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#1 Dec 14 2011 at 7:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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So I just wanted to point out that your ZAM login will work at our sister site, Torhead!

Who's trying it for a bit?
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#2 Dec 14 2011 at 9:54 PM Rating: Decent
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No chance. The phasing is about as bad as I thought it would be and is heavily abused. No real UI customization..macros..no auto attack...swimming.

I'll wait till it goes on sale. No chance I am supporting a dev leaving so much out in launch.
#3 Dec 14 2011 at 11:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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The lack of UI customization bugs the **** out of me (especially after playing Rift.. the UI-customizablest stock game ever).

The auto attack thing doesn't really bother me because the game isn't designed to care about it and everybody has a basic attack they can use for free when they don't have something better to push. Swimming never matters unless they make you swim (hi2u Aion).

The phasing is necessary because of the class-centric questing and story that the game is built around. I think it's used well actually and I much prefer it to a zillion loading screens
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#5 Dec 15 2011 at 1:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hubby is enamored of it. I'd give it a whirl but I have enough games on my plate right now!
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#6 Dec 15 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:


The phasing is necessary because of the class-centric questing and story that the game is built around. I think it's used well actually and I much prefer it to a zillion loading screens


I am talking about zone phasing. Aion did this too with maybe one or two channels for different phases. TOR takes it to the extreme with 9 or so different zones.

So you enter a server that says full and there are only 20 people in your zone. It is a assinine way to approach a mmorpg. You goto a major city and you see yourself and a few others, but chat is flying by.

#7 Dec 15 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
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Puremallace wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:


The phasing is necessary because of the class-centric questing and story that the game is built around. I think it's used well actually and I much prefer it to a zillion loading screens


I am talking about zone phasing. Aion did this too with maybe one or two channels for different phases. TOR takes it to the extreme with 9 or so different zones.

So you enter a server that says full and there are only 20 people in your zone. It is a assinine way to approach a mmorpg. You goto a major city and you see yourself and a few others, but chat is flying by.



Oooooh ok, that's what you're talking about...

Honestly I don't have a problem with NOT having a thousand people all trying to complete the same quest at the same time with the same two dozen slow-respawning mobs.. somehow that just doesn't bother me.

Actually during the second beta weekend I decided to roll up a new character and I literally couldn't accomplish anything because of all the over-crowding that was going on. So if anything (at least on launch when everyone's clumped up) I feel like they need to take it even further and divide instances of the zones out more than they already are just so everyone's play experience isn't miserable.
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#8 Dec 15 2011 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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It comes down to a issue of forethought and thinking past the LAUNCH phase. They are called respawn timers and if you know much about a dev team changing that number is **** easy to do.

To me it feels like more MMORPG features that have been removed. If I wanted to play a game where I do not have to worry about people ganking my mobs or questing near me I would play Skyrim.

This is single player RPG thinking in a mmorpg. Imagine Rift zone events, but with different zone channels? It would be simply ridiculous. How the **** does world pvp even work like this? Do I search each channel to find someone to gank?

There are certain things with this mmo that make little to no sense after 7 years of lessons learned from watching WoW. If people want to pretend that the last 7 years never happened then that is on them. I refuse to debate with a hard headed dev that does not understand cross server war fronts reduce queue time or even putting simple macros into the game does not harm anything.

Once they get on board with even basic MMO concepts then I can see playing this game along side Rift, but it will be a cold day in **** before I get tricked into another half ***'d attempt at a mmorpg from someone trying to cash in.
#9 Dec 15 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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Puremallace wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:


The phasing is necessary because of the class-centric questing and story that the game is built around. I think it's used well actually and I much prefer it to a zillion loading screens


I am talking about zone phasing. Aion did this too with maybe one or two channels for different phases. TOR takes it to the extreme with 9 or so different zones.

So you enter a server that says full and there are only 20 people in your zone. It is a assinine way to approach a mmorpg. You goto a major city and you see yourself and a few others, but chat is flying by.



That's not zone phasing. That's instancing--old technology! :)

If there's too many people in the world, it will spawn another instance of the world and shove new arrivals in there. Grouping with someone will allow you to go into their instance of the world so that you're all in the same one. I didn't realize it did this until I went to help someone asking for help in the channel--the game immediately asked if I wanted to go into their instance of the world. (Asked, because I'm pretty sure there was a yes/no option attached.)
#10 Dec 18 2011 at 2:25 AM Rating: Good
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I've been following SWOTOR half-heartedly since FFXIV took a dump on my hopes and dreams...

Can't say I'm all that hyped about it, and it's mostly for a variety of reasons that have little to do with the quality of the game. I love Bioware's stuff. DA:O and both ME games provided me with many hours of entertainment. Bioware does what they do and they do it well. I've played my share of games built on the Star Wars IP and enjoyed most of them.

The thing is, I don't see myself enjoying the story-driven aspects of the game in an MMO like that. I watched some of mikeb's stuff and how he would choose a certain response to a situation and his choice was over-ridden by his group. He still gets the light/dark side points based on his choice (and being mikeb you had to know it would be dark side points :P) but his experience and the way the game plays out is influenced by the people in his group. Bad enough group mates in MMOs can cause you to fail in your objectives because they suck, or take longer to get things done than is ever necessary because they suck, or make you wait forever while they ask everyone they know if the trivial upgrade that just rolled Need on is better than the piece of **** they were originally using (because they didn't know but rolled anyways just in case so now they've got it and need a goddam committee to decide if they should use it or not)... Now they can force me to miss out on the scenes and outcomes of my decisions because they want to play a different way? pffft

In short, an MMO to me is about the gameplay, not the story. In a perfect world, an MMORPG would combine both without sacrificing either but the reality is that that game doesn't exist yet and is probably years away from existing. In the meantime, if I were to play SWOTOR it would be for the story, not the multiplayer aspect. My understanding is that you can do that, which is cool, but I'm not interested in the multiplayer aspect, I'm not interested in paying a subscription for access to it. From a gameplay point of view, I haven't seen anything all that compelling about SWOTOR and from everything I'm hearing, it's not horrible but it is pretty generic.

