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Gating mechanics for Rift are getting insaneFollow

#1 Mar 30 2012 at 4:50 PM Rating: Decent
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So just verified HIT requirement for Infernal Dawn is 400 and Toughness requirement is 250. I know Trion can not be blind and must see how many guilds have completed HK and it can not be that high. I am on Deepwood and most guilds there are 5/11 with very very few at 11/11.

There is a honest chance alot of the Rift playerbase will not see the inside of Infernal Dawn until sometime in October if not later due to the painful gear progression. I really do not like where this is heading. There are not that many hardcore raiders playing Rift and Trion seems to be appealing to a niche raiding audience that does not even play the game.

Who are they making these things for? It is obviously not the current playerbase because even "Rift hardcore" guilds will admit they are casual in comparison to WoW guilds. Where is this content aimed at? Most of us will only read about Infernal Dawn or see videos. Lead dev said you pretty much have to have HK on farm to even make it past the first real boss and you can maybe farm some mini bosses.

Is Trion attempting to get disgruntled super hardcore raiders from WoW? There has been no attempt to implement tier 2 raid rifts dailies and the lures themselves are extremely gated with Glorified requirements to even get them. 1.8 pts has no mention at all of Tier 2 Raid planar gear.

Edited, Mar 30th 2012 6:51pm by Puremallace
#2 Mar 30 2012 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree. I am a casual player and LOVE this game. I was a hard core raider in WoW & played that game since it was in beta. I love that Rift allows for many play styles and amount of time to spend. I love that I can jump on and spend 15 minutes that is not grinding and feel like I've had a good time.

HOWEVER! I agree 100% with you. I am decently geared and in a great guild but we seem to be stalled on 1/11 of HK. Not because we don't want to go forward. Not because my guild doesn't have good players. Just the amount of time we have to set aside, getting everyone geared, etc. Or finding another guild that has the same time during the week they are available and who has equal gearing.

I understand end game. I do. As I said, I was hard core WoW raider there near the end. But one of the things that I felt Rift and Trion really embodied a year ago was that it was a game for everyone. That progression would make sense and be obtainable by even the most casual player. It makes me sad to see that seeming to go by the wayside.

I'm, of course, not willing to call it quits. But it does give me some concern since I AM at end game but don't have hours on end to farm HK to get to Infernal Dawn. My very humble opinion is that Trion got Rift to where it is by listening to it's current player base. Maybe it's time they listen a little harder to those who are at this higher level.
#3 Mar 30 2012 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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They are going to have to prove me wrong here because I am not seeing. This is not WoW where everyone I inspected was wearing Ulduar gear and were bored out of their minds waiting for the next tier. Everyone I inspect and every guild macro I see says 6/11...9/11 or 2/11. It is extremely rare you see 11/11 not followed by you requiring full HK and a few planar attunements max'd out.

Who is the content designed for because it is not for me? The solution is not to wait longer to release it, but to gate it better. They have to understand what gating means because certain bosses have resist requirements, dps checks, hit/toughness requirement.

I honestly pity people starting this game hoping to get into end game raiding. You have no chance of a guild wasting that much time to catch you up to 400 hit to be useful. Do they just not want new people to join the game?

I am not saying making a looking for raid feature or nerf everything to high ****, but there should be a gear set with tier 2 raid planar set on the pts right now that people can earn at a reasonable rate and 1 piece every 6 weeks is not reasonable.

http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-general-discussions/dungeons-raids/308908-infernal-marks-ascension-will-available-via-random-dungeons-weeklies.html#post3705422

Read this non sense. These guys are mad they took HK marks from 1 to 2 on the LFG tool feature. So what do the math

50 for the boots = 7 x2 =14 marks a week. So 3 1/2 weeks for the boots. Do the math against the other items. You are looking at months for the full set and now we are told you basically need legionaries to be useful. Do these guys think they are in the majority because every single mmo trend across the board proves they are not.
#4 Mar 30 2012 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
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PvE gating is trivial compared to PvP gating. If people aren't through HK, why would they be expecting to hop into ID? It's called progression for a reason. And I expect it won't be long before Trion adds the "easy entry" crafted gear options that will allow people to bypass all pre-HK raids, but that doesn't mean they're entitled to a free pass directly into ID. And if players have the skill to progress, it doesn't take long.

