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#1 Oct 11 2011 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Seems the good folks at Trion have gone the route of microtransactions for vanity items. New players to the game have the option to purchase the Ashes of History collector's edition that includes faction tabards, a personal banker, and the spindrel mount. Existing subscribers can upgrade to the AoH CE for $10.

Not a bad price for what you get, though the typical "amg u rooned the game" QQ is already widespread on the forums.

Edit because 'news' without links is poo:

View the AoH CE upgrade here.

Edited, Oct 11th 2011 6:45pm by Aurelius
#2 Oct 11 2011 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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This is what I sent them. I did buy it, but am treating it as a one time thing that was offered with a Canadian CE

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Trion,

Take this as feedback or a threat. If it goes past this I will pull my support for this game very quickly and never look back. You are walking a slippery slope here and this is already being labeled a cash shop.

Singed,
Mallace
#3 Oct 11 2011 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't support taking that attitude with the developers. You're too quick to jump on the "I quit" threat bandwagon. It's $10 for some goodies and a spiffy mount. It's not a lot of money, it's a few extra dollars in Trion's coffers, and I see no indication that this sort of thing would evolve into the sale of functional items (ie. gear) in a cash shop environment.

For the amount of time you spend spamming news and tidbits on every Rift-related forum I can think of, one might think you'd be a bit more reasonable in your response to the various things that happen in-game. Don't be an e-terrorist.
#4 Oct 11 2011 at 8:12 PM Rating: Decent
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I put a lot of time into Rift and spend even more on the pts servers trying to help. It happened in WoW and has now gone pay to win, it happened in Aion and shortly destroyed the economy and went pay to win.

THIS IS A PAY TO PLAY MMO. Trion better not forget it or I will leave until it becomes a f2p mmo. Right this second I am treating it like just another CE that they are offering and not a cash shop.

If they open a "store" with vanity items and mounts, then I am gone. I will probably will not be back until Guild Wars 2. Atleast they admit what it is and p2p + cash shop will never be supported by me and I will take everyone I know with me.
#5 Oct 11 2011 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
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I think you're overreacting a bit.

Cash shops are a part of the industry now and they're here to stay. If you insist that you'll only play an MMO if they don't have a cash shop, you're going to soon find yourself without any MMOs to play.
#6 Oct 11 2011 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
I think you're overreacting a bit.

Cash shops are a part of the industry now and they're here to stay. If you insist that you'll only play an MMO if they don't have a cash shop, you're going to soon find yourself without any MMOs to play.


If I am going to be in a game with a cash shop then I am going to F2P mmo's or GW2. I refuse to accept a cash shop in Rift as long as it has a sub.

Trust me Blizzard did this with WoW. I was there and it became more about the next cash shop item, then content item, soon enough earning in game mounts basically disappeared and the mounts showed up in the cash shop.

Trion can add vanity items into that cash shop, so if you do not want ghetto armor, then goto the cash shop. Once they start down that path there is no stopping.

#7 Oct 11 2011 at 8:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Puremallace wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
I think you're overreacting a bit.

Cash shops are a part of the industry now and they're here to stay. If you insist that you'll only play an MMO if they don't have a cash shop, you're going to soon find yourself without any MMOs to play.


If I am going to be in a game with a cash shop then I am going to F2P mmo's or GW2. I refuse to accept a cash shop in Rift as long as it has a sub.

Trust me Blizzard did this with WoW. I was there and it became more about the next cash shop item, then content item, soon enough earning in game mounts basically disappeared and the mounts showed up in the cash shop.

Trion can add vanity items into that cash shop, so if you do not want ghetto armor, then goto the cash shop. Once they start down that path there is no stopping.



I must have missed that patch in WoW... Last time I checked there are two mounts available from the cash shop and something like 150 in the game for each faction?
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#8 Oct 11 2011 at 8:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:

I must have missed that patch in WoW... Last time I checked there are two mounts available from the cash shop and something like 150 in the game for each faction?


http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/202462/sneak-peek-guardian-cub-tradable-pet
#9 Oct 11 2011 at 8:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Puremallace wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
I think you're overreacting a bit.

Cash shops are a part of the industry now and they're here to stay. If you insist that you'll only play an MMO if they don't have a cash shop, you're going to soon find yourself without any MMOs to play.


If I am going to be in a game with a cash shop then I am going to F2P mmo's or GW2. I refuse to accept a cash shop in Rift as long as it has a sub.