If SWOTOR had the gameplay and world detail of Skyrim, the story and NPC character interaction of DA:O and ME1/2, and a grouping experience that raised the bar for the MMORPG genre as a whole, I'd be all over it. I see it as a home for fans of the Star Wars IP mourning the loss of SWG, people looking for a new generic MMO to call home, and a few hundred thousand bandwagon jumpers that will be winding up the rhetoric whinefest on the SWOTOR forums until GW2 and Titan are available for their semi-annual snivel-fit migration.
#11 Dec 18 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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SWTOR simply proves how much the mmorpg community does not care about a good quality made MMORPG. Now we will sit here watching the forums for the next few month as the idiots beg Bioware for stuff that Rift launched, but hey Rift is the incomplete game AMIRIGHT?

Macros...pft who needs them..just click to heal and spam buttons. Swimming...pft who needs it no water.....Alive world...pft who needs it we like our world completely dead...quick hot fixes..pft who needs it we can handle exploits that let people get to 50 in 4 days with no consequences

TOR proves you can launch a incomplete game with any IP and sell a million copies. Complete hypocrisy in the genre right now is hilarious.

Then come a month from now the derps will come back to Rift wanting to play and notice their server is gone. Just proves how idiotic the mmorpg community is right now. This entire genre is completely stalled with ZERO chance of ever moving forward.

When every single person I know says "I will play it for a month just for the story, then leave" you got major issues. Nooone wants to pay a monthly sub for a single player rpg.

Trion is also ******* me off being so silent this month with zero response to SWTOR. We know 1.7 is coming on 1/4/2012, but there is zero pts testing and zero word from Trion. They picked a **** of a time to go on Christmas vacation. They might come back and be missing a few servers.


Edited, Dec 18th 2011 4:08pm by Puremallace
#12 Dec 18 2011 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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Puremallace wrote:
SWTOR simply proves how much the mmorpg community does not care about a good quality made MMORPG. Now we will sit here watching the forums for the next few month as the idiots beg Bioware for stuff that Rift launched, but hey Rift is the incomplete game AMIRIGHT?

Macros...pft who needs them..just click to heal and spam buttons. Swimming...pft who needs it no water.....Alive world...pft who needs it we like our world completely dead...quick hot fixes..pft who needs it we can handle exploits that let people get to 50 in 4 days with no consequences

TOR proves you can launch a incomplete game with any IP and sell a million copies. Complete hypocrisy in the genre right now is hilarious.

Then come a month from now the derps will come back to Rift wanting to play and notice their server is gone. Just proves how idiotic the mmorpg community is right now. This entire genre is completely stalled with ZERO chance of ever moving forward.

When every single person I know says "I will play it for a month just for the story, then leave" you got major issues. Nooone wants to pay a monthly sub for a single player rpg.

Trion is also ******* me off being so silent this month with zero response to SWTOR. We know 1.7 is coming on 1/4/2012, but there is zero pts testing and zero word from Trion. They picked a **** of a time to go on Christmas vacation. They might come back and be missing a few servers.


Edited, Dec 18th 2011 4:08pm by Puremallace



While I do somewhat agree with some of the points you've made here, there are a few things...

I don't think releasing an incomplete game with ANY IP would work. The fact that the IP is Star Wars probably leads people to overlook things that should be in a launch and aren't

I doubt Trion would eliminate servers because of a one-month drop in subs coinciding with a major release

If people really CAN play the whole story out in a month, they wouldn't be paying a sub fee for SWTOR

Trion picked Christmas to go on Christmas vacation? Yes that WAS inconsiderate of them
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#13 Dec 18 2011 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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When Rift launched people could not find very many reasons to criticize so everyone turned into a fashion critic. Everyone remembers the "zomg it is like so not fashion savy and like omg I am so unsubbing the color pallette is so 2010"

Lets look at what actual criticism looks like, since people have such short memories and can not recognize what a quality mmo looks like

Also minor little stuff like ohhhhhh reporting a bug in game? where is that? Every single patch Rift has released has been content because they have not had to waste time putting in the basics.

TOR pushes alts very heavily wayyy more so then Rift ever did, but did not launch with this button?

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/4543/importo.png

Macros...argue if they are good or bad, but if you are a healer looking for a @mouseover macro keep moving because TOR does not have it

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/9687/macros.png

Welcome to 2011! Social media networks are everywhere and Rift is THE ONLY mmo that I know to integrate it so heavily into their game. Also not to mention I can record videos in Rift and upload them directly to youtube


There is a Puremallace channel on youtube because of this feature.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4003/socialp.png

Targets target? This is basic beyond belief and the fact it was left out is shocking

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2681/combatxb.png

Edit layout...This is ungodly basic and people should be fired for not having this

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3677/43758626.png

Do not feel like spending time clicking every item at a vendor? click a button...OPPS sold a item accidentally go ahead and buy it back without a GM ticket

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/1996/sellall.png

Pick a gfx option..any option. Anti aliasing was left out..opps

http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/9158/aavisualoptions.png

Achievements! I want to have a extra challenge. Where is my incentive to try something different on my 40th time running in a dungeon?

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/9628/achievementsr.png

Artifacts? Where is my incentive to leave the path? Where is the point of exploring? Yeah they put datacrons in and they spawn in the exact same spot..not random...give permanent stat bonuses and will be required

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/9041/artifactso.png

Edited, Dec 18th 2011 6:49pm by Puremallace
#14 Dec 18 2011 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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I agree with all those points. SWTOR is far from perfect, you might even call it far from ready for release.