Compare that to the PvP grind where skill is a non-factor and it's all based on time spent. You can be the best PvPer that ever pee-vee'd a pee and you're still looking at dozens of hours of soul sucking grinding in warfronts at 50 to reach a competitive footing.

PvE gating. Pffffft.
#5 Mar 30 2012 at 10:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:


Compare that to the PvP grind where skill is a non-factor and it's all based on time spent. You can be the best PvPer that ever pee-vee'd a pee and you're still looking at dozens of hours of soul sucking grinding in warfronts at 50 to reach a competitive footing.

PvE gating. Pffffft.


We have years of proof as to why this type of gating simply does not. It will become UNGODLY obvious once GW2 comes out and people drop guild and you have to replace them. All I see in 1.8 is some instanced raiding added and instant adventure on Ember Isle literally nobody will do because the rewards for Inscribed are garbage right now compared to drops from MDD.

Now you have the real possibility of them releasing a tier 3 10man in 1.9, but alot crap ton of people have not made it past 2/4 in ROTP much less even entered the instant. The gating mechanics right now are hardcore in a mmorpg community not built for it. Not sure if you are noticing, but Rift has leveled out on population. They are not adding servers or closing them.

Ever since Zor left Rift it has become almost all instanced. They have not even bothered to add Air, Water, life, or death tier 2 raid rifts into the game. It is like they have completely given up.

Edited, Mar 31st 2012 12:57am by Puremallace
#6 Mar 30 2012 at 11:25 PM Rating: Good
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PvP may be its own grind, but let's not fool ourselves: Progressing in PvP isn't reliant on 19 other people. More and competent people help you advance more quickly, yes, but you're also getting favor and prestige alongside your failures. Can't kill that PvE boss? Too bad, eat the soul heal fee.

Perhaps the real question lies in this: How often must one repeat an activity (and succeed) before they should be considered ready for the next activity higher up the ladder? Using the earlier boot example at 14 marks a week, 50 needed, it's 3.5 weeks for one item. I, for one, expect people to have souls, of which come limits and a craving for variety in their play. This gets even more complicated when you find people unwilling to backtrack solely for your benefit if them letting you leech isn't an option. 20-man content also carries its flaws of too few rewards going around (if raid rifts are any indication at 3-4 likely junk items) when you do complete a given fight.

I'll join the wagon in being sad about seemingly no T2 planar gear. Trion's also making me feel all FFXI-y in catering to a vocal minority alongside emphasizing punishing grinds. Perhaps I should be more glad Diablo III is on the horizon, as with the perk of not having to pay a monthly fee, it will be more pick-up-and-play friendly even if playing in **** or Inferno requires time spent grinding gear in prior difficulties.
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#7 Mar 31 2012 at 12:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Puremallace wrote:
We have years of proof as to why this type of gating simply does not. It will become UNGODLY obvious once GW2 comes out and people drop guild and you have to replace them. All I see in 1.8 is some instanced raiding added and instant adventure on Ember Isle literally nobody will do because the rewards for Inscribed are garbage right now compared to drops from MDD.

Now you have the real possibility of them releasing a tier 3 10man in 1.9, but alot crap ton of people have not made it past 2/4 in ROTP much less even entered the instant. The gating mechanics right now are hardcore in a mmorpg community not built for it. Not sure if you are noticing, but Rift has leveled out on population. They are not adding servers or closing them.

Ever since Zor left Rift it has become almost all instanced. They have not even bothered to add Air, Water, life, or death tier 2 raid rifts into the game. It is like they have completely given up.


How did that go from a rant about gating to a rant about instancing? What does it matter if it's instanced or not? Raid rifts were another one of those things that were interesting in concept, dull in implementation. I did my share of them at launch (even got shard first death rift raid). It's just a big bucket of meh.

Seriha wrote:
PvP may be its own grind, but let's not fool ourselves: Progressing in PvP isn't reliant on 19 other people. More and competent people help you advance more quickly, yes, but you're also getting favor and prestige alongside your failures. Can't kill that PvE boss? Too bad, eat the soul heal fee.