Trust me Blizzard did this with WoW. I was there and it became more about the next cash shop item, then content item, soon enough earning in game mounts basically disappeared and the mounts showed up in the cash shop.

Trion can add vanity items into that cash shop, so if you do not want ghetto armor, then goto the cash shop. Once they start down that path there is no stopping.



I was playing WoW when Blizzard introduced the vanity pets and mounts for a fee as well. And then, just like now, there is the segment of people blowing the whole thing directly out of proportion.

In a world where seemingly every kvetch is punctuated with "fix it to my liking or I'll quit and so will all my friends," can you fault developers for wanting to develop another modest revenue stream?

Since when has Trion ever done anything to lend to you the impression that they're stupid? I know you've flown off the handle in the past and told people here to unsub because of a bug. You're not a loyal customer. Nobody cares about how much you do for them posting news here and testing this and that on the PTS. You're a two-faced e-thug and you need to chill out.
#10 Oct 11 2011 at 9:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Honestly, we went through all this with EQ2 and the world didn't end or anything. I used to feel *just* like you, Puremallace. But it's been three years and it hasn't broken the game.

When they start selling stuff like raid loot for cash, that's when I'm gone. Until then.. *shrug*
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#11 Oct 11 2011 at 10:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Calthine wrote:
Honestly, we went through all this with EQ2 and the world didn't end or anything. I used to feel *just* like you, Puremallace. But it's been three years and it hasn't broken the game.

When they start selling stuff like raid loot for cash, that's when I'm gone. Until then.. *shrug*


I just have a different philosophy then. Right now I understand why they are doing this as a major incentive for Canadians to pick up the game and bolster the NA subs which is cool. People just cried to the point their CE was available for Americans and Euros.

Full out cash shop where I stop earning mounts in game and events where I group with people is when I am done. It literally defeats the purpose of the events if this Raptor I can earn in 1.5 people can simply buy.

I think as long as the game is p2p this should never be introduced.
#13 Oct 13 2011 at 10:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't get why y'all keeps saying that. All kinds of game companies do this, and have been doing it, for a long time.
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#14 Oct 13 2011 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Calthine wrote:
I don't get why y'all keeps saying that. All kinds of game companies do this, and have been doing it, for a long time.


Here is why this is a issue. Blizzard is already known for slow as crap production scheudles. Right now they are rolling out another companion pet, yet telling people wait 6months from July for 4.3

NCSoft in Aion did the same thing. They put vanity items and pets in the cash shop, but content still dragged on was always months and months behind the Koreans.

Now everyone is telling Trion it is ok to do this. We have seen it repeated over and over again in multiples games where the cash shop > content. If they go past what it is right now, then as much as I like Trion as a dev and love Rift I am done.

I play mmo's to save money not to spend more. It takes earning things in a mmorpg out and puts a price on it. In a p2p mmo in my view a cash shop is unacceptable and I have left 2 mmo's over it and will leave a third if I have too.
#15 Oct 13 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Decent
Puremallace wrote:
Calthine wrote:
I don't get why y'all keeps saying that. All kinds of game companies do this, and have been doing it, for a long time.


Here is why this is a issue. Blizzard is already known for slow as crap production scheudles. Right now they are rolling out another companion pet, yet telling people wait 6months from July for 4.3

NCSoft in Aion did the same thing. They put vanity items and pets in the cash shop, but content still dragged on was always months and months behind the Koreans.

Now everyone is telling Trion it is ok to do this. We have seen it repeated over and over again in multiples games where the cash shop > content. If they go past what it is right now, then as much as I like Trion as a dev and love Rift I am done.

I play mmo's to save money not to spend more. It takes earning things in a mmorpg out and puts a price on it. In a p2p mmo in my view a cash shop is unacceptable and I have left 2 mmo's over it and will leave a third if I have too.




Following your line of logic, it takes the same amount of time to make a vanity pet as it does to create content. Obviously this is not the case and - quite simply - it is WoW trying to appease the masses as they work out countless errors and bugs. How long has Trion been working on this new world event? And it was still pulled because of bugs?

TL;DR - I'm just kind of flabbergasted you're so up in arms about this.
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#16 Oct 13 2011 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
And when it all boils down... you don't really seem happy with the way things are progressing. If you aim to save money playing these games then maybe just stop playing now? I mean, you keep saying this timeline is just like every other MMO that turned to crap; why wait around?

