap for rogues is really high, and he's right, but what's happened here is that the skill cap came down just a little bit while the skill FLOOR came up. It's now way harder to be a bad rogue, and the people who can do rogue really well can now be absolute monsters.

In the interest of full disclosure, and so you can tell me my opinion doesn't matter either, my top level Rift characters are a warrior and a mage.. my rogue and cleric are in their mid-30s.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#11 Sep 29 2011 at 5:42 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
9 posts
Thanks for posting that link Puremallace. It was very well written and pretty much said what I was feeling, and a lot better than I could. lol
I'm sure all the rogues who felt they needed a buff are very happy with themselves right now and won't want to see the nerf bat coming, but I ask you to consider this. How would you like to be in Warfronts with nothing but other rogues because everyone else quit the game, hmmm?

As an after thought, I do have a level 50 rogue I could start playing in Warfronts and be OP too, and like Taugrim said, "Patch 1.5: Rogues were buffed to the point of enabling skill-less play. Egad." , even I would be good Smiley: nod. However, I prefer to play raid heals.

I have read in a few posts that some people considered Cleric healers to be OP. I never felt this to be the case. The game was challenging to me. But that's what it's supposed to be like. If it's too easy it's boring and if it's too difficult it's no fun. Well, getting three shotted is no fun and makes me useless. I will quit if it isn't fixed. I have been around long enough to know that there will be the inevitable post about "don't let the door hit you in the ****" or the always popular "you're probably a bad player and now you're all QQ." So understand this, I'm not saying I will quit as a threat, I'm saying it as a fact. Games are supposed to be fun, this isn't fun.




Edited, Sep 29th 2011 7:45pm by Indicium
____________________________

[riftsig]1714595[/riftsig]
#12 Sep 29 2011 at 9:37 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
Taugrim knows his stuff when it comes to PvP and anyone who has ever watched any of his narrated videos knows he's pretty level headed and reasonable. I use his M*A*S*H build on my cleric so I know quite well how disruptive healing debuffs are, and the fact that I can buff Vampyric Munitions on my MM and spam Fan Out to debuff a crowd is probably even worse than warrior AoE doing the same thing. If I get a healing debuff on my cleric, I usually die shortly after.


Having said that, I thought the healing siphon on Vampyric Munitions and Fell Blades was a very clever solution on Trion's part. They had to do something about rogue survivability in group PvP and the healing siphon manages that quite nicely. It has limited functionality in solo PvP (unless you're fighting a pure healing build) and if you're only getting FB/VM up on one target at a time in group PvP, it's not overly potent. It's when you get it up on a crowd that's receiving all kinds of passive healing that it gets potent.

There's room to tweak, and if you show up to group PvP with intent to try to help support your team with some sort of healing, healing debuffs suck. It just becomes a question of whether to remove them altogether or tone them down. The healing siphon might just be one of those things people have to adapt to.
#13 Sep 30 2011 at 1:19 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
9 posts
Aurelius wrote:
It's when you get it up on a crowd that's receiving all kinds of passive healing that it gets potent.

There's room to tweak, and if you show up to group PvP with intent to try to help support your team with some sort of healing, healing debuffs suck. It just becomes a question of whether to remove them altogether or tone them down.


You might want to add direct healing to that statement also.Smiley: smile

I appreciate your viewpoint of the healing siphon and it is obvious to me, as what you like to refer to as a "pure healer" which I play, that that portion of it needs to be tweaked;

Now, even though I do have a level 50 Rogue, I tend not to play that toon in PvP as it seemed on the weak side (and after reading all these posts, realize that might be an understatement) I don't believe that is the only issue here. What I saw in the few Warfronts that I played in was a dramatic, I say again for emphasis, dramatic change in the AMOUNT of damage everyone was taking, that I had absolutely no hopes of healing through nor having time to cleanse and heal at the same time, watching people die in twos and threes so fast until I was the only one left, OR as soon as I came "out of the gate" I was jumped and pretty much three shotted. IMO this is a wee bit more than a tweak, and if it did just need a tweak I wouldn't be so vocal about it. This is an outright ***** up.

Also, as another point which you said yourself and Taugrim pointed out, "Yes, they can be cleansed, but that requires a GCD on the part of the healer, and within a few GCDs the FB or VM debuff will be back on the target again." all you have to do is spam fan and put it back up.
____________________________

[riftsig]1714595[/riftsig]
#14 Sep 30 2011 at 11:51 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Indicium wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
It's when you get it up on a crowd that's receiving all kinds of passive healing that it gets potent.

There's room to tweak, and if you show up to group PvP with intent to try to help support your team with some sort of healing, healing debuffs suck. It just becomes a question of whether to remove them altogether or tone them down.


You might want to add direct healing to that statement also.Smiley: smile

I appreciate your viewpoint of the healing siphon and it is obvious to me, as what you like to refer to as a "pure healer" which I play, that that portion of it needs to be tweaked;

Now, even though I do have a level 50 Rogue, I tend not to play that toon in PvP as it seemed on the weak side (and after reading all these posts, realize that might be an understatement) I don't believe that is the only issue here. What I saw in the few Warfronts that I played in was a dramatic, I say again for emphasis, dramatic change in the AMOUNT of damage everyone was taking, that I had absolutely no hopes of healing through nor having time to cleanse and heal at the same time, watching people die in twos and threes so fast until I was the only one left, OR as soon as I came "out of the gate" I was jumped and pretty much three shotted. IMO this is a wee bit more than a tweak, and if it did just need a tweak I wouldn't be so vocal about it. This is an outright ***** up.

Also, as another point which you said yourself and Taugrim pointed out, "Yes, they can be cleansed, but that requires a GCD on the part of the healer, and within a few GCDs the FB or VM debuff will be back on the target again." all you have to do is spam fan and put it back up.


Direct healing is a great source of an MM's recommended daily intake of amgnotdeadyet, but Wardens do have the dispel over time ability that could probably help at least a little bit with the removal of VM and preventing subsequent re-applications of it from sticking for long. It's not 100% as it will use ticks to remove other debuffs as well, but if you see your guys having a hard time dropping an MM it might be worth a shot. The primary issue that's contributing to MM's being a little OP on the survivability end of things right now is the splash healing. If an MM's opponents are rolling with a bard and/or chloro and/or justicar hybrid (or any other cleric build putting out a moderate amount of AoE healing), the constant ticks of healing an MM receives are beyond reasonable, especially if that healing supplemented by healing from friendly sources on their own team.

I've done a number of warfronts with MM over the last couple of days and I dislike it. Part of it is my rank/gear (rank 3 with gear to match) and part of it is the playstyle I feel forced into. Because my rank/gear is mediocre, I still don't have the damage output to drop a higher rank player neatly through any kind of healing, and that leaves VM/Fan Out spam. It's largely a two-button playstyle: spam Eradicate until no more buffs are coming off my target and then spam Fan Out until my target LoSes me or I get focused by higher rank players and have to bolt/die.

Oddly enough, after all the hullabaloo over rogue buffs, I wound up going with a build tonight that probably received some of the least buffing with 1.5 as far as offensive potential goes. I put together a 40 NB/26 RS build. Very good survivability potential and modest offensive capability, and I get to humiliate spacebar fapping MMs who think that hopping up and down incessantly is going to save them from a port-spamming melee/ranged hybrid with a healing debuff every bit is good as theirs (albeit single target onry.)
#15 Oct 01 2011 at 10:54 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
9 posts
Aurelius wrote:
spacebar fapping MMs who think that hopping up and down incessantly is going to save them


I lolled Smiley: lol
____________________________

[riftsig]1714595[/riftsig]
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 20 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (20)