The difference is, if you're good, you progress quickly through PvE content. Can't kill that PvE boss? Get better. That's all there is to it. When you're better, and everyone else in your group is better, you win. gg. If you don't get better, you wait for the content to be nerfed and the gear gating on the bottom end to be relaxed and then you go git 'er dun. PvP gating based on time spent, as I said, means it doesn't matter how "good" you are. Winning earns more than losing, but even winning every match leaves a monumental grind that only exists because the devs made it that way. With the way accolades are set up, the MM rogue standing in the back spamming Fan Out and amassing all kinds of ninja KBs will earn more favor and prestige from accolades than the poor ******* (see also: people like me) pressuring the enemy healers so the MM can actually ninja the KBs in the first place.

Edit: PvE content also encourages static grouping (ie. raiding guilds). Warfronts discourage it with extended queue times because the carebears cried that premades ruined their solo-mentality good time.

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Perhaps the real question lies in this: How often must one repeat an activity (and succeed) before they should be considered ready for the next activity higher up the ladder? Using the earlier boot example at 14 marks a week, 50 needed, it's 3.5 weeks for one item. I, for one, expect people to have souls, of which come limits and a craving for variety in their play. This gets even more complicated when you find people unwilling to backtrack solely for your benefit if them letting you leech isn't an option. 20-man content also carries its flaws of too few rewards going around (if raid rifts are any indication at 3-4 likely junk items) when you do complete a given fight.


Except that it's not 3.5 weeks if you're succeeding in the raid content. You're not supposed to be farming top tier raid gear in expert dungeons. The dungeons are just a supplement. If you're raiding, you're also earning marks from boss kills. It was the same thing in WoW. New gear comes out, the non-raiders rage about how much it costs to buy, and the raiders gobble it up like candy because that's who it's intended for.

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I'll join the wagon in being sad about seemingly no T2 planar gear. Trion's also making me feel all FFXI-y in catering to a vocal minority alongside emphasizing punishing grinds. Perhaps I should be more glad Diablo III is on the horizon, as with the perk of not having to pay a monthly fee, it will be more pick-up-and-play friendly even if playing in **** or Inferno requires time spent grinding gear in prior difficulties.


Trion isn't catering to the vocal minority. The vocal minority are the ones fully against easing entry as each new tier of content is added. They're the ones that would have you earning no greater marks from dungeons at all, because greater marks are for HK gear and HK is for progressed raiders, not dungeon runners.

I just canceled my Rift sub tonight because I'm more than burnt out on the PvP grind and this is the third time it has happened in the last year. It's a great game with great developers but the PvP grind is beyond awful. I'm not interested in PvE. Rift is a PvE-centric game. I don't have to be mad at Trion over it. They made the game that they made, they're good at what they do, and that's all they need to be. For me to enjoy a game, I need to find one that focuses on the things I'm most interested in and as far as games on the horizon, GW2 looks to be my best bet at this point.

Edited, Mar 30th 2012 11:26pm by Aurelius
#8 Mar 31 2012 at 2:16 AM Rating: Good
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Perhaps from the pvp-centric point, yes, finding a better game would be the better deal. To me, as someone not a pvp fan, the game itself didn't seem too built around the premise, sort of like how the actual rift mechanics seem tacked on to the zones post-productions.

Back to what I was harping on, though. There's no guarantee content will be eased up, let alone in a timely manner. Trion didn't adjust the costs of plain Marks gear when they added HK stuff, and you're not getting Marks from expert PUGs if you don't have your daily bonuses. If you're like me and rarely see pick-up GSBs (or when you do, they only want people with completion achievements), you're stuck at a glacier's pace even getting up to an old standard.

Now, Trion could adjust costs like I implied earlier, or more readily throw out the currency to get closer to their current standard. Doing neither means people will still have grind the older stuff whether they need to or not in order to better outfit enough bodies to take on the later stuff. Crafted gear may fill in the gaps depending on rarity, but just looking at all the new ingredients for what's been listed so far, it's sounding like that stuff will be raid guild only until they're better geared, at which point the excess materials will slowly trickle out at obscene prices your casual player will unlikely even be able to afford.

The alternative to that, then, is the allowance of planar gear being upgraded, since it exchanges man hour or cash requirements with sheer individual effort for IS acquisition. I don't mind if subsequent upgrades from current are one are two steps, but ideally they should come close to HK equivalents. This will give the player a bit more flexibility to jump into the new content if they do find themselves with the chance to, instead of not even bothering to ask since they know they're x months behind on the treadmill.