Could save more money imo.
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#17 Oct 13 2011 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
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AngeliousRoshai wrote:


Following your line of logic, it takes the same amount of time to make a vanity pet as it does to create content. Obviously this is not the case and - quite simply - it is WoW trying to appease the masses as they work out countless errors and bugs. How long has Trion been working on this new world event? And it was still pulled because of bugs?

TL;DR - I'm just kind of flabbergasted you're so up in arms about this.


Here is what really ****** me off honestly about this. For 6 months we earned the mounts in game through events or drops from Rifts.

If they institute a full out cash shop that stops or at least it did in WoW and Aion. I consider mounts, pets, vanity items part of that 15$ I give Trion every month.

If this was a B2P model like Guild Wars, then yes I could easily understand this line of thinking but it is not. Cash shops have no place in p2p MMO's.

#18 Oct 13 2011 at 11:04 AM Rating: Decent
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When did WoW go "pay to win"? I wasn't aware of any stat-affecting things you could buy from their shop.

I guess this comes down to how you categorize the event; was the Canadian CE box the planned thing, and the "upgrade" to it a reaction to complaints, or was the original plan to get the "upgrade" out there as a digital purchase?

They've always let you buy the original CE "upgrade" for $10. I can understand people who think that's a "cash shop" and object, and I can understand people not objecting, what I can't understand is people who were happy Monday and are unhappy today.
#19 Oct 13 2011 at 11:18 AM Rating: Decent
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seebs wrote:


They've always let you buy the original CE "upgrade" for $10. I can understand people who think that's a "cash shop" and object, and I can understand people not objecting, what I can't understand is people who were happy Monday and are unhappy today.


I was always unhappy with this from the start and even e-mailed them about it saying this was just horrible marketing on their part and MULTIPLE mmo sites have labeled a Canadian CE a cash shop.

The reason this creates rage is because a lot of us remember Scott Hartsman on podcast saying it was not coming to Rift. They even asked him on his most recent pod cast "Will Rift ever go f2p with the competition out there?" and he said, "Rift does not support that model and we have no plans on implementing that"

If I can find the pod cast I will and post it to make sure I get the wording perfect.


#20 Oct 13 2011 at 11:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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I never fail to be amazed at the "You did this so you weren't doing this" attitude that drips out of virtually every MMO forum you can imagine.

When you've got a team working on a live game the entire team is not dedicated to performing a single task at once. Trion, Blizzard, Square-Enix, NCSoft... none of their dev teams are composed of one guy sitting in a basement somewhere. They have art teams, design teams, coding teams, hardware teams, etc etc. And odds are, they're all working on multiple projects at once.

Blizzard at one point said that they're virtually always working an expansion ahead. What that means is that while Cataclysm is current content, they have another team busy designing their next expansion (and possibly the one after that).

I can't imagine Trion is not working at least 2 or 3 major content patches ahead of themselves.. if not already doing top-level design for their first expansion.

Working two or three patches ahead does NOT mean things like:
- Class balance
- Bug fixes
- Instance adjustments

Those things are done patch-by-patch since they aren't part of future design goals.

When a company like Trion comes out with this collector's edition, those assets have been in design for quite a while before you ever see them previewed. They didn't "not fix mages" (or whatever) because they were doing this instead. It doesn't work like that.

Apologies for the rant, but this is something I see all too often from people I thought were too intelligent not to realize it.

EDIT: Caveat: Square-Enix's team for FF14 might actually have been composed of one guy sitting in a basement somewhere.. consider that the exception that proves the rule Smiley: sly

Edited, Oct 13th 2011 12:23pm by Callinon
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#21 Oct 13 2011 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Trion seems to work differently then you are used to from that podcast I was talking about. Apparently they give their devs some serious lee way on how they implement new content.

Like Library of the Runemasters is Daglars child. He was the dev who was our pts contact and I think Scott said they wanted it that way before it basically eliminated the red tape.

Ember Isle is a perfect example. If you look at the leakz from 2 months ago and compare them to today these guys are in over drive for making new content.

As I said this was just bad marketing and it got labeled as a cash shop and now they are screwed because Trion is getting lumped in with Sony, Funcom, Blizzard, NCSoft.

Edited, Oct 13th 2011 1:33pm by Puremallace
#22 Oct 13 2011 at 6:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Puremallace wrote:
As I said this was just bad marketing and it got labeled as a cash shop and now they are screwed because Trion is getting lumped in with Sony, Funcom, Blizzard, NCSoft.