But what it does, it does pretty well. The development time seems like it was focused on making the story aspect of the game top quality. This is obviously to the loss of some basic features you expect in an MMO released in 2011.

They left themselves a lot of room for improvement (perhaps too much) but they didn't release a game that isn't fun to play. The product they put forth IS a game that can be played without feeling like you're torturing yourself (unlike some OTHER MMOs with large roman numerals in their name.... sigh).

As someone who's done a lot of healing, I can get by without mouseover macros, though I'll admit that it sucks not having some reasonable interface for healing. Target's target IS accessible through an assist key, but it should be part of the UI. I may be mis-remembering, but I think the beta had a buyback button on the vendor pane. Though I'll go ahead and agree that not having a "sell all trash" button on a vendor pane is annoying, though you can just order your companion to do this for you while you sell non-gray items.

The social media thing actually kind of annoyed me with Rift. I don't want to bombard my Facebook friends with updates about how much time I spend playing MMOs (most of them couldn't care less). The Youtube thing Rift has IS pretty badass and it's not a feature I've ever seen in another MMO, I wouldn't call it basic though, I'd call it a feature of Rift.

UI customization is a sticking point with me, because I heavily customize my UI. Not having any.. sucks... it just does. This needs be implemented asap. Oh and not carrying settings and keybinds over between alts can F right off.

Edited, Dec 18th 2011 6:11pm by Callinon
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#15 Dec 18 2011 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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There are certain MMOs that lend themselves to a disproportionate amount of fanboi-ism, leading them to retain subscribers that would have otherwise left based on polish and/or gameplay alone. Things like Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, and yes...Star Wars...draw population elements that would play an 8-bit MMORPG if it was the latest thing to boast the license from their preferred IP.

Star Wars also seems to attract a disproportionate number of RPers. Not that I have anything against RPers per se, but they don't ever strike me as gamers. I've never met an RPer who was also good at the game they played. And the last time I came across a public display of RP was during the FFXIV open beta and I wanted to stab the lot of them with a freshly crafted spatha. I can see it now...thousands of SWG converts on official launch day musing openly in public channels about how they've somehow forgotten everything they once knew and how the galaxy looks somehow 'new' to them... (although anything could be better than, "I hail from a world called Vana'diel and was a mage of the order of the red until a portal through space and time opened up beneath me and I found myself here...")

Dork.

SWOTOR will do just fine, though the true test is yet to come: whether or not they can continue to stay ahead of the progression curve and release content of equal or greater quality to what the game ships with at a pace that keeps players genuinely interested and happily occupied.
#16 Dec 18 2011 at 7:11 PM Rating: Good
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It comes down to content in the end. What new fresh thing can you throw to the playerbase? You better be throwing it fast regularly and it better be good. Blizzard is finally getting torn a new one for recycling and making people wait 6 months for something new to do.

You are extremely correct in saying TOR will hold a playerbase for the simple fact Star Wars fans are obsessive, but they are also two faced. If they were loyal and dedicated SWG would still be alive and we would be talking about how great it is.

The problem with TOR is it has the exact opposite issue Rift does. Rift the leveling is bland and rolling alts is painful, but once you get to end game there are a crap ton of options and more being added.

The way TOR end game was described me is you "get to end game and finish the story quest and you have saved everyone" then it turns into WoW. You log on and your options become pvp or raids. The way the game is built there is zero reason to go back to the worlds you left.

I finished all the story quest in Stillmoor maybe 7 months ago, but I go there every day I login into Rift. Same with Ember Isle where I finished all the story content, but I go back.

I put the list up there and anyone who thinks all that can be solved within a month by a dev team is on crack. TOR fans will spend the next 6 months asking for features Rift launched...this is not even adding in stuff like Planar Attunement..monthly updates of content...ward drobe tab...world events to get people out of the cities...LFG feature..instant adventures

It is like Bioware pretended Rifts launch never happened and went about the regular run of the mill. If there had been no Rift then everyone would be praising it for the features, but with Rift TOR just looks dated.

People are seriously asking EA for free transfers? You have to got to be kidding because it will never happen.
#17 Dec 18 2011 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
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To be fair, Bioware was already full steam ahead on production for SWOTOR when Rift was launched. They were well beyond the point of no return with tens of millions of dollars invested already. It's not just adding the content that will be the issue...it will be adding the content to include all the cinematic dialogue scenes and voice overs. All of that takes time. One thing that disappointed me with DA:O and ME1/2 was that the DLC always seemed quite shallow, and the pace of release didn't impress. When you're waiting 2-3 months between DLC offerings and it takes you no more than a couple of hours to blast through everything they added, there's an issue and it's left to be seen just what Bioware will be able to do with SWOTOR to overcome that. Dailies and rep grinds will probably be the order of the day with SWOTOR just like it is with every other MMO, and that means that it's greatest selling point aside from the IP will get left behind. If you're producing and hyping a game around compelling story and you can't keep the story flowing, people are going to lose interest.
#18 Dec 18 2011 at 8:40 PM Rating: Good
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I think the biggest hurdle they have to face is creating recyclable PvE content.

There's a reason you're supposed to take a slow, casual pace to max level in SWTOR, the point is the story. But I think that may also prove to be a problem, because at the end of the day, how many times do you REALLY want to see the same dialog with the same NPCs, asking about the same thing you no longer care about?

I think that they can probably make it work and I'm not concerned that it doesn't have the same features that another MMO has (I'm concerned with some of the basic stuff that it's missing, but I don't particularly care that it doesn't have AA or Youtube recording). It isn't fair to dismiss it simply because it doesn't have all of Rift's features, that isn't how you analyze things critically.
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#19 Dec 18 2011 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I am just not big on the stupid band wagon thing I see going on alot with mmo's...WAR is here got jump ship for that...Now Aion is here got to go there...now Rift..got to go there...now TOR..got to go there...GW2 is here got to goto that now

I played Aion and still would be if NCSoft gave any indication they gave a crap about the game. Once Aion NA goes F2P it is getting installed back on my desk top because I still know people there.