Like you with pvp, if a pve'er feels their subscription money is not providing them with progressive content, they have two options: ***** or Quit. Quitting doesn't help Trion's bottom line, but listening to more reasonable requests should be paramount to customer retention. Right now, my warrior's progress is fairly stagnant since I am limited to PUG dailies. I'm like 3 dings away from finishing the PvP plane and have my earth T2 maxed. Until T3 rolls around, all I've got going for me is grinding even more EXP and IS, the latter seemingly not getting new stuff to spend toward. And if I can't frequently get into raid content enough as is, why should I even bother throwing the IS I do have into situational sigils like those emphasizing a particular resist? I'm only p20 on the pvp end. I, too, dislike how the favor system doesn't... well, favor warriors at present, even going beyond class issues that make it the 4th place calling in need of a healer tethered to their ****. Still, I can't PUG dungeons endlessly and build my character at present. I could PUG pvp and both rank up and get better gear. Sure, I'd hit the same wall eventually, but it's not like pvp is rocking "greater favor" or the like in need of situational acquisition at the moment. There's also no real lock out like with master mode dungeons. **** like that is a gate and I have never been a fan of any game telling me when I can and can't do something.
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#9 Mar 31 2012 at 8:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Perhaps from the pvp-centric point, yes, finding a better game would be the better deal. To me, as someone not a pvp fan, the game itself didn't seem too built around the premise, sort of like how the actual rift mechanics seem tacked on to the zones post-productions.


I agree that Rift wasn't built around PvP, and that's why I'm not denouncing Trion for the fact I don't enjoy it. I give them full credit for their successes and move on to something that might be more suited to my personal preferences.

Quote:
Back to what I was harping on, though. There's no guarantee content will be eased up, let alone in a timely manner. Trion didn't adjust the costs of plain Marks gear when they added HK stuff, and you're not getting Marks from expert PUGs if you don't have your daily bonuses. If you're like me and rarely see pick-up GSBs (or when you do, they only want people with completion achievements), you're stuck at a glacier's pace even getting up to an old standard.


They didn't adjust the mark costs for gear when they added HK stuff, but they did eventually add a ton of crafted options intended to ease entry into HK. They'll no doubt do something similar for ID at some point.

I understand that even people who aren't in raiding guilds like to have the option to continue progressing their gear beyond a certain point. I'm fine with that. The gear doesn't all have to come from marks.
#10 Mar 31 2012 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
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So just verified HIT requirement for Infernal Dawn is 400 and Toughness requirement is 250. I know Trion can not be blind and must see how many guilds have completed HK and it can not be that high. I am on Deepwood and most guilds there are 5/11 with very very few at 11/11.
hit requirements? seriously? if u cant hit 400 with only being 5/11 in hk, somethings wrong. my mage is only 4/11 and sitting at 389. i could EASILY hit 400 with runes at that point
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And I expect it won't be long before Trion adds the "easy entry" crafted gear options that will allow people to bypass all pre-HK raids, but that doesn't mean they're entitled to a free pass directly into ID. And if players have the skill to progress, it doesn't take long.
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but they did eventually add a ton of crafted options intended to ease entry into HK. They'll no doubt do something similar for ID at some point.
they are. a guildie posted this link in my guilds forums. not sure where ull get some of the items for the things tho. http://riftnerd.com/reports/new-1-8-profession-recipes-on-the-pts/


Edited, Mar 31st 2012 3:30pm by joshiki
#11 Apr 01 2012 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
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joshiki wrote:
they are. a guildie posted this link in my guilds forums. not sure where ull get some of the items for the things tho. http://riftnerd.com/reports/new-1-8-profession-recipes-on-the-pts/



Those crafting recipes are useless to people not killing ID bosses where the ingredient drops from. My big thing is I want a serious attempt at making tier 2 raids sets from planar content. If they do not do this then what makes Rift different from WoW honestly?

If the good gear is only from instanced content there is no difference to me. You already have people only logging on to do raids, then logging off. As this goes on what is the point of Instant Adventures of Zone events? They go from actually being useful to pure fluff no one will do.

They can add 20man raiding, but give alternatives outside of grinding instanced content to being able to do it. If they are not careful we will end up with World of Queuecraft where there is literally no point at all in leaving the cities.

If you have tier planar gear that keeps up with the previous content..Example Tier 2 planar raid gear releases when they release the tier 3 instanced content. If they do that then even 7 years from now people will want to do Stillmoor events.