I been tellin' ya :)

On the other hand, who has money on "slippery slope"?
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#23 Oct 13 2011 at 9:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the correlation between upgrades and vanity item packs available for a fee and the game going free to play is ludicrous. There is no such correlation.

I'll worry about Rift going F2P if/when the devs announce it's going F2P. And I won't care if it does. I'm not going to get worked up over what might happen. There's no point. I'm enjoying the game now and there's no benefit to me undermining my own enjoyment by nurturing anxiety over something that hasn't happened.
#24 Oct 13 2011 at 10:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
I think the correlation between upgrades and vanity item packs available for a fee and the game going free to play is ludicrous. There is no such correlation.

I'll worry about Rift going F2P if/when the devs announce it's going F2P. And I won't care if it does. I'm not going to get worked up over what might happen. There's no point. I'm enjoying the game now and there's no benefit to me undermining my own enjoyment by nurturing anxiety over something that hasn't happened.


Right now here is how the mmo industry has worked. Your game sucks and loses steam for whatever reason..Aion...WAR..DCUO...AoC

Before League of Legends no dev in the US remotely thought f2p could be profitable no matter whatever bandwagon you see John Smedley riding he never thought it was a money maker.

LoL proved if done correctly you could bank heavily. So people are seeing bad games go f2p like the ones I listed above. WAR and Aion are right on that path right now and anyone can see it.

Rift is in no way shape or form on that path. WoW fans like it or not, but this game is having a serious effect on Blizzard....warrior charge is getting fixed after 5 years...rogue stealth fixed...now there is talk of adding a thing in LFG so that if someone does not queue you stay at the front of the line...transmogrify when Blizzard said it was not possible...**** when is the last time you heard anyone since Rift launched talk abut premium features in WoW...WoW free up to lvl 20 now...slashed prices and direct competitive weekends for free trials?

Rift by every definition has succeeded and ToR coming along does not change that. That was like some WoW fans went ...why leave WoW to do what I am already doing over here? That aggressive release schedule for Rift has not slowed and they are simply putting Blizzard to shame on content right now. They showed off Eternity Vault...that is a raid...you think a 5 boss raid with 16 players will compete with 9 boss Deathwing raid + 3 heroics and looking for raid feature made by a dev who owns raiding in mmorpgs just because it has light sabers? There is no chance and Blizzard is saving 4.3 just for this fact because they know it and under estimating Blizzard is what got WAR and Aion in serious trouble with subs.

I half way expect Trion to break out RvR and Planetouched Wilds in 1.7 as a answer to ToR. It would not surprise me.

These f2p claims are just crazy when you look at dev doing this and then see what types of games have gone f2p. They were dying and I mean on life support. ToR fans need to ask themselves do you really want Rift fans? They are going to be asking for stuff you technically hate like cross server war fronts....cross server LFG...dual spec. This is all things Rift fans going to ToR have to deal with and those are not minor things like lack of swimming or no day/night cycles.







Edited, Oct 14th 2011 12:15am by Puremallace
#25 Oct 13 2011 at 10:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Puremallace wrote:
Right now here is how the mmo industry has worked. Your game sucks and loses steam for whatever reason..Aion...WAR..DCUO...AoC


You're overlooking Turbine's influence on the F2P phenomenon. I believe it was D&D Online that they had and it was suffering miserably so they converted it to F2P and it worked out well for them. They got more people playing and wound up earning more money from it than when it was a sub-based title. So they decided to take a game that was not suffering...LOTRO...and do the same thing. And the outcome was the same; more people playing, and more money generated. LOTRO wasn't topping any charts but it had a very loyal (albeit niche) playerbase and the title was earning Turbine money but they saw what happened with D&D and decided to take a chance and it paid off.

Hence, MMOs going F2P is stigmatized as, "You only did it because your game was failing." Turbine proved with LOTRO that trying to save a struggling game isn't the only valid reason to take a game F2P.

HOWEVER...

None of that is relevant to this discussion. As I said, vanity item packs and account upgrades for a small fee are not indicative in any way of a shift towards a F2P model. There's no need to be so paranoid about it. It takes development time and money to put together the perks and upgrades, but it doesn't require a full team effort to do it meaning that there is still abundant developer time available to keep up the content additions we're used to seeing with Rift. One guy on a team of 50+ people gets tasked with developing a new mount that is released as a premium offering. That doesn't mean, "Oh, well now they're spending all of their development time putting together premium vanity crap so obviously the game is going to go downhill."