Trion has not given me a reason to jump ship. Obviously a lot of people have the same feeling because the servers are still stable.

#20 Dec 19 2011 at 5:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm with Puremallace here. (I seem to be saying that a lot, too.) The biggest thing for me is how unimpressive the PvP looked compared to what I already have. All of the videos I've seen of SWTOR PvP made it look like the PvP in WoW and Rift. I'm not going to switch if the PvP is the same-old, same-old. The only reason I gave Rift a go in the first place was because I was offered a free copy. The PvP is pretty much the same as WoW's but with fewer bugs.
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#21 Dec 19 2011 at 6:02 PM Rating: Good
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emallson wrote:
I'm with Puremallace here. (I seem to be saying that a lot, too.) The biggest thing for me is how unimpressive the PvP looked compared to what I already have. All of the videos I've seen of SWTOR PvP made it look like the PvP in WoW and Rift. I'm not going to switch if the PvP is the same-old, same-old. The only reason I gave Rift a go in the first place was because I was offered a free copy. The PvP is pretty much the same as WoW's but with fewer bugs.


You must not have seen Huttball.. because Huttball is awesome.

Here's a video of MikeB wrecking folks in it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odvcxs-OA9Q&feature=g-u&context=G219df3eFUAAAAAAABAA
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#22 Dec 19 2011 at 6:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm debating whether to try this out. I don't know, very skeptical. I had mixed reactions on the pvp, it felt really slow. Has anyone tried out the level 50 pvp zone?
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#23 Dec 19 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:


You must not have seen Huttball.. because Huttball is awesome.


You say it is great, but you obviously missed the twitch live feeds where pre mades where utterly DOMINATING TEAMSSS

The traps are pointless and the strategy is idiotically simple. People are raging hard about how bad this war front is.

TOR can be better, but they need to fix some core issues. I have no REASON to leave Rift right now.

Edited, Dec 19th 2011 7:32pm by Puremallace
#24 Dec 19 2011 at 6:46 PM Rating: Good
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Puremallace wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:


You must not have seen Huttball.. because Huttball is awesome.


You say it is great, but you obviously missed the twitch live feeds where pre mades where utterly DOMINATING TEAMSSS

The traps are pointless and the strategy is idiotically simple. People are raging hard about how bad this war front is.

TOR can be better, but they need to fix some core issues. I have no REASON to leave Rift right now.

Edited, Dec 19th 2011 7:32pm by Puremallace


Honestly, I feel like complaints how Huttball being hard have more to do with the fact that people haven't seen this style of battleground before and they don't know what to do with it. Give them time and most of them will figure it out.

Also premades will basically ALWAYS wreck a team of randoms, it doesn't matter what type of organized pvp you're talking about
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#25 Dec 19 2011 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, here's the early review: I'll have lots of time for my games, as I'm a SWTOR widow!
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#26 Dec 19 2011 at 10:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
emallson wrote:
I'm with Puremallace here. (I seem to be saying that a lot, too.) The biggest thing for me is how unimpressive the PvP looked compared to what I already have. All of the videos I've seen of SWTOR PvP made it look like the PvP in WoW and Rift. I'm not going to switch if the PvP is the same-old, same-old. The only reason I gave Rift a go in the first place was because I was offered a free copy. The PvP is pretty much the same as WoW's but with fewer bugs.


You must not have seen Huttball.. because Huttball is awesome.

Here's a video of MikeB wrecking folks in it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odvcxs-OA9Q&feature=g-u&context=G219df3eFUAAAAAAABAA


No, I saw Huttball (from that video actually). Single flag CTF with traps and the ability to throw the flag. What I was referring to was actually the mechanics of fighting other players. It's exactly the same as, well, every other MMO in recent memory. I know, I know: If it isn't broken don't fix it. But it's nothing new and therefore I'm not really interested.

(My friend is trying to get me to play it, so to appease him I promised that I'd try it out on his account. Will let you know what I think after actually playing it instead of just seeing it.)
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#27 Dec 20 2011 at 12:22 AM Rating: Good
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emallson wrote:
No, I saw Huttball (from that video actually). Single flag CTF with traps and the ability to throw the flag. What I was referring to was actually the mechanics of fighting other players. It's exactly the same as, well, every other MMO in recent memory. I know, I know: If it isn't broken don't fix it. But it's nothing new and therefore I'm not really interested.

(My friend is trying to get me to play it, so to appease him I promised that I'd try it out on his account. Will let you know what I think after actually playing it instead of just seeing it.)


There were a couple of things that turned me off from SWOTOR PvP in general. First was the "terrain" in Huttball. For some reason I just find it bland. You know how you look at something relatively benign and you still find it somewhat offensive for some reason? That was my response to the environment in the much touted Huttball. And after watching some streams and reading about how SWOTOR PvP works (specifically, no level brackets), all I really saw was the kind of PvP that would drive me bonkers over time. I don't care how much you buff my stats and such to make up for the fact I'm a level 17 guy going up against level 50 players...they've got their full ******* of abilities and probably at some point in the future they'll have a fairly pronounced edge in terms of gear. The same crying we get in the Rift PvP forums is going to entrench itself in the SWOTOR forums. "Buff me and nerf him" and "amg level brackets nao or your game will die."