Edited, Apr 1st 2012 8:19pm by Puremallace
#12 Apr 02 2012 at 2:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Puremallace wrote:
joshiki wrote:
they are. a guildie posted this link in my guilds forums. not sure where ull get some of the items for the things tho. http://riftnerd.com/reports/new-1-8-profession-recipes-on-the-pts/



Those crafting recipes are useless to people not killing ID bosses where the ingredient drops from. My big thing is I want a serious attempt at making tier 2 raids sets from planar content. If they do not do this then what makes Rift different from WoW honestly?


They're better off waiting to release t2 equivalent gear on planar goods vendors until after ID has been out for a while.

I don't know why you might have thought they'd do things differently from the way they're doing them. There's nothing about 1.8's itemization that is surprising to me. If you want gear that lets you step into the new raid content when it launches then you need to put on your big boy pants and go earn that gear in the content where it currently drops. If you want gear to progress your character for the sake of saying your character is progressing, then you need to wait your turn behind the people who will progress their characters based on accomplishment (ie. success in the content) as opposed to time spent (ie. grinding planar currency.)
#13 Apr 02 2012 at 9:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:




They're better off waiting to release t2 equivalent gear on planar goods vendors until after ID has been out for a while.



The preferred method would be this:
Same time ID comes out release the tier 2 raid planar gear.
. This automatically keeps world content extremely relevant.
. It gives people a way to earn gear without being forced into instanced content and you earn your way into ID

Then add in ID marks from LFG after atleast 10+ guilds have taken down Maelforge. It allows for a smooth progression. Something on the pts is just very off right now.

There are alot of people playing Rift who disagree'd with how Blizzard handled gear progression back in Sept 09' when they started handing out Tier 8 raid gear from repeat runs of Utgarde Keep.

When it comes to pvp gear there is no other way to do it in this model outside of something you see in WoW with Arenas or a rating style system where you have to earn it every time a new tier system came out. GW2 will pull this games pvp player base away without a doubt, but that is 3 servers lol

Something like WoW or TOR will take a bigger hit. I mean **** Aion is already going F2P because they know what is coming. Most of their legions are already eying Tera on release. I can REALLY see Trion looking at a few concepts in GW2 and maybe trying them out. WvWvW is basically "moving past the traditional faction based system in MMO's" <--How many time have you see Trion say this in the past month alone?
#14 Apr 02 2012 at 11:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Puremallace wrote:
The preferred method would be this:
Same time ID comes out release the tier 2 raid planar gear.
. This automatically keeps world content extremely relevant.
. It gives people a way to earn gear without being forced into instanced content and you earn your way into ID


Earning your way into ID is done by succeeding in HK, not grinding zone events and IA. If you can't handle HK, ID is going to shred you. If you just want to go sightseeing, form a raid group with a friend and zone into ID while your friend goes and does something else non-instanced. If you want to participate in ID, get through HK. It's not a complicated process.

Quote:
Then add in ID marks from LFG after atleast 10+ guilds have taken down Maelforge. It allows for a smooth progression. Something on the pts is just very off right now.

There are alot of people playing Rift who disagree'd with how Blizzard handled gear progression back in Sept 09' when they started handing out Tier 8 raid gear from repeat runs of Utgarde Keep.


Ya, and you're basically saying you want Trion to do the same thing. New tier comes out, just hand out the previous tier of gear so the bads who can't progress can still see the new content. That's not how it works. If anything, I would think people would be thankful that any kind of success is rewarded in Rift, because raiding and master mode dungeons are the only content that reward any noteworthy amount of skill. Everything else is the size of your zerg or how long you have to play, and that's not a basis upon which to be rewarding people with access to cutting edge progression raid content.

Quote:
When it comes to pvp gear there is no other way to do it in this model outside of something you see in WoW with Arenas or a rating style system where you have to earn it every time a new tier system came out. GW2 will pull this games pvp player base away without a doubt, but that is 3 servers lol

Something like WoW or TOR will take a bigger hit. I mean **** Aion is already going F2P because they know what is coming. Most of their legions are already eying Tera on release. I can REALLY see Trion looking at a few concepts in GW2 and maybe trying them out. WvWvW is basically "moving past the traditional faction based system in MMO's" <--How many time have you see Trion say this in the past month alone?