Correlation =/= causation. The devs put together an updated CE offering in partnership with Best Buy in Canada. People already playing the game saw the spider, liked the spider, and wanted the spider. The devs provided a means to get the spider without undermining the benefit of the item for the soon-to-be new CE customers. It's not personal...it's just business. Trion already adds tons upon tons of value to Rift with all the content updates, additions, bug fixes, and generally offering a world class service above and beyond anything any other game has done and the icing on the cake is that they're doing it with a trivial amount of weekly downtime. Tuesday maintenance with WoW was a scheduled 4-8+ hour weekly affair unless we lucked out and just got the rolling restarts. A long maintenance day for Rift is 4 hours, and that always means hardware upgrades and/or substantial content updates. Average weekly maintenance is 30mins, and the benefits are usually tangible. Trion can afford to offer perks and bits for a trivial sum because they already do so much for us with our basic sub.

It's not the end of the world. It's not a dark omen. It's a spider and a banker and a wife beater. For 10 whole dollars. Not a big deal.
#26 Oct 15 2011 at 8:32 AM Rating: Decent
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I am having a hard time seeing how people are upset about this. How does Joe Blow spending ten bucks on a spider mount affect ME??? Here I am riding my horse (which I freakin love!) farmin a few mats for apothecary doin the odd minor rift as I go about my daily business, when all of a sudden someone rides by on a spider mount!!!! O...M...G!! Him ridining by on that spider mount just RUINED rift for me! All my mats I farmed are meaningless now, time to quit rift because he bought something that I don't need.

Who cares!!

Rift is still rift and Hella fun! I couldn't care less if tomorrow I logged on and seen two hundred people riding a Thrall mount that they bought off eBay... Today's guild raid would still go on the same as it would regardless of what other people are spending their money on!
#27 Oct 17 2011 at 7:25 AM Rating: Good
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Rift 1.6 is going to have a zone that is twice the size of the biggest zone in Rift with a lot of added content, probably the biggest update since release. I didn't mind spending the 10.00$ because in a sense with 1.6's release, and what they added with 1.5 already... to me that was pretty much an expansion. And considering a lot of companies charge 40.00 minimum for an expansion... I'm not complaining. Everything for the $10.00 was just a bonus.

I do hope that eventually Trion revisits all the event rewards and also the rare titles/mounts/pre-order bonuses down the road and makes them available. I'm like to complete everything and I would actually pay for some stuff. If you love Rift, 10.00$ is nothing. 1.5 + 1.6 = expansion and I don't think a lot of people that play would disagree with me.

The biggest draw for Rift to me hands down. There is ALWAYS content bringing you back to all the zones in the game. Whether it be dungeons, rifts, achievements. Every zone is utilized... and I love it.

Edited, Oct 17th 2011 9:27am by Excenmille
#28 Oct 17 2011 at 7:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Excenmille wrote:


The biggest draw for Rift to me hands down. There is ALWAYS content bringing you back to all the zones in the game. Whether it be dungeons, rifts, achievements. Every zone is utilized... and I love it.



That is the biggest draw for me also. As much as I like WoW's big world it got annoying leaving a zone and knowing there was no reason to ever go back.

ToR gives me that exact feeling. It feels big, but all the zones are disconnected and I saw no reason to leave the path they put you on and when you did there was nothing extra. I just do not understand this obsession with voice overs lately. In Rift or even WoW most of the npc's have some type of story to tell, but in ToR from what I saw only the ones with yellow boxes talk and the rest are just fillers.

I have tested on Ember Isle quite a lot and it is not so big to the point I will not see anyone. I do not see Trion falling into that WoW trap that now Ember Isle is out no reason ever to goto a Stillmoor, IPP, or Shimmer event ever again.
#29 Oct 17 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah not impressed with TOR either and I played the BETA pretty extensively. But I don't want to put anyone off from buying it. The story itself is worth the price. I think that's why it will probably sell well. Whether TOR retains a player base after the first 30 days? Maybe if people want to take every story path.

#2 reason for loving Rift, their Planar Attunement system is not game breaking and even with the next two sections unlocked, they can always raise the level cap and introduce a new system or expand the Planar Attunement into another tier. It's pretty epic in my mind when I think about what it could become. For being an entirely new MMO with a somewhat different game compared to most; Rift is a huge success.

Edited, Oct 17th 2011 12:28pm by Excenmille
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