My point of view has, oddly enough, nothing to do with whether or not SWOTOR PvP is good or bad. It's just not different enough to warrant shifting to a new game and dealing with that game's inherent imperfections.
#28 Dec 20 2011 at 1:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
emallson wrote:
No, I saw Huttball (from that video actually). Single flag CTF with traps and the ability to throw the flag. What I was referring to was actually the mechanics of fighting other players. It's exactly the same as, well, every other MMO in recent memory. I know, I know: If it isn't broken don't fix it. But it's nothing new and therefore I'm not really interested.

(My friend is trying to get me to play it, so to appease him I promised that I'd try it out on his account. Will let you know what I think after actually playing it instead of just seeing it.)


There were a couple of things that turned me off from SWOTOR PvP in general. First was the "terrain" in Huttball. For some reason I just find it bland. You know how you look at something relatively benign and you still find it somewhat offensive for some reason? That was my response to the environment in the much touted Huttball. And after watching some streams and reading about how SWOTOR PvP works (specifically, no level brackets), all I really saw was the kind of PvP that would drive me bonkers over time. I don't care how much you buff my stats and such to make up for the fact I'm a level 17 guy going up against level 50 players...they've got their full ******* of abilities and probably at some point in the future they'll have a fairly pronounced edge in terms of gear. The same crying we get in the Rift PvP forums is going to entrench itself in the SWOTOR forums. "Buff me and nerf him" and "amg level brackets nao or your game will die."

My point of view has, oddly enough, nothing to do with whether or not SWOTOR PvP is good or bad. It's just not different enough to warrant shifting to a new game and dealing with that game's inherent imperfections.

Exactly.
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#29 Dec 20 2011 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Here is Huttball summary...

grab ball
put up shield..absorb all damage
have person stand on other platform
throw the ball
they put up their shield
run down ramp..while shield absorbs everything
score

Yes so complicated. Like I said I saw a pre made of THREE people utterly dominate another team.

Calthine wrote:
Well, here's the early review: I'll have lots of time for my games, as I'm a SWTOR widow!


What does this mean?

Edited, Dec 20th 2011 9:55am by Puremallace
#30 Dec 20 2011 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Puremallace wrote:
Here is Huttball summary...

grab ball
put up shield..absorb all damage
have person stand on other platform
throw the ball
they put up their shield
run down ramp..while shield absorbs everything
score

Yes so complicated. Like I said I saw a pre made of THREE people utterly dominate another team.

Calthine wrote:
Well, here's the early review: I'll have lots of time for my games, as I'm a SWTOR widow!


What does this mean?

Edited, Dec 20th 2011 9:55am by Puremallace

It means that she gets to play whatever she wants while her hubby is lost in a galaxy far, far away?
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#31 Dec 20 2011 at 10:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Puremallace wrote:

Calthine wrote:
Well, here's the early review: I'll have lots of time for my games, as I'm a SWTOR widow!


What does this mean?



You've never heard the term "Game Widow"? That's when your spouse is so immersed in a game that you might as well be single :)
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#32 Dec 20 2011 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Calthine wrote:


You've never heard the term "Game Widow"? That's when your spouse is so immersed in a game that you might as well be single :)


yeah that would never happen to me. Mine is hooked on facebook games. She will ask me what I am fighting every once and awhile

Edited, Dec 20th 2011 11:42am by Puremallace
#33 Jan 21 2012 at 4:43 PM Rating: Default
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Calthine wrote:
Puremallace wrote:

Calthine wrote:
Well, here's the early review: I'll have lots of time for my games, as I'm a SWTOR widow!


What does this mean?



You've never heard the term "Game Widow"? That's when your spouse is so immersed in a game that you might as well be single :)


I showed the wife this one. Cracked me up today =)
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#34 Jan 22 2012 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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NECROLOLOLOL

Also, SW:ToR is definitely a good game. The MMO components work well, especially once they moved 50s into their own PvP bracket (at which point one-man-armies disappeared from sub-50 instanced PvP). The huge limiting factor for the game at the moment is without a doubt the number of bugs. None of them are game-breaking at this point, but they're all annoying.

The PvP is nothing new. I'd love it if Rift/WoW took SWToR's passing mechanism and integrated it into a PvP map, because IMHO both aforementioned games are superior in all other regards (excepting story).

Edited, Jan 22nd 2012 4:03pm by emallson
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#35 Jan 22 2012 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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emallson wrote:

The PvP is nothing new. I'd love it if Rift/WoW took SWToR's passing mechanism and integrated it into a PvP map, because IMHO both aforementioned games are superior in all other regards (excepting story).
]


TOR has been getting torn completely apart by the leech mmorpg pvp community as one of the worst systems in years. That is saying alot honestly. I mean I know most mmo pvp'rs are flat out hypocrites and will quit anyways, but they do have some valid points.

Really hoping one day we get a mmorpg that is quality that just leaves it out. As good as GW2 "might be" it just seems like a pvp game with pve sprinkled in. Derps calling 5 mans with no direct heals challenging end game are up there on the derpy scale.

Anyways Rift has obviously survived the TOR onslaught and come out with flying colors. Would realyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy love to find some of those TOR fans who predicted Rifts death and have like a VH1 "where are they now?" special.

TOR does prove one thing. If a IP is good people will give the game an ungodly amount of free passes before outright raging. TOR has some good effects on Rift because thanks to it we get to be Mercenaries in war fronts now and queue times will probably goto zeroishhhh.

The hilarious part is noone has mentioned WoW in a few weeks and probably won't until MOP drops in like 7 months lol. Watching WoW players in misery defending that is just funny to the point I want to cry.
#36 Jan 22 2012 at 11:11 PM Rating: Good
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TOR has definitely been having problems with its pvp lately. Bioware basically dropped a patch that made pvp a ridiculous waste of time for republic players. It was not a well-thought out decision and now they have an unbelievable amount of damage control to do because of it.

Any game will always have its diehard fans that will forgive any and every failure, it really has nothing to do with the IP the game is based on.