Trion could have simply eliminated gear from the level 50 PvP equation and built a reward system around titles and mounts and vanity gear. They would have lost a lot fewer people over the level 50 treadmill and they could have spent more time on adding meaningful content and less time tweaking and re-tweaking around gear-based power creep. They chose to do what they did, it has polarized the PvP community, and the chips will fall where they may. Trion will keep doing what they're doing or they'll make some changes. I have no ill will toward Trion over it. I've always been the one saying that you play it if you enjoy it or you go play something else without the QQ. I'm going to play something else. No QQ here.

c wut i did thar?
#15 Apr 03 2012 at 3:40 AM Rating: Good
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My beef with the whole "X player's time is more valuable than player Y's because X does Z and thus should be rewarded better" is it assumes everyone's ability to do Z is equal. It just plain isn't. It basically culminates to the rich getting richer because there are no alternatives for those who can't. Now, nobody's saying people who do ID shouldn't be on the bleeding edge, but being the old rusty razor isn't exactly much of a motivator, either.

I can't, in good faith, count the crafted gear due to its requirement to ID. People will need to be getting their currency from it. Until then, they'll be using those drops to outfit themselves until they do get what they're after. They'll be staying within their guilds for a long time, and as I've said before, the few that eventually do slip into the open market will more than likely be prohibitively expensive. Not everyone's swimming in platinum.
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#16 Apr 03 2012 at 7:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:

Trion could have simply eliminated gear from the level 50 PvP equation and built a reward system around titles and mounts and vanity gear. They would have lost a lot fewer people over the level 50 treadmill and they could have spent more time on adding meaningful content and less time tweaking and re-tweaking around gear-based power creep. They chose to do what they did, it has polarized the PvP community, and the chips will fall where they may. Trion will keep doing what they're doing or they'll make some changes. I have no ill will toward Trion over it. I've always been the one saying that you play it if you enjoy it or you go play something else without the QQ. I'm going to play something else. No QQ here.

c wut i did thar?


You need to stop acting like pvp'rs are all holier then now and know the path to a great MMO. Only thing I have seen them do for the past 7 years to tear down every mmo that has come out and stay loyal for 1 or 2 months. If it was not gear you guys were qq'n about it would be something else.

For some odd reason there are a large amount of people under the assumption GW2 has this magical immunity to pvp'rs qq'n like little girls. I am unsure how any devs appeals to them when they literally have no clue what they want. It mostly boils down that you want your e-peen to feel big by ganking someone who can not fight back.

You say you want meaningful pvp where what "I" do as the player affects "You" as the other player. That is called Aion where I could capture a fort and dramatically affect how you played the game. You say you wanted HEAVY consequences for dying in pvp. That is also called Aion where if I died as a general I could lose a weeks worth of work. You say you wanted heavy consequences in crafting and to be unique. That is called Aion where RNG ruled the world and if you had Fenris or Miragent you were special. Where is Aion now? Down to 4 servers because when confronted with a game that was literally based around pvp as the end game all the little WoW fans quit because it was too hardcore.

Trust me the people that have been playing that game and other Korean pvp games are heading to GW2 and they do not care if you cry and unsub because you get 20 v 1'd. They will laugh at you as they zerg you over and over again and when you cry on the forums they will tell you to bring your guild. So many themepark pvp hardcores are about to get a very serious reality check.

The Rift gearing system is the one major thing that makes this game different from WoW. If you remove that you had might as well afk in the main cities EXACTLY like you do in WoW and just ignore everything and everyone around you. Remove the open world incentive from the game and all you have is a lobby based instance game in my view.



Edited, Apr 3rd 2012 9:12am by Puremallace
#17 Apr 03 2012 at 8:23 AM Rating: Default
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Puremallace wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

Trion could have simply eliminated gear from the level 50 PvP equation and built a reward system around titles and mounts and vanity gear. They would have lost a lot fewer people over the level 50 treadmill and they could have spent more time on adding meaningful content and less time tweaking and re-tweaking around gear-based power creep. They chose to do what they did, it has polarized the PvP community, and the chips will fall where they may. Trion will keep doing what they're doing or they'll make some changes. I have no ill will toward Trion over it. I've always been the one saying that you play it if you enjoy it or you go play something else without the QQ. I'm going to play something else. No QQ here.

c wut i did thar?


You need to stop acting like pvp'rs are all holier then now and know the path to a great MMO. Only thing I have seen them do for the past 7 years to tear down every mmo that has come out and stay loyal for 1 or 2 months. If it was not gear you guys were qq'n about it would be something else.