I'm not sure it's really possible to launch an MMO at this point that doesn't include pvp. I believe the last one that attempted it was FFXIV. That didn't do so well, though not really because of the lack of pvp-mostly it was just hilariously bad in every conceivable way (and even IT has its diehard fans... point proven)
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#37 Jan 23 2012 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Puremallace wrote:
emallson wrote:

The PvP is nothing new. I'd love it if Rift/WoW took SWToR's passing mechanism and integrated it into a PvP map, because IMHO both aforementioned games are superior in all other regards (excepting story).
]


TOR has been getting torn completely apart by the leech mmorpg pvp community as one of the worst systems in years. That is saying alot honestly. I mean I know most mmo pvp'rs are flat out hypocrites and will quit anyways, but they do have some valid points.

Really hoping one day we get a mmorpg that is quality that just leaves it out. As good as GW2 "might be" it just seems like a pvp game with pve sprinkled in. Derps calling 5 mans with no direct heals challenging end game are up there on the derpy scale.

Anyways Rift has obviously survived the TOR onslaught and come out with flying colors. Would realyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy love to find some of those TOR fans who predicted Rifts death and have like a VH1 "where are they now?" special.

TOR does prove one thing. If a IP is good people will give the game an ungodly amount of free passes before outright raging. TOR has some good effects on Rift because thanks to it we get to be Mercenaries in war fronts now and queue times will probably goto zeroishhhh.

The hilarious part is noone has mentioned WoW in a few weeks and probably won't until MOP drops in like 7 months lol. Watching WoW players in misery defending that is just funny to the point I want to cry.


The PvP would be significantly better if there weren't an ungodly lag* problem half the time someone switches altitudes (which happens a lot with the number of knockbacks/grabs that are flying around). The lag problems result in the appearance of a player running in place for 2-3 seconds after switching altitudes, at which point they appear in a different location. This makes playing a melee class a real pain in the *** sometimes, because your quarry will switch platforms and be effectively invisible for a few seconds. (*Note: visual lag only, nobody is really lagging out)

Don't get me wrong though, if you want to play TOR as another KotOR it is a more than worthy successor. Great game. If you play for PvP though, you'll be disappointed. I haven't done much with instances other than rolling them with RL mates (they're pretty obviously tuned for people who haven't had years of experience running dungeons; not that that is a bad thing).

At this point it is still WoW and Rift vying for the top spot among MMOs. I am 90% sure that GW2 will not change that. It won't be another TOR (which will likely be around 250k active subs in four months), but it won't be a major contender.

All of the issues that I have with WoW atm are technical. The game itself is still good provided your class of choice doesn't end up with the short end of the bugfix stick.

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TOR has definitely been having problems with its pvp lately. Bioware basically dropped a patch that made pvp a ridiculous waste of time for republic players. It was not a well-thought out decision and now they have an unbelievable amount of damage control to do because of it.

Any game will always have its diehard fans that will forgive any and every failure, it really has nothing to do with the IP the game is based on.

I'm not sure it's really possible to launch an MMO at this point that doesn't include pvp. I believe the last one that attempted it was FFXIV. That didn't do so well, though not really because of the lack of pvp-mostly it was just hilariously bad in every conceivable way (and even IT has its diehard fans... point proven)


I haven't even reached Ilum yet. The Warzone PvP was unaffected by that change afaik.

I have to say, though, the crafting system for TOR is really nice. It wouldn't work in Rift without quite a bit of work, but it is effectively an RNG mat vendor. (Click button for Grade 6 Scavenged Metal, 35-45m later companion shows up with a bunch of mats) This may sound like a small thing (and it is), but it is nonetheless something that I would like to show up in other games.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2012 7:21pm by emallson
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#38 Jan 23 2012 at 6:31 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I haven't even reached Ilum yet. The Warzone PvP was unaffected by that change afaik.


You're right insofar as the change doesn't directly affect warzones. However when you broaden your scope a bit you'll see that the sudden appearance of mass quantities of top-level pvp gear on only one faction DOES impact warzone pvp in a negative way.

The mission system is interesting. On the one hand you don't get anything like a dependable supply of mats, but on the other hand I can run SWTOR on my other monitor and send 5 guys out to harvest money for me while I'm raiding Smiley: wink
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#39 Jan 23 2012 at 8:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
I haven't even reached Ilum yet. The Warzone PvP was unaffected by that change afaik.


You're right insofar as the change doesn't directly affect warzones. However when you broaden your scope a bit you'll see that the sudden appearance of mass quantities of top-level pvp gear on only one faction DOES impact warzone pvp in a negative way.

The mission system is interesting. On the one hand you don't get anything like a dependable supply of mats, but on the other hand I can run SWTOR on my other monitor and send 5 guys out to harvest money for me while I'm raiding Smiley: wink

I hadn't even thought about level 50 warzones. Oops.
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#40 Jan 23 2012 at 11:37 PM Rating: Decent
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emallson wrote:

I have to say, though, the crafting system for TOR is really nice. It wouldn't work in Rift without quite a bit of work, but it is effectively an RNG mat vendor. (Click button for Grade 6 Scavenged Metal, 35-45m later companion shows up with a bunch of mats) This may sound like a small thing (and it is), but it is nonetheless something that I would like to show up in other games.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2012 7:21pm by emallson


I am not in favor of more features that turn mmorpgs into lobby based games. If that catches on it will be a sad day for mmo's..

There is a cold chance in **** it would ever work in WoW or Rift because of the way resource nodes alone work. One of the bigger reasons TOR is not going to do well in the end is the feeling that the world is dead....honestly WoW will win this because people will ask ..Where would I rather afk at? In a republic hub or Stormwind?

I am sad they took this dead world approach they did when signs clearly point to getting people out of the city. Right now WoW is in a very weak state because the old technology is showing bad right now. I for some reason am starting to believe it is just beyond Blizzard to give fast new content. The game is just that old.

GW2 can have a impact, but alot of their stuff is based on CORPG concepts. The pvp is a definite plus for that game, but the entire pve system literally makes no sense and only works if we happen to invent Quantum computers in the next few months.

It is like pure single player rpg concepts in a mmorpg. This idea works in Skyrim because when I kill a mob it stays dead, but in a mmorpg this would make people utterly rage or the concept of no instanced raiding. Pvp guilds will love GW2 because it is a big e-peen race, but wtf is the point of pve guilds? If it were not B2P it would fail imo.

Edited, Jan 24th 2012 12:38am by Puremallace
#41 Jan 24 2012 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Puremallace wrote:
emallson wrote:

I have to say, though, the crafting system for TOR is really nice. It wouldn't work in Rift without quite a bit of work, but it is effectively an RNG mat vendor. (Click button for Grade 6 Scavenged Metal, 35-45m later companion shows up with a bunch of mats) This may sound like a small thing (and it is), but it is nonetheless something that I would like to show up in other games.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2012 7:21pm by emallson


I am not in favor of more features that turn mmorpgs into lobby based games. If that catches on it will be a sad day for mmo's..

There is a cold chance in **** it would ever work in WoW or Rift because of the way resource nodes alone work. One of the bigger reasons TOR is not going to do well in the end is the feeling that the world is dead....honestly WoW will win this because people will ask ..Where would I rather afk at? In a republic hub or Stormwind?

I am sad they took this dead world approach they did when signs clearly point to getting people out of the city. Right now WoW is in a very weak state because the old technology is showing bad right now. I for some reason am starting to believe it is just beyond Blizzard to give fast new content. The game is just that old.

GW2 can have a impact, but alot of their stuff is based on CORPG concepts. The pvp is a definite plus for that game, but the entire pve system literally makes no sense and only works if we happen to invent Quantum computers in the next few months.

It is like pure single player rpg concepts in a mmorpg. This idea works in Skyrim because when I kill a mob it stays dead, but in a mmorpg this would make people utterly rage or the concept of no instanced raiding. Pvp guilds will love GW2 because it is a big e-peen race, but wtf is the point of pve guilds? If it were not B2P it would fail imo.

Edited, Jan 24th 2012 12:38am by Puremallace


Farming is inarguably the least interesting component of MMORPGs, and I am absolutely a proponent of anything that lets me do less of it. You assume that nothing would replace farming in the open world in the absence of nodes to hit. That would not necessarily be the case.

WoW and Rift suffer from the 'dead world' feeling as much as TOR imo. Very, very rarely did I run into someone levelling in either game after the initial rush. It is now just barely over a month since TOR opened and it feels exactly the same. The capped players sit in the city and the non-capped players avoid each other as much as possible in the open world (because you'd be waiting on respawns with friendlies around, and getting into fights with enemies around).

More needs to be done across the board to get people to go out into the world and stay there. Farming nodes doesn't do that. I farm up what I need and then GTFO. Daily Rifts don't do that. People finish the Rift and then GTFO. I could go on, but you get the idea.

Moving hubs out into the world doesn't work because people just hang out at whatever hub happens to have the easiest access to everything else. (Take WoW as an example: In Vanilla Ironforge had the best access to endgame content, so it was the 'capital' of the alliance. BC was Shatt, WotLK was Dal, Cata is SW. The players follow the most efficient route.)

Providing constant, fun, challenging content out in the open world would also be a major way to get people to stay out there. I haven't talked to very many people that call doing the daily raid rift 'fun'. Most do it because of the 'free' lewtz.

Ember Isle was a very, very good step forward in that last regard. Facing those 52s was challenging without raid gear to use. My guild's raid leader said that it was pretty easy on his main (but not faceroll), and hard as **** on his alt in a mix of greens and blues (which is where the majority of the playerbase will be found).

The true reason that all current MMOs suffer from the dead-world syndrome is because they all focus on instanced combat. Rift has it's rifts in the world, yet they are not anywhere close to the focus of endgame progression. Getting an endgame rift is perceived as a bonus, not a requirement and certainly not the primary progression path. If Rifts were the primary mode of progression, we'd see far more people in the world and people proclaiming that the only way to progress is through Rifts (no matter how untrue that may be).

This comes back to efficiency. Players want to get things done with the least work necessary. This is why so many exploited the PvP rifts and why so many idle in cities in queues. In the case of the PvP rifts, it was far and away the fastest method of obtaining R8. In the case of the queues, it is no faster to queue in the city than the world, but if you are in the city you can be doing other tasks while in the queue.

Removing queues would also not solve the problem because they are merely a symptom. If there were no queues, people spam General and Trade looking for group (notably, few spam the LFG channels) and then run as fast as they can to the instance where they are safely locked away from all players outside their group. Taking five minutes to take the nearest port and run into the instance doesn't get people to stay in the world, they still get out of it as fast as they can.

TL;DR: All current leading MMOs suffer from the dead world syndrome because there simply is no incentive to be out there very long. The focus of endgame content is squarely on instanced combat. The most efficient way to progress in the endgame is to sit in the city in a queue.
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#42 Jan 24 2012 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Well we are about to see if this concept of open world being your end game actually works in GW2. I seriously doubt it will work by removing instanced raid content which is basically removing the carrot.
#43 Jan 24 2012 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
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Unfortunately we also can't just remove instanced content and say GG. Older games did things like this and the result was guilds camping on top of each other for world bosses. The one with the best bot got to do the content while the other guilds tried to grief them, kill them, or steal the boss in some other way.
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#44 Jan 24 2012 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Unfortunately we also can't just remove instanced content and say GG. Older games did things like this and the result was guilds camping on top of each other for world bosses. The one with the best bot got to do the content while the other guilds tried to grief them, kill them, or steal the boss in some other way.

Agreed, that is not the solution. The ideal place is somewhere inbetween. There needs to be a respectable amount of rewarding solo/small group content out in the open world, which no MMO atm has.
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#45 Jan 24 2012 at 5:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Puremallace wrote:
SWTOR simply proves how much the mmorpg community does not care about a good quality made MMORPG.


IMO it just proves how people have different tastes, and there's not one perfect game to rule them all.
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#46 Jan 24 2012 at 6:54 PM Rating: Decent
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emallson wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Unfortunately we also can't just remove instanced content and say GG. Older games did things like this and the result was guilds camping on top of each other for world bosses. The one with the best bot got to do the content while the other guilds tried to grief them, kill them, or steal the boss in some other way.

Agreed, that is not the solution. The ideal place is somewhere inbetween. There needs to be a respectable amount of rewarding solo/small group content out in the open world, which no MMO atm has.


I would surely argue Rift is **** closer then anyone has ever been. I can get a full tier 1 raid set from doing just zone events. Now if the RNG gods bless me I get geared faster doing instanced raids, but if you got my luck doing open world content is actually faster.

If Trion was not doing something right here, then people would be skipping Ember Isle raids yet the QQ which is too funny btw is that there are so many people it lags the server.
#47 Jan 24 2012 at 9:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Im liking tor. I dont understand all the hate towards it. Maybe its because im only 32, but im really liking the quests and the flashpoints. I think I may sub to it for another month or two.
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#48 Jan 24 2012 at 10:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Rajadog20 wrote:
Im liking tor. I dont understand all the hate towards it. Maybe its because im only 32, but im really liking the quests and the flashpoints. I think I may sub to it for another month or two.


I would not say there is a hate for it atleast from people like me, but their is a serious **** dislike for a game based on ideas and implementation that would have worked back in 2007.

You mean to tell me a start up company called Trion understands the concept of how to put level restrictions on a item while people have been exploiting it for a month on Ilum. Bioware just seems like inept developers.

You honestly can not ask for a more perfect set of circumstances to launch a game and they one thing after another just ***** it up. These guys had a chance to utterly GUTTTT WoW of a ton of their subs. In the long run they have really not brought sweeping changes to the genre.

Yeah voice overs are great, but TOR cost TWO HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS to make....just for reference Rift cost 50million. That is probably 100+ million on voice overs. That take insanity to a new level. No company will EVER drop that kind of cash on voice overs ever again. It is going to take TOR years to make that up. Then you have to ask WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF did they spend the money on.

I would kill to see break down of where the money went. How the **** you just skip a customizable UI in development is just retarded. Also the EXTREME heavy abuse of instancing takes stupidity to a whole new level. Personnel instances ok concept to explain storyline stuff...but multiple zone instances is dumb.

Edited, Jan 24th 2012 11:08pm by Puremallace
#49 Jan 24 2012 at 10:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Puremallace wrote:
emallson wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Unfortunately we also can't just remove instanced content and say GG. Older games did things like this and the result was guilds camping on top of each other for world bosses. The one with the best bot got to do the content while the other guilds tried to grief them, kill them, or steal the boss in some other way.

Agreed, that is not the solution. The ideal place is somewhere inbetween. There needs to be a respectable amount of rewarding solo/small group content out in the open world, which no MMO atm has.


I would surely argue Rift is **** closer then anyone has ever been. I can get a full tier 1 raid set from doing just zone events. Now if the RNG gods bless me I get geared faster doing instanced raids, but if you got my luck doing open world content is actually faster.

If Trion was not doing something right here, then people would be skipping Ember Isle raids yet the QQ which is too funny btw is that there are so many people it lags the server.

Rift is better, yes, but getting full tier 1 from zone events alone would be a monumental and extremely protracted effort. When I say reward I mean it in both senses of the word: mental and 'physical'.

The mental reward is the sense of challenge and the resulting 'reward' of knowing that you just did something hard. Killing mobs in the world isn't hard. Completing zone events is generally not hard, though that depends on how many other people are in the zone at the time (and is arguably not solo content, although you can do it 'without a group', you are cooperating with a group whether or not you are communicating with them).

The 'physical' reward is pretty much just the gear (be it costume gear or normal gear).

The mental reward is significantly more important, and TOR actually does this better than Rift. TOR has four classifications of mobs: Weak, Strong, Elite, and Champion (You could count bosses as a fifth class, but the only difference between them and Champion-class mobs is that Bosses have a CC immunity buff). Strong mobs are crawling all over the place, and will eat you alive if you aren't careful. Elites are mobs that you generally must fight one-on-one unless you're with a group.

These elites are pretty much the same as Rift's, but the Strongs are the big thing going for it. They provide a (mostly optional) challenge that is also greatly rewarding 'physically' (Strong mobs give double the XP of Weak, in addition to more loot). It feels really, really good to take on a group of four strong enemies and come out of it with less than 1% of your HP remaining after blowing cooldowns and potions medpacks.

Rajadog20 wrote:
Im liking tor. I dont understand all the hate towards it. Maybe its because im only 32, but im really liking the quests and the flashpoints. I think I may sub to it for another month or two.

I've gotten to 36 so far and I'm thinking the same. If they get some of the PvP bugs worked out, I may sub longer. It depends on how engaging the other class stories are.

As for why TOR got away with so many bugs: the reason is the same as that for which Skyrim got away with so many and such a horrible UI. Namely, the game (while nothing new in itself) was otherwise executed well enough that people could overlook it. Old ideas executed well are better than new ideas executed poorly.

Edited, Jan 24th 2012 11:56pm by emallson
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