For some odd reason there are a large amount of people under the assumption GW2 has this magical immunity to pvp'rs qq'n like little girls. I am unsure how any devs appeals to them when they literally have no clue what they want. It mostly boils down that you want your e-peen to feel big by ganking someone who can not fight back.

You say you want meaningful pvp where what "I" do as the player affects "You" as the other player. That is called Aion where I could capture a fort and dramatically affect how you played the game. You say you wanted HEAVY consequences for dying in pvp. That is also called Aion where if I died as a general I could lose a weeks worth of work. You say you wanted heavy consequences in crafting and to be unique. That is called Aion where RNG ruled the world and if you had Fenris or Miragent you were special. Where is Aion now? Down to 4 servers because when confronted with a game that was literally based around pvp as the end game all the little WoW fans quit because it was too hardcore.

Trust me the people that have been playing that game and other Korean pvp games are heading to GW2 and they do not care if you cry and unsub because you get 20 v 1'd. They will laugh at you as they zerg you over and over again and when you cry on the forums they will tell you to bring your guild. So many themepark pvp hardcores are about to get a very serious reality check.

The Rift gearing system is the one major thing that makes this game different from WoW. If you remove that you had might as well afk in the main cities EXACTLY like you do in WoW and just ignore everything and everyone around you. Remove the open world incentive from the game and all you have is a lobby based instance game in my view.



Edited, Apr 3rd 2012 9:12am by Puremallace


I couldn't help but laugh at your first paragraph. Sorry, but it's pretty pitiful.

As for Aion, it died because it was a grindfest. People reached the endgame, yea, but they were also turned off not only by the grind of getting there (which WAS significantly worse than it is now) and then reaching it only to find out that it, too was a very samey grind. Compare that to Rift, where at least you have some variety while levelling and even more variety available at the end game. Aion died because of lack of variety and focus on punishment for failure rather than reward for success.

PvPer =/= OMGDEATHSHOULDHAVESRSBSNSPENALTIES hardcore-wannabe. Stop equating them. I play almost exclusively for the PvP (with a bit of raiding on the side). That doesn't mean I want to lose all of my current Prestige towards the next rank, current gear, inventory contents or some other equally inane penalty that the pretend-hardcore kiddies come up with.

As for Rift's gearing vs WoW's gearing: what's the difference? You run the same content over and over with other players and you get your loot. Whoop-de-do. The carrot is what matters to most of the playerbase (sadly), and as soon as they obtain it they want another dangled in front of them. The only real difference is the capability in WoW to skip previous raid content (ie loss of progression).

People who talk about the loss of a sense of progression in WoW are both right and wrong. They are wrong because the loss of progression from raid to raid didn't cause any problems. They're right because the requirement of progression from raid to raid required more and more carrots to be produced.

Letting everyone bypass raids that they haven't completed is like letting me jump to level 30 or 40 or 50 without having ever quested (or dungeoned) my way there before. They have less 'relevant' content to play and therefore will get bored sooner. (They are so focused on the carrot that the idea of running the old content even when they don't need it doesn't occur to them).
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#18 Apr 03 2012 at 8:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
My beef with the whole "X player's time is more valuable than player Y's because X does Z and thus should be rewarded better" is it assumes everyone's ability to do Z is equal. It just plain isn't. It basically culminates to the rich getting richer because there are no alternatives for those who can't. Now, nobody's saying people who do ID shouldn't be on the bleeding edge, but being the old rusty razor isn't exactly much of a motivator, either.

I can't, in good faith, count the crafted gear due to its requirement to ID. People will need to be getting their currency from it. Until then, they'll be using those drops to outfit themselves until they do get what they're after. They'll be staying within their guilds for a long time, and as I've said before, the few that eventually do slip into the open market will more than likely be prohibitively expensive. Not everyone's swimming in platinum.


The idea isn't to keep the rewards away from you indefinitely. The point is to not trivialize the rewards by making them available to everyone from the start. People have been raiding HK for months. Some have it cleared and have been farming it for a while. Some are still struggling for regular clears. Some haven't cleared it at all but have progressed far enough to get enough gear to get a foot in the door with ID. So the new raid is released and those who have been adequately successful in the previous tier of content get to step right in to the new tier.

I understand the setup with the crafting mats is less than ideal. Last I checked, there are as many PvPers interested in the new seals as there are PvEers, and there is no PvP route to get them. You have to raid or you have to buy mats from raiders who are going to be charging an arm and a leg for them. It is what it is.

Puremallace wrote:
[
You need to stop acting like pvp'rs are all holier then now and know the path to a great MMO. Only thing I have seen them do for the past 7 years to tear down every mmo that has come out and stay loyal for 1 or 2 months. If it was not gear you guys were qq'n about it would be something else.

For some odd reason there are a large amount of people under the assumption GW2 has this magical immunity to pvp'rs qq'n like little girls. I am unsure how any devs appeals to them when they literally have no clue what they want. It mostly boils down that you want your e-peen to feel big by ganking someone who can not fight back.


Those would be...a lot of assumptions on your part. The people I talk to are enthusiastic about GW2 for the WvW aspect and the rankings in structured PvP. They like the idea of PvP with meaningful objectives. I didn't say anything at all about consequences for dying, much less heavy consequences.

The gear system in Rift is almost identical to the gear system in WoW, to include the complaining when the people not taking part in the content that grants the rewards decide that they still want the rewards anyway. The major things that make Rift different from WoW are the soul system and the dynamic open world content.
#19 Apr 03 2012 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:


Those would be...a lot of assumptions on your part. The people I talk to are enthusiastic about GW2 for the WvW aspect and the rankings in structured PvP. They like the idea of PvP with meaningful objectives. I didn't say anything at all about consequences for dying, much less heavy consequences.

The gear system in Rift is almost identical to the gear system in WoW, to include the complaining when the people not taking part in the content that grants the rewards decide that they still want the rewards anyway. The major things that make Rift different from WoW are the soul system and the dynamic open world content.


The WvWvW system in GW2 will not make everyone happy. There are alot of people out who believe that capping a castle in a siege should significantly affect how you experience the game. That is the "meaningful" pvp they keep referring to. It is impossible to have that and a pve player base in the same game.

#20 Apr 03 2012 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Puremallace wrote:
Aurelius wrote:


Those would be...a lot of assumptions on your part. The people I talk to are enthusiastic about GW2 for the WvW aspect and the rankings in structured PvP. They like the idea of PvP with meaningful objectives. I didn't say anything at all about consequences for dying, much less heavy consequences.

The gear system in Rift is almost identical to the gear system in WoW, to include the complaining when the people not taking part in the content that grants the rewards decide that they still want the rewards anyway. The major things that make Rift different from WoW are the soul system and the dynamic open world content.


The WvWvW system in GW2 will not make everyone happy. There are alot of people out who believe that capping a castle in a siege should significantly affect how you experience the game. That is the "meaningful" pvp they keep referring to. It is impossible to have that and a pve player base in the same game.



WvW server rankings and the points you earn from them do impact how you experience the game, even for PvEers.

Nobody is saying it will make everyone happy. And for the people who want to buy GW2 without checking out the flood of information coming out about how it works and want to then cry that it's not what they expected, they'll be no different from the pro-RvR crowd in Rift.

I notice your not arguing about Rift's gear system anymore. Probably for the best.
#21 Apr 03 2012 at 10:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:


I notice your not arguing about Rift's gear system anymore. Probably for the best.


I found the grind in Aion for gear more fun then the grind in Rift honestly. Except in Aion once I got the gear it made me a beast and I was extremely useful at a fort raid. If I get rank 40 in Rift I become super pro at Codex lol

The fact they have like 3 pvp servers left is still amazing. It is obvious they come from EQ where pvp took a backseat to pve development. I made multiple suggestion that Atia on Ember Isle would have been a PERFECT Wintergrasp style fort battle, but it was ignored.


Edited, Apr 3rd 2012 12:31pm by Puremallace
#22 Apr 03 2012 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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11,576 posts
Puremallace wrote:
Aurelius wrote:


I notice your not arguing about Rift's gear system anymore. Probably for the best.


I found the grind in Aion for gear more fun then the grind in Rift honestly. Except in Aion once I got the gear it made me a beast and I was extremely useful at a fort raid. If I get rank 40 in Rift I become super pro at Codex lol

The fact they have like 3 pvp servers left is still amazing. It is obvious they come from EQ where pvp took a backseat to pve development. I made multiple suggestion that Atia on Ember Isle would have been a PERFECT Wintergrasp style fort battle, but it was ignored.


I thought you were complaining about PvE gating via gear